Thinking of going over to 2-rail but I really like Legacy so I wondering if it's possible to keep Legacy RailSounds as the sound system/Legacy as the command system.
Original Post
Replies sorted oldest to newest
Justin,
Legacy has been used in Lionel 'S' Gauge trains, which are 2-Rail, for many, many years.
There's no reason it won't work with 'O'.
You will likely have to stick with AC power though, unlike essentially all of 2-Rail 'O' scale.
Mike
I am one of those S gaugers that use Legacy and the Lionel LCS in two rail. The track power is AC as Mike said. If the layout has reverse loops there are a few minor additional things to assure the Legacy signal gets to all rails after the reverse loop controllers.
@Justin Acuna posted:Thinking of going over to 2-rail but I really like Legacy so I wondering if it's possible to keep Legacy RailSounds as the sound system/Legacy as the command system.
Yes. I have a 2 rail layout that runs on TMCC/Legacy as well as DCS. Power is from Lionel AC bricks. All features are retained.
@AmFlyer posted:I am one of those S gaugers that use Legacy and the Lionel LCS in two rail. The track power is AC as Mike said. If the layout has reverse loops there are a few minor additional things to assure the Legacy signal gets to all rails after the reverse loop controllers.
Could you elaborate on "a few minor additional things"?
@John Sethian posted:Yes. I have a 2 rail layout that runs on TMCC/Legacy as well as DCS. Power is from Lionel AC bricks. All features are retained.
That's good to know
@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:Justin,
Legacy has been used in Lionel 'S' Gauge trains, which are 2-Rail, for many, many years.
There's no reason it won't work with 'O'.
You will likely have to stick with AC power though, unlike essentially all of 2-Rail 'O' scale.
Mike
Is there a drawback to sticking with AC?
Well, yes, but the Lionel stuff works on AC, and not DC. It is "traditional."
Disadvantages -
1 - need a rectifier in each locomotive, instead of one at the transformer.
2 - need a complicated reversing circuit in each locomotive, instead of a single dpdt switch at the transformer.
3 - cannot operate most 2-rail equipment on AC.
I am sure I missed one or two.
@Justin Acuna posted:Is there a drawback to sticking with AC?
Biggest drawback is you can’t run DC and AC trains together. You either have to convert all your trains to AC or park them and switch to DC power to run the ones that have not been converted. Not unlike a 3 railer with some command control engines and some that run on conventional variable AC.
Pete
Justin, when there are reverse loops in two rail layouts both rails need to be gapped at each end of the reverse loop. The track between the gaps is supplied by a reverse loop controller. If that controller is a simple DPDT switch there is no problem. When using automatic reverse loop sensor controllers such as the PSX-AR-AC the Legacy signal may not be transmitted through the controller. The simple fix is to connect a .1mfd capacitor across the rail gap. This allows the Legacy signal to pass but blocks the 60Hz power preventing a short circuit.
Not related to use of Legacy but for many types of two rail turnouts with metal frogs a relay will be required to flip the power connection to the frog when the turnout is thrown. If using a DCC power/control system this function can be performed with a device called a Frog Juicer. In 10A AC systems there is no equivalent device so usually relays are used.
@bob2 posted:Well, yes, but the Lionel stuff works on AC, and not DC. It is "traditional."
Disadvantages -
1 - need a rectifier in each locomotive, instead of one at the transformer.
2 - need a complicated reversing circuit in each locomotive, instead of a single dpdt switch at the transformer.
3 - cannot operate most 2-rail equipment on AC.
I am sure I missed one or two.
That sounds like another 2+ hours of work on each locomotive on top of rewiring it and switching out the wheels.
@AmFlyer posted:Justin, when there are reverse loops in two rail layouts both rails need to be gapped at each end of the reverse loop. The track between the gaps is supplied by a reverse loop controller. If that controller is a simple DPDT switch there is no problem. When using automatic reverse loop sensor controllers such as the PSX-AR-AC the Legacy signal may not be transmitted through the controller. The simple fix is to connect a .01mfd capacitor across the rail gap. This allows the Legacy signal to pass but blocks the 60Hz power preventing a short circuit.
Not related to use of Legacy but for many types of two rail turnouts with metal frogs a relay will be required to flip the power connection to the frog when the turnout is thrown. If using a DCC power/control system this function can be performed with a device called a Frog Juicer. In 10A AC systems there is no equivalent device so usually relays are used.
That's good to know
@AmFlyer posted:Justin, when there are reverse loops in two rail layouts both rails need to be gapped at each end of the reverse loop. The track between the gaps is supplied by a reverse loop controller. If that controller is a simple DPDT switch there is no problem. When using automatic reverse loop sensor controllers such as the PSX-AR-AC the Legacy signal may not be transmitted through the controller. The simple fix is to connect a .01mfd capacitor across the rail gap. This allows the Legacy signal to pass but blocks the 60Hz power preventing a short circuit.
Not related to use of Legacy but for many types of two rail turnouts with metal frogs a relay will be required to flip the power connection to the frog when the turnout is thrown. If using a DCC power/control system this function can be performed with a device called a Frog Juicer. In 10A AC systems there is no equivalent device so usually relays are used.
Is there a recommended brand for relays?
I just used 12VDC relays with minimum 10A rated contacts. Do not recall the brand off hand but can look when I get home this weekend. I do have sockets for the relays so in the event one fails or is damaged it is simple to unplug the relay and just plug in a replacement. I have only had one fail in 5 years and that was my stupidity accidentally hitting it when I was under the layout.
@AmFlyer posted:I just used 12VDC relays with minimum 10A rated contacts. Do not recall the brand off hand but can look when I get home this weekend. I do have sockets for the relays so in the event one fails or is damaged it is simple to unplug the relay and just plug in a replacement. I have only had one fail in 5 years and that was my stupidity accidentally hitting it when I was under the layout.
It's reassuring that they don't fail to often.
I have about 50 of those relays, none have failed other than the one I damaged.
@Justin Acuna posted:Thinking of going over to 2-rail but I really like Legacy so I wondering if it's possible to keep Legacy RailSounds as the sound system/Legacy as the command system.
It's a bit complicated. First, in the literal sense, there's nothing about two-rail or three-rail that prevents any system from being used -- it's merely how the electricity is delivered to the locomotive's innards. I briefly looked at DCC for some of my older 3-rail locomotives with can motors.
That said, Legacy/TMCC requires AC as a carrier, so you'd be running 2-rail AC. For a proper Legacy/TMCC "halo" you'd need to install .1uF ceramic capacitors onto the Legacy/TMCC base lead and connect the other ends to both rails. This puts the signal on both rails without shorting the voltage (the signal's higher frequency hops across the capacitors, but the power's low frequency can't).
You CAN run different voltage/system sources to your track using selector switches leading to your track buss. I'm designing hybrid layout right now as I have a ton of 3-rail only locomotives, plus a couple of 2-rail-only locomotives (one with DCC), so I'll be feeding things with a combination of selector switches. If you're careful, it will work. As mentioned above, you'd probably want to use relays to handle your reverse loops as auto-switch circuit boards may have issues handling AC.
@AGHRMatt posted:That said, Legacy/TMCC requires AC as a carrier, so you'd be running 2-rail AC. For a proper Legacy/TMCC "halo" you'd need to install .1uF ceramic capacitors onto the Legacy/TMCC base lead and connect the other ends to both rails. This puts the signal on both rails without shorting the voltage (the signal's higher frequency hops across the capacitors, but the power's low frequency can't).
Matt, I do not agree with the need to connect the base lead to both rails and the subsequent necessity of the caps. On my 2 rail layout I connect the base lead to only one rail and everything works fine. Just be sure it is electrically the same rail!
If you have reverse loops, you will need caps across the rail gaps in the reverse loop.
Probably a stupid question but what's the wiring setup for turntables?
I used capacitors to put the Legacy signal on both rails. It is usually not necessary to do that.
Two rail layout turntables may require a reverse loop controller. It depends on the design of the power supply to the bridge rails. My turntable requires a reverse loop controller.
