LCCA keeps commonfolk out of the game with another $100 Christmas boxcar

I suspect that part of the reason for the higher cost is that a portion of the price is like a "donation" to the club to help keep it self-sufficient. Sort of like bidding on an item at a charity auction.

@RadioRon posted:

I have raised the issue with LCCA leaders in past years regarding how these sky-high prices on annual LCCA Christmas cars leaves most members out of the game.  But again, this year, LCCA has unveiled the 2021 Christmas car: $85 + $13 shipping = $98!  I know prices of everything have risen, but remember the days of the Lionel-run Lionel Railroader Club when special release cars like this were priced close to, or just below, on-the-street retail prices for similar, catalogued boxcars?  Lionel's 2021 catalogued Christmas boxcar lists at $65 & is priced at $46.95 by a major O gauge retailer.  LCCA needs to consider dialing back the fancy deco & try to offer something at "family friendly" prices.

So you pay this on top of a membership fee to get a box car? I mean it's nice and looks really good but that's a hefty price tag to charge your members even after membership fees.  Sure makes me miss the MTH RailRoaders club, a $55 membership included mailed catalogs, a Premier level rolling stock item, and discounts on other items like PS upgrade kits, rolling stock, engines, and other merchandise.

Have you looked at the prices in the latest Lionel catalog???

I agree.  They need to realize the average O-Gauge family is destitute

Yes, that's sarcasm.

On e serious note: If a family has to decide between this boxcar and eating tomorrow, O-Gauge trains is the wrong hobby.   It's not like these things are marketed to the general public.   They are marketed to people with a vested interest in Lionel, and most likely have many trains and the wherewithal to buy

Also, what does "family friendly" price mean?

@RadioRon posted:

I have raised the issue with LCCA leaders in past years regarding how these sky-high prices on annual LCCA Christmas cars leaves most members out of the game.  But again, this year, LCCA has unveiled the 2021 Christmas car: $85 + $13 shipping = $98!  I know prices of everything have risen, but remember the days of the Lionel-run Lionel Railroader Club when special release cars like this were priced close to, or just below, on-the-street retail prices for similar, catalogued boxcars?  Lionel's 2021 catalogued Christmas boxcar lists at $65 & is priced at $46.95 by a major O gauge retailer.  LCCA needs to consider dialing back the fancy deco & try to offer something at "family friendly" prices.

If you think it costs too much, don't buy it.

Pat

With the sale of RMT to Emery Distributors I believe you will see a wide range of affordable rolling stock. Tank and ore cars arriving this year under $30 a car. I wouldn’t be surprised if we see an Christmas boxcar someday.

@EscapeRocks posted:

Also, what does "family friendly" price mean?

I outlined in my post, and gave an example, of what a reasonable price should be for a plastic O gauge boxcar....  somewhere in the $50 range.  This is based on what I said about how Lionel priced similar offerings when it ran its Railroader Club.

@irish rifle posted:

If you think it costs too much, don't buy it.  Pat

Your boilerplate reply lacks insight & is irrelevant to the point I am making.  

More and more people being locked out of the hobby.

@RadioRon posted:

Your boilerplate reply lacks insight & is irrelevant to the point I am making.  

It happens to be my opinion. No need to be a jerk about it in your reply.

Pat

@EscapeRocks posted:

If a family has to decide between this boxcar and eating tomorrow, O-Gauge trains is the wrong hobby.   It's not like these things are marketed to the general public.   They are marketed to people with a vested interest in Lionel, and most likely have many trains and the wherewithal to buy.  What does "family friendly" price mean?

Any analogy comparing buying a $100 boxcar & deciding whether to feed one's family is irrelevant to the point I make.  The LCCA should remember that when it offers a Christmas item priced like this, it is very much in competition for the buyer's dollars to possibly be spent on the dozens of other Christmas pieces offered each year in the O gauge market.  A $100 price tag places it in the price point of operating cars, which provide greater entertainment value.   When Lionel offered similar items via its own Railroader Club, target buyers included "newbie" families who may have just begun their interest in Lionel trains.  This one obviously is not.

@irish rifle posted:

It happens to be my opinion. No need to be a jerk about it in your reply.

Pat

And my opinion is my opinion on what I consider an absurdly priced product.  

@Richie C. posted:

I suspect that part of the reason for the higher cost is that a portion of the price is like a "donation" to the club to help keep it self-sufficient.  Sort of like bidding on an item at a charity auction.

