Legacy Conversion Williams Brass N&W J Class #611

@Sid's Trains posted:

Ok, this has gone way off what I originally intended. I am glad you all mentioned to me the idea of a different motor with a different stall current. The Mabuchi will obviously not work with the legacy electronics. Currently I do not have a motor to put on the chassis, so to pass the time I am just working on cosmetics and the tenders electronics. I do not want to put a MTH chassis underneath this locomotive as that defeats the entire purpose and makes me feel like I just gave up. Also just because I am young doesn't mean I don't know stuff. I have a bunch of knowledge and experience for someone my age. I learned from the best. I truly know for the most part what I am doing and am not going to just go off willy nilly and try to run the thing. Like Bruk said I am learning and this thing isn't meant to be a tank. I don't need it to pull a 20lb weight. It is still at the end of the day a brass model which I think we should all know are not the best pullers or performers. In the end I am just trying to have fun and do what I want. This is not my first rodeo dealing with these electronics and it sure won't be my last.

Well, then have a ball, and enjoy yourself.......

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

I might pick on ol’ John, ( truth be told we’re probably the same age group) but he’s a very smart man....I read what he posts, and put all the info in the memory bank,....you’ll never know when you might rely on it....read what he posted on his reply, and retain it....

Pat

Well Shucks, Pat. Don't make me blush this time of night. Runs my blood pressure up I'll be running to the head all night.          j

@harmonyards posted:

Ain’t nobody holdin’ a gun to the boy’s head Bruk, sound advice is sound advice.....take it or leave it......last time I checked, Lionel don’t take back smoked up boards.....they tend to frown upon that......

Pat

The Legacy boards have a fail safe feature were if the motor draws to much it throws the code and cab light blinks. You have a couple attempts till you actually damage something. So if he over draws the board will say "no”

Lionel frowns on everything we are doing by adding LEGACY to items. They have been anti “upgrades” since the beginning for a reason. They aren’t taking anything back if they knew what why the board failed.

Everything we do with the these electronics is taking a risk. Its apart of this game.

@Norton posted:

The main difference between the 550 and 555 is the 550 is three pole and the 555 is 5 pole so it should run a bit smoother but check the stall current. I think both are 10 amps plus!!!

Pete

This probably applies to the 550, 555 as well as most other Mabuchi motors and their knockoffs.  Each size comes in a multitude of different windings and their stall current at say 12v will vary with their static resistance which can run from under one ohm to over 50 ohms. At 12v a 50 Ohm static resistance motor will pull less than 1/4 amp at stall where a 1 ohm motor will pull 12amps.  This is what that extra writing after  550,  550-xxxx is all about.  It tells what winding is in the 550 motor frame.   So if you know the current draw at a given voltage you can compute the static resistance or if you know the resistance you can compute the current draw at that same voltage.  If you change the voltage the current will change at the same ratio as the voltage change as long as the resistance stays the same.

   So Sid,  if you have a dc power supply run that 555 at 6v ~ 8v for ten ~ fifteen minutes, with no load, to set the brushes. You can use the electronic E- unit that came in the J if you do not have a good dc power supply (or a battery charger if it has a 6v /12v switch at 6v don't run it in at 12v)  Then measure the static resistance like I describe in the first message. Measure five or six times spinning the armature by hand between each measurement. Then average all your readings.  if you measure 1 ohm that motor will pull 12A at 12V when stalled you can use it for a drill motor.   If you measure 2 ohms it will pull 6A at 12v.  If it measures 3 ohms it will pull 4A at 12V. 4 ohms gives 3A at 12v stalled.  I know little about the Legacy boards however I bet their current capabilities are not too different than TMCC driver boards and most of them can handle an 8A stall for a short time.  Train America Studios even had some 15A boards that could drive four 385 motors and survive a stall.  If your 555 has a static resistance between 2 and 3 ohms you are likely OK if you use it with your Legacy driver board.  Above 3 ohms you will be cutting into your maximum speed and power output that your driver board can supply.  Though it is safe to use you just loose some top speed and a little pulling power.  Most of the sellers in china do not give the stall current at rated voltage or the static resistance however Mops Electric on eBay does for most if not all the motors they sell.   I sure hope your J has the 21:1 gearbox so much easier to deal with. The 42:1 gearbox alone makes a considerable amount of noise. One thought I keep having, though I have not personally tried, is a Pittman rated at 8~9v might get along well with that crazy gear ratio. It will be operating at the low end of it's torque curve and never heavily loaded even at 12v.  That 42:1 gear ratio may eat rpm but it is a beast for torque at the wheels.                       j