Matt, the PSX-AR-AC reverse loop controllers are specifically made for use in high current AC layouts.
@John Sethian posted:Matt, I do not agree with the need to connect the base lead to both rails and the subsequent necessity of the caps. On my 2 rail layout I connect the base lead to only one rail and everything works fine. Just be sure it is electrically the same rail!
If you have reverse loops, you will need caps across the rail gaps in the reverse loop.
It's a safeguard. Some engines have issues with only one rail carrying the TMCC signal. It manifests itself typically when an insulated running rail on a single main is used to trigger block signals in a 3-rail context. It's dependent on the antenna setup within the locomotives and was especially bad on steam locomotives that used one of the handrails as an antenna. Bob Bartizek used a "TMCC signal wire" underneath the scenery next to insulated rails to function as the track antenna. We ended up tying the running rails together and using optical triggering due to an issue with MTH 3/2 stem engines when the hit some block gaps (another issue for another thread).
One thing that helps with your layout is the broad curves and multiple tracks providing an additional signal source (which look great by the way).
Matt
You make a good point about adding it as a safeguard. I understand.
But Bob's method is probably the surest. And if you are building the layout from scratch, why not just add it when you build it? A solid 14 gauge wire stapled to the subroadbed that can then be ballasted over is the cleanest way to go, in my opinion.
Of course, another option is to erect catenary everywhere.....JUST KIDDING!
@AmFlyer posted:I am one of those S gaugers that use Legacy and the Lionel LCS in two rail. The track power is AC as Mike said. If the layout has reverse loops there are a few minor additional things to assure the Legacy signal gets to all rails after the reverse loop controllers.
How did you rewire the power for the locomotive? I've looked around the forum but haven't been able to find a good explanation that I understand.
Again , you simply take the wires that go to the center rollers and hook them to whatever contacts the insulated wheels. It is as simple as that.
On the other hand, I suspect you are not aware of the insulation required for 2-rail. That is a whole 'nother, very complicated story. Has nothing to do with Legacy, and requires machine work.
@bob2 posted:Again , you simply take the wires that go to the center rollers and hook them to whatever contacts the insulated wheels. It is as simple as that.
On the other hand, I suspect you are not aware of the insulation required for 2-rail. That is a whole 'nother, very complicated story. Has nothing to do with Legacy, and requires machine work.
That part I read about and figured I'll need a 9" lathe for. I just wasn't sure about the actual rewiring until you responded.
@bob2 posted:Again , you simply take the wires that go to the center rollers and hook them to whatever contacts the insulated wheels. It is as simple as that.
On the other hand, I suspect you are not aware of the insulation required for 2-rail. That is a whole 'nother, very complicated story. Has nothing to do with Legacy, and requires machine work.
On the subject of machining new wheels, do you know where the steel can be bought?
While we all know that TMCC/Legacy will certainly work fine on a 2 rail layout I am more interested in your plans to mechanically convert your Lionel equipment. Are you going to keep the large 3 rail type flanges and use Gargraves track or some other type of 3 rail track without a center rail or do you plan to use typical 2 rail wheels that follow NMRA Standards that run on 2 rail track? Either way your wheels must be insulated for 2 rail operation unless you are going to use battery power. Rolling stock is usually easy to convert but locomotives are more difficult. Diesels are easier than steam.
I have always said this if Lionel had come out with a small line of 2 rail trains to compete with MTH when MTH entered the 2 rail market for the second time with the scale wheeled models it would have been big boost to 2 rail and things would be much easier now for guys like Justin. Sure, many of the old timers in 2 rail would have shunned the Lionel products but guys like me and others would have bought some. Overall it would have been good for 2 rail and I think there would be a loyal following for the Lionel 2 rail products assuming that they had the same features as the 3 rail models along DCC compatibility like they have in S scale. All opinion.
Sorry, I see your answer above. I would love to learn how to use a lathe but I just have too many projects now to start learning another whole skill set. Maybe some day when I retire. Please keep us posted on your conversions.
@Hudson J1e posted:While we all know that TMCC/Legacy will certainly work fine on a 2 rail layout I am more interested in your plans to mechanically convert your Lionel equipment. Are you going to keep the large 3 rail type flanges and use Gargraves track or some other type of 3 rail track without a center rail or do you plan to use typical 2 rail wheels that follow NMRA Standards that run on 2 rail track? Either way your wheels must be insulated for 2 rail operation unless you are going to use battery power. Rolling stock is usually easy to convert but locomotives are more difficult. Diesels are easier than steam.
I have always said this if Lionel had come out with a small line of 2 rail trains to compete with MTH when MTH entered the 2 rail market for the second time with the scale wheeled models it would have been big boost to 2 rail and things would be much easier now for guys like Justin. Sure, many of the old timers in 2 rail would have shunned the Lionel products but guys like me and others would have bought some. Overall it would have been good for 2 rail and I think there would be a loyal following for the Lionel 2 rail products assuming that they had the same features as the 3 rail models along DCC compatibility like they have in S scale. All opinion.
Yeah, it is a shame Lionel didn't go down that path. I'll probably use 2 rail wheels that follow NMRA standards. For steam engines, is it harder because all the running gear has to be taken off before you can take the wheels off or is there another reason.
@Justin Acuna posted:Yeah, it is a shame Lionel didn't go down that path. I'll probably use 2 rail wheels that follow NMRA standards. For steam engines, is it harder because all the running gear has to be taken off before you can take the wheels off or is there another reason.
That is part of it but even after after you insulate and machine new wheels you have to “quarter” them properly. I believe this means that each wheel must be exactly 90 degrees off from the wheel on the side opposite it. If even one wheel is not quartered correctly the mechanism will bind.
@Hudson J1e posted:That is part of it but even after after you insulate and machine new wheels you have to “quarter” them properly. I believe this means that each wheel must be exactly 90 degrees off from the wheel on the side opposite it. If even one wheel is not quartered correctly the mechanism will bind.
I totally forgot about that part...
That is really the easy part.
you can machine driver tires from iron pipe - plumbers use it on big jobs. Or you can buy "Leadloy" from McMaster-Carr.
You need to trim the back side of each driver - 2-rail wheels are lots thinner.
The drivers do not need to be exactly 90 degrees, but they all have to be the same within roughly .001. I measure that with cellophane when assembling.
A 9" South Bend is a minimum - don't even try it with something smaller.
@bob2 posted:That is really the easy part.
you can machine driver tires from iron pipe - plumbers use it on big jobs. Or you can buy "Leadloy" from McMaster-Carr.
You need to trim the back side of each driver - 2-rail wheels are lots thinner.
The drivers do not need to be exactly 90 degrees, but they all have to be the same within roughly .001. I measure that with cellophane when assembling.
A 9" South Bend is a minimum - don't even try it with something smaller.
Thanks Bob, that answered a key question I had floating in my mind.
@Justin Acuna posted:On the subject of machining new wheels, do you know where the steel can be bought?
For my automotive projects, I've had good results buying material (steel, aluminum, copper) from Metal Supermarkets.
Would a 2" diameter pipe be sufficient?
What exactly are you two-railing? Two inches is eight feet, or 84" in O Scale - suitable only for an ATSF Hudson. On the other hand, pipe is specified by ID, so 2" pipe would be too large for anything in O Scale.
@bob2 posted:What exactly are you two-railing? Two inches is eight feet, or 84" in O Scale - suitable only for an ATSF Hudson. On the other hand, pipe is specified by ID, so 2" pipe would be too large for anything in O Scale.
If I do decide to go to 2 rail, as small as a 2-8-0 to as large as an AC-12
@bob2 posted:What exactly are you two-railing? Two inches is eight feet, or 84" in O Scale - suitable only for an ATSF Hudson. On the other hand, pipe is specified by ID, so 2" pipe would be too large for anything in O Scale.
Ummm, pretty sure eight feet is 96", in any scale....
You are right - thinking about 84" drivers and got locked in.
Way, way cheaper to buy a 2-rail model and add the Legacy. Also easier.