I get you....  but that wasn't an issue when Lionel ran its Railroader Club by itself but managed to offer such items at a price in line with, say, the cataloged Christmas car issued at the same time.  See my price comparison in the initial post.

Like other hobbyists at this Forum, I'm a LCCA member. I can choose to buy club-sponsored products (or not) based on my felt need for it, with the knowledge that some fraction of the price is a boost for the club. Not a problem for me.

Some purchasers of the 2021 LCCA Christmas Boxcar may have a goal of "collecting them all" and intend to run them on their under-the-tree Christmas layout or a "Gee Whiz" holiday shelf display.  To them, price may not be a driving factor. In this hobby, each collector/operator can find satisfaction on their own terms. Or "pass" on an item and seek other products.

It follows from "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder" that "Affordability is in the fold of one's wallet."

Mike Mottler      LCCA 12394

@RadioRon posted:

I get you....  but that wasn't an issue when Lionel ran its Railroader Club by itself but managed to offer such items at a price in line with, say, the cataloged Christmas car issued at the same time.  See my price comparison in the initial post.

Understood, but my hunch is that back then Lionel was able to keep those prices in check by at least partially subsidizing the program (probably, as you suggested, to attract and keep "newbie" families interested in the hobby) and my feeling is that is no longer the case.

In this current economy, where costs are rising and profit margins are generally tight, my guess is that Lionel is no longer willing to subsidize the program either at all or at least to the same extent they may have been doing it in the past and the program must become predominantly self-sufficient and, hence, the higher prices. 

Just my $ 0.02.

Pretty cheap ticket to Tahiti 50 years from now.

----------------

As a side comment... I've been a TCA member for 18 years.  They have annual dues, too.  In addition, they offer special national convention commemorative rolling stock...at similar 'oof!' prices.  I've passed on most of those, but there were a couple that tickled my fancy, I immediately signed up, and the price was no object.  It's simply a choice we should make...for the family, über alles!

This Christmas car 'thing'...gotta get one every year, or else!...is something you're either dedicated to, budgeted for, or no.  Frankly, I think the 2021 LCCA Christmas car deco is AWESOME!...worth a premium, for sure, over the annual Lionel catalogued car.  And, no, I'm not a member of LCCA, and I won't regret not being able to order one.  Ditto the Lionel catalog car.

In keeping with John's (rattler21) comment above, I would take my concern to the next LCCA meeting's Q&A opportunity. 

Finally, postal (USPS) rates are scheduled to increase...AGAIN!... later this month.  Pump prices of fuel around here are a solid $1.00 above last year.  Milk prices, beef prices, lumber prices...you name it...are all higher.  The squeeze is on.  We're all encouraged to reconsider our daily spending choices.

There's no altruism mandates among the hobby providers that I'm aware of.

It is what it is.

KD

@RadioRon posted:

Any analogy comparing buying a $100 boxcar & deciding whether to feed one's family is irrelevant to the point I make.  The LCCA should remember that when it offers a Christmas item priced like this, it is very much in competition for the buyer's dollars to possibly be spent on the dozens of other Christmas pieces offered each year in the O gauge market.  A $100 price tag places it in the price point of operating cars, which provide greater entertainment value.   When Lionel offered similar items via its own Railroader Club, target buyers included "newbie" families who may have just begun their interest in Lionel trains.  This one obviously is not.

Hi Ron,

I completely understand what you're saying, about this item competing with other like items, and that you believe this is priced much to high.  That's okay.

My comments were based on, what seemed on first read(based on the topic title), that  you were coming at it strictly from a "families can't afford this" angle.

Your subsequent replies actually explained better what you were getting at.  In fact, I may actually agree that the price is way up there.

Yes, my analogy was an extreme one, but I didn't know what else to make of your "common folk" and "family friendly" comments which, taken by itself, still has me curious.    Forgetting this particular item, what does family friendly price mean, and who determines the boundaries.

Again, I think most may tacitly agree with your basic premise of the price is too high based on competition.

All good

It looks like a nice Christmas car. I don't think the price is out of line. Certainly cheaper than taking a family of four out for dinner and then a movie afterwards, and this will last longer.

The statement that a substantial portion of the revenue is meant to support the LCCA is correct.  This is true of all the clubs, including, as someone pointed out, the TCA.  Regrettably, the costs of raw materials, labor and shipping have dramatically increased since the LRRC offered their own annual cars, as an additional factor.  This has never really been an inexpensive hobby (unless you are comparing it with owning a sailboat or classic cars), and that's reality.

Since the Christmas cars aren't intended for the rivet counting folks, I agree that the prices need to be kept l little more reasonable - something more in the $50-70 range including shipping.  The cost of LCCA cars is causing me to rethink my membership in that organization.  LCCA has become a marketing arm of Lionel, so the idea of "raising funds for the club" seems less relevant than it once was.

To satisfy my curiosity, I quickly flipped through METCA’s offerings (random choice because they came to mind first). All of their 6464 custom cars are $85-90 + shipping. The LCCA’s pricing seems to be in order with theirs. I believe their president (Stu?) is active on the forum. Maybe he could confirm this, but I would be really surprised if the clubs can even buy the cars for the price suggested by some in this thread ($50), let alone sell them for it. Just my $0.02 worth, and maybe not even worth $0.02.

"LCCA has become a marketing arm of Lionel, so the idea of "raising funds for the club" seems less relevant than it once was."

Do you know that LCCA receives any direct support financially from Lionel?  They have always, obviously been Lionel-centric in their approach, but I believe they are entirely independent both legally and financially from Lionel, as they have always been.

@Rider Sandman posted:

To satisfy my curiosity, I quickly flipped through METCA’s offerings (random choice because they came to mind first). All of their 6464 custom cars are $85-90 + shipping. The LCCA’s pricing seems to be in order with theirs. I believe their president (Stu?) is active on the forum. Maybe he could confirm this, but I would be really surprised if the clubs can even buy the cars for the price suggested by some in this thread ($50), let alone sell them for it. Just my $0.02 worth, and maybe not even worth $0.02.

Don't forget the recent 60th Anniv 6464 type boxcar Metca offering FOR FREE!

Just had to pay $10 shipping

METCA is a great, friendly, group. Always taking the extra step for its members. Right now they are trying to do more in NY/Long Island.

@Mallard4468 posted:

Since the Christmas cars aren't intended for the rivet counting folks, I agree that the prices need to be kept l little more reasonable - something more in the $50-70 range including shipping.  The cost of LCCA cars is causing me to rethink my membership in that organization.  LCCA has become a marketing arm of Lionel, so the idea of "raising funds for the club" seems less relevant than it once was.

If you check out the common auction site you can find Lionel Christmas cars for $9.99 and up. I saw one with Christmas music for around $50.

These cars do not hold any value, most are run one Christmas and sold off afterwards.

Does anyone know the true relationship between Lionel and the LCCA? If I recall correctly, when Lionel stopped the Lionel Rail Roader Club they started "partnering" with the LCCA. LCCA members get the Lionel Catalogs by mail, if not before, at the same time as, they are released to the hobby shops. I like this

Come to think of it, I am really surprised that no one has restarted the MTHRR club as an independent club.

No one mentioned the fact that there is decoration on the roof, that has to be an additional cost, and by the way that has to be one of the best looking Christmas cars ever.      
You know what they say, “any publicity is good publicity”.   I bet this thread has probably helped to sell quite a few of these beauties.

@Keith k posted:

No one mentioned the fact that there is decoration on the roof, that has to be an additional cost, and by the way that has to be one of the best looking Christmas cars ever.      
You know what they say, “any publicity is good publicity”.   I bet this thread has probably helped to sell quite a few of these beauties.

The "Free" METCA car not only has decorations on the roof, but different graphics on each side too.

I don't mean to insinuate that that METCA got this car free - I assume that they reached into their pockets to do something special for their anniversary, for the first 100 members who applied.

All clubs, LCCA, LOTS, etc deserve to make something for their efforts, but with molds that have been around for decades, and modern printing methods, and with LCCA's relationship with Lionel; I would guess that their cost is a lot less than what they are charging.

Someone here said that the profit could be considered a donation to the club (which is a good thing if we want to keep these clubs going) and, as another person said, "If you don't want it, don't buy it

Was the free METCA car for actual members of METCA?   Otherwise the price of MUSA TCA boxcars from the divisions and national are the same as the Christmas car price for LCCA.  And is MSR.  I assume they get a small discount and use the profit to support the club which is fine with me. 

Mike,

Only METCA members, in good standing, were able to secure this beautiful car.

It is a great looking car. Enjoy!

Beautiful car.  While I purchase the divisions' product I have never specifically joined any division of TCA.  Perhaps I should revisit that just to support.