@JohnActon posted:

This probably applies to the 550, 555 as well as most other Mabuchi motors and their knockoffs.  Each size comes in a multitude of different windings and their stall current at say 12v will vary with their static resistance which can run from under one ohm to over 50 ohms. At 12v a 50 Ohm static resistance motor will pull less than 1/4 amp at stall where a 1 ohm motor will pull 12amps.  This is what that extra writing after  550,  550-xxxx is all about.  It tells what winding is in the 550 motor frame.   So if you know the current draw at a given voltage you can compute the static resistance or if you know the resistance you can compute the current draw at that same voltage.  If you change the voltage the current will change at the same ratio as the voltage change as long as the resistance stays the same.

   So Sid,  if you have a dc power supply run that 555 at 6v ~ 8v for ten ~ fifteen minutes, with no load, to set the brushes. You can use the electronic E- unit that came in the J if you do not have a good dc power supply (or a battery charger if it has a 6v /12v switch at 6v don't run it in at 12v)  Then measure the static resistance like I describe in the first message. Measure five or six times spinning the armature by hand between each measurement. Then average all your readings.  if you measure 1 ohm that motor will pull 12A at 12V when stalled you can use it for a drill motor.   If you measure 2 ohms it will pull 6A at 12v.  If it measures 3 ohms it will pull 4A at 12V. 4 ohms gives 3A at 12v stalled.  I know little about the Legacy boards however I bet their current capabilities are not too different than TMCC driver boards and most of them can handle an 8A stall for a short time.  Train America Studios even had some 15A boards that could drive four 385 motors and survive a stall.  If your 555 has a static resistance between 2 and 3 ohms you are likely OK if you use it with your Legacy driver board.  Above 3 ohms you will be cutting into your maximum speed and power output that your driver board can supply.  Though it is safe to use you just loose some top speed and a little pulling power.  Most of the sellers in china do not give the stall current at rated voltage or the static resistance however Mops Electric on eBay does for most if not all the motors they sell.   I sure hope your J has the 21:1 gearbox so much easier to deal with. The 42:1 gearbox alone makes a considerable amount of noise. One thought I keep having, though I have not personally tried, is a Pittman rated at 8~9v might get along well with that crazy gear ratio. It will be operating at the low end of it's torque curve and never heavily loaded even at 12v.  That 42:1 gear ratio may eat rpm but it is a beast for torque at the wheels.                       j

I will try and do what you said just to see, but the ebay ad did say 11.7a stall current which is considerably high. My J does have the 42:1 gearbox, but I have done some things to make the entire chassis quieter which actually helped out a lot. I also don't plan to run the thing at a million speed steps. I am still going to buy a new motor, but will do some testing as you said.

Sid I am going to work on a related reply in another thread today and put it under the "What's on your workbench" thread.  A project that I have been working on for a couple of months I wanted the 21:1 gearbox out of my Williams L1s  Mikado to put in my J so I transferred the 42:1 into the Mikado.  I first put a Maxon coreless motor in the chassis and it really ran fine with zero motor noise but I had a difficult time mounting a flywheel on it and I wanted to put a tach reader on the flywheel.  I removed the coreless and put a Mabuchi 385 rated at 2 ohms static and 12,500 at 12v that would give a stall current of 6a at 12v which is right on target for most TMCC motor driver boards.  First time I read your original post I missed the 11a stall on your Mabuchi. That is playing with fire for most motor driver boards and is about the same static resistance as the original motor. Your motor would have a static resistance of about 1.1 ohm I think the one I pulled from my J was .9 ohm. WHAT WERE THEY THINKING ?  $.   That kind of current draw eats pick-up rollers as well as your track.  I will try and get the post up before I go to bed tonight, earlier if possible.          j

While Mabuchi will likely make custom windings for their customers, their catