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Legacy - TPC 300 Questions.

SL Soo LineOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Hello

 

My goal is to use the simplest system to operate conventional and command.

The MTH Z1000 will operate all conventional engines including postwar.

It sounds all horns, whistles and bells without some of the usual "slow down" when activating.

However, it requires a sort of "separate operating system".

 

I've watched Mike's video on the setup of Legacy - TPC (300 or 400) and power source.

 

If someone is using this set up:

 

Do the trains slow down when one activates the horn, whistle or bell?

Does the system activate postwar whistles and does the train slow down when doing so?

When using the "red" throttle on Legacy, does the voltage move from zero volts up (or possibly 5 volts to start?).

 

Thank You

Soo Line

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SL Soo LineOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Thanks Big

 

I'm using an MRC Pure Power Dual for power.

This transformer is notorious for slowing down trains when the whistles are blown in conventional mode.

They claim they wanted to protect our sensitive electronics...okay....

MTH Z1000 doesn't do it and my electronics are fine.....

 

I was wondering if when run thru a Legacy/TPC set up if this would compensate for the MRCs shortcoming of the "slow down" effect.

 

Thanks

Soo Line

F FlyBoyOGR Forum Member

I use both the TPC 300 and 400 with an MTH z 4000 as the power. I can use them in either conventional mode or TMCC. I conventional mode you set the transfomer for what ever voltage you want by engaging it prior to activating the TPC. Then, using the red button varoies the amperage and speed of your train(s). I haven't ever noticed a slow down with modern engines when using the horn/whistle, but my old 671 and 726 need a little extra oomph to get the whistles working. I find that using the TPC's in conventional mode gives me greater control over the speed of the engines.

 

regards,

 

Lou

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
When using the TPC400, you've got 20 amps of available powet. Buy an inexpensive multimeter from Lowes or Home Depot and set it on the AC Volts 200 setting and using banana plugs plug it in between the TPC and the track. This will give you real feedback on which voltage you need for conventional ops and TMCC ops. Install an AC amp meter to see what your power demands are, especially when double heading modern diesel engines without guessing about supplying too many amps. The volt meter will let you accurately preset the TPC's especially if you're using multiple TPC's for different power blocks. 
mokemike
lineswest@hotmail.com
SL Soo LineOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Thanks to all who responded.

 

My MRC transformer has a set of volt and amp meters for each side so setting the proper voltage is easily done.  The meters on the MRC make it a good choice in my opinion.

This being said, my MRC, without a compensating "boost" in power, results in the significant slowing down of engines when the horn, whistle or bell is activated in conventional mode.  No issues in command.

 

I tried using my MTH TIU in conventional mode to run conventional engines.

It's hard to get low end control with this method and some conventional engines do not play well.  For instance, I have a recent Lionel CC release where at random the horn will either blow continuously or not blow at all.

 

The only way to date I have found to get around these issues is to take a moment to unplug the banana plugs on the fixed output side of the TIU and plug them into an MTH Z1000. This transformer will operate ALL conventional engines regardless of age flawlessly and without the perverbial "slow down" when using sound.

In addition, I have yet to find a conventional engine that has not played well with this most dependable transformer.  The only drawback is that you are "stuck" with the transformer position.  No handheld to allow moving around while running.

 

I recently watched Mike Rs vid on the use of Legacy/TPC (300 or 400) and power.

This set up will nicely run conventional and command from the Legacy handheld.

I have Legacy.

 

What is not touched on in the vid is weather this set up will eliminate the "slow down" effect I spoke of earlier and if it is user friendly with most conventional engines including postwar.  Since I would still be using the same MRC transformer, can I expect the same results of "slow down" or would the TPC make some compensation for this?

 

I just don't want to buy another piece of equipment (TPC 300) if this set up will not deliver my expected results.

 

So I was hoping that someone who has had the same issue as I and possibly solved it with the Legacy/TPC/power set up might be able to let me know what their results were.

 

I sincerely thank all for any help in this matter.

 

Soo Line 

 

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member

Hello.  I've been reading your TPC 300 problem for just a few days and I'd like to know how many loops of track you have running and the length of each loop.  In addition, if you have any sidings tell me how many and the length of each one.  Also.

what gauge of wire are you using?  How many pickup points on each loop do you have running from the transformer to the sections of each loop/ plus sidings?  Do you have any MTH DCS Proto 2 engines on a loop or siding?  Finally, adding a TPC to whichever transformer you're using will not fix the engines slowing down with the whistle blowing.  Blowing the whistle takes more amperage than you're present configuration can support. If you'll give me the above details, I may be able to assist you without you buying anymore products.

 

mokeman

 

lineswest@hotmail.com

Dale ManquenDale ManquenOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER

The MRC uses diodes to generate the DC voltage required to activate a horn or whistle.  They apparently insert the diodes only when the horn/whistle button is pressed, and this creates a drop in voltage.

The TPC reserves a portion of the full sinewave voltage for activating a horn/whistle.  The "missing component" can be temporarily added in on one half of the sinewave, and an equal amount subracted out on the negative half, yielding no net change.

 

Engines with electronic horns will not slow down with a TPC.  A postwar motorized whistle draws extra current when running, and this extra current may cause some slowdown, depending upon the power source and your track wiring.

SL Soo LineOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

moke

Thank you for your assistance.  I do see where you are coming from but all is well with the layout.  I've checked manually and with an MTH engine running on track signal.  I have good power all the way around and running 9s on the DCS handheld.

You would really have to see how much a dual pullmore motored engine is dragged down when sound is applied to believe how annoying this is.

 

Dale

Thank You for your response and information. 

 

Guess I'm going to go with the TPC for the reasons that Dale indicates and I really don't like the MTH unchangeable option of a starting point of 5 volts.  I know I've been advised to alter the throttle to a lower voltage.  However, on page 129 of Barry's book, he advises to keep the throttle full to avoid chopping the sine wave which would again be chopped by the TIU.  This relates to transformers that chop the sine wave to vary voltage.

The pullmore motors don't mind the 5 volt starts. Their lights are just coming on at 5 volts.  However, the conventional can motored engines do come to an abrubt stop when you fall below 5 volts which is basically...stop.

 

So knowing now that the TPC will at least compensate all or some makes it a good choice for me.  As well, as another poster has indicated, the Legacy/TPC route has a zero volt start point.

 Thanks again Dale.

 

Soo Line

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
Hello, I read your frustration this morning about "toy trains" and all of this bother.
Anyway, there were some things I wanted to share with you before you decided to go with the TPC 300.  I'm not sure of your experience level, so I'll just give you some information and you can use what may be useful to you.
1. MTH engines use about 1.5 amps just sitting on the track and not running.
If you have an ABA lash-up, make that abut 2.8 amps. 2. You can shut your sidings off using a double pole, single throw toggle switch that has both the hot and the common wires connected to it.  Three amps is a lot of power when you're sitting on the bubble of enough to run engines that want amperage for the whistle.  3. From your discussion, your layout isn't that large.  However, you still want to divide it into at least two blocks, using center rail fiber pins for your main loop with one half of the loop controlled by one throttle and the other controlled by the second throttle.  That would give you more volts and amps for the loop that has the whistle engine/s and see if that make the engines slow down during whistle operations. If it fixes the problem, you know it's an amperage problem.  If the problem remains, reconnect the wiring as you have it and then go for the TPC 300.  4. There's another thing about the TPC 300 and TPC 400. Both will increase your available amperage, however; you'll only have about 17.5 volts max.  It's rated at 18 volts, however; some of that voltage is lost to trackage.   Whereas,
a transformer lets yo get to 18 volts and with a Z4000, you can go clear to 22 volts, although 19 volts is the recommended high setting.   Many old Lionel engines with outside armature winding and the older "Pitman" motors will operate
at a setting of 19 volts to start, however; the inefficiency of the older motor (before can motors with a flywheel) draws your transformer down to 16 volts as they start there desired speed setting.  A transformer will allow you to bump that back up to 18 volts, however; the TPC won't allow that bump up correction.  You start with 17.5 volts and that's all you get.   One final question I have.  You mentioned a MTH tape that addressed using the TPC 300 and TPC 400. I've watched the Lionel videos, which are on the OGR Forum, however; where did you see the MTH video.  I went to the MTH web site and there were many videos available, but no TPC video?  Hope just a fraction of this might be news to you.
Please let me know about the MTH video site.    mokeman
 
 
 
 
 

Hello

 

My goal is to use the simplest system to operate conventional and command.

The MTH Z1000 will operate all conventional engines including postwar.

It sounds all horns, whistles and bells without some of the usual "slow down" when activating.

However, it requires a sort of "separate operating system".

 

I've watched Mike's video on the setup of Legacy - TPC (300 or 400) and power source.

 

If someone is using this set up:

 

Do the trains slow down when one activates the horn, whistle or bell?

Does the system activate postwar whistles and does the train slow down when doing so?

When using the "red" throttle on Legacy, does the voltage move from zero volts up (or possibly 5 volts to start?).

 

Thank You

Soo Line

SL Soo LineOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Hello Moke and Thank You for your assistance.

 

The two sidings I have are toggled off.  I find I get a better DCS signal that way and engines are only parked there anyway.  MTH engines on live track are still marking time.

 

My frustration was indeed in a post this morning.  I pulled it.

I'm more frustrated with out of the box failures and poorly engineered items that simply were not thought out.  Both major players are guilty but one is far worse in my opinion.

It consistently seems that the customer is being used as the beta testor.

 

I have since secured and hooked up a TPC 300.  I can honestly report that it was the best decision and works well.  There is no engine slow down when running conventional and sounding.  My Postwar steam engines do need a little more umph to blow the tender whistles but that's okay because I rarely use them.  My postwar diesels work like a charm and the old bicycle horns sound away without issue.

 

My DCS is hooked in as well.  Now conventionals of all sorts (minus the postwar whistle tenders as mentioned above) MTH DCS command and Lionel command all work well.

It's a breeze to shift from command to conventional but you must use the Lionel Legacy hand held to do it.  Five key strokes for command - four for conventional.  Takes 3 seconds to toggle from one to the other.  Of course, once in command I use the MTH hand held for MTH command engines.

 

I'm still using the MRC transformer and so indeed the TPC does compensate almost entirely for the MRCs voltage drop.  As well, I have far greater control from 0 on with the TPC....no more 5 volt starts.

 

I did not mention any vids by MTH and I am not aware of any except the old OGR one on the use of DCS done by Rich.  The vid I was talking about was the one Mike R did explaining the procedure for Legacy/TPC/Power set up.

 

If anyone is trying to solve this issue and has Legacy (you can do it with the Cab 1 but it requires more "stuff") I urge you to watch the vid Mike made and consider a TPC.

 

I must say that Mike R has done a lot for us and Lionel with the introduction of the instructional videos.  If you should see this Mike, great work and please keep it up.

 

Soo Line

 

 

 

Dale ManquenDale ManquenOGR Forum Member MEMORIALIZED MEMBER
Originally Posted by Soo Line:

If anyone is trying to solve this issue and has Legacy (you can do it with the Cab 1 but it requires more "stuff") I urge you to watch the vid Mike made and consider a TPC.

You need the same amount of hardware for either TMCC/CAB-1 or Legacy/CAB-2 - a Base, a Handheld and a cable from the Base's 9-pin to your TPC.  The 9-pin connector from your TPC attaches to either Base.

SL Soo LineOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Dale is correct. 

 

However, if you find yourself in THIS Cab 1 enviroment:

 

Cab 1/Base > Powermaster > Power supply

and you decide to introduce Legacy/Base and drop the Cab 1/Base you will need a bridge.

 

Now you have:

Legacy/Base > Bridge > Powermaster > Power supply

AND you must keep the Bridge and Powermaster 7 feet apart!!

 

I dropped the Bridge and Powermaster earlier and began using the variable channels on my MTH TIU to run conventional.  As I mentioned earlier in this topic, I did not care for the results.

 

Now I have:

Legacy/Base > TPC 300 > Power supply

 

I find this system works very well.

My MTH TIU also wired in very simply.

 

Soo Line

Last edited by Soo Line
M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
Hello.  I'm glad you got everything to work out for you and thanks for the documentation on what finally worked.  I found the video you were talking about and it's by Mike Reagan.  I saw them about two months ago and watched both of them.  Very Helpful, especially linking the TMCC and "CONV" bases together tohave both traditional and TMCC at the same time.  I followed your string of Legacy Base > TPC 300 > Power Supply with no problem, however: you lost me at 
"My MTH TIU also wired in very simply."  The TIU has 4 inputs and 4 outputs or are you talking about the 9 pin plug on the side of the TIU?     I'm having a problem with some older Lionel engines that were before can motors.  I'm using CAB 1, with two TIU's and the older engines will draw the power down from the preset on the Z4000, from 19V to about 16.5 volts and unless I nudge the Z4000 throttle back up to about 18 volts, the engie will run too slowly.  I also have two large loops that are controlled by TPC 400's connected to two each 180 power supplies. The older Lionel will draw the voltage down to 16.5 volts and the engines will run too slow too.  Now that I've seen what you've accomplished with the TPC 300, I was thinking about taking one of the the loops that I've got for conventional operation with the CAB 1 and Command Base and installing one of my Z4000's into one of the TPC 400's in liew of the 2 180 watt power supplies and see if it will hold the Z4000 preset voltage at 19V, without allowing the engines to draw the power down and run too slow. The only problem with that is the command base would no longer be controlling the voltage on that loop, however;
that's not a big deal as I usually set the train speed and then run other things without going back to the conventional loop anyway.      mokemike

Dale is correct. 

 

However, if you find yourself in THIS Cab 1 enviroment:

 

Cab 1/Base > Powermaster > Power supply

and you decide to introduce Legacy/Base and drop the Cab 1/Base you will need a bridge.

 

Now you have:

Legacy/Base > Bridge > Powermaster > Power supply

AND you must keep the Bridge and Powermaster 7 feet apart!!

 

I dropped the Bridge and Powermaster earlier and began using the variable channels on my MTH TIU to run conventional.  As I mentioned earlier in this topic, I did not care for the results.

 

Now I have:

Legacy/Base > TPC 300 > Power supply

 

I find this system works very well.

My MTH TIU also wired in very simply.

 

Soo Line

SL Soo LineOGR Forum Member DIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Moke

 

You are correct in that with my set up and the MRC set to MAX (20 volts), I'm showing 17.6 volts on the rails.

 

My MTH TIU is hooked up to this set up as such on a fixed channel:

 

Transformer > TPC IN,  TPC OUT >TIU IN,  TIU OUT ..TO TRACKS

 

 

I only use one other fixed channel for DC IN to operate MTH HO trains.

 

My variable channels are now idle.

 

Soo Line

 

 

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
Hello, Soo Line.  Please see my new posting in a couple of hours "3rd Rail New E-7 Engines"  That will highlight where my TPC 400 and two 180 watt power bricks are inadequate.   mokemike

Hello Moke

 

You indeed seem to have plenty of power available.

Not sure why you have slow downs.  Given what I've got going, any conventional will fly off the track long before full availability is even applied.

 

Please let us know how you're doing. 

 

Soo Line

M mokemikeOGR Forum Member
Dale, please see my new posting under "3rd Rail New E-7 Engines." and that will list all the data that you're asking for on the TPC 400 and performance problems that I've encountered"  I contacted Scott Mann and he's given me the okay to post the problem in hopes of finding a solution or an error.   mokemike

What is the composition of the trains that are running too slow - engine and rolling stock - lighted cars?  A 180W brick through a TPC should be plenty of voltage.

 

How are your power sources wired to the track?  What gauge wire, length of runs, number of taps/connections?

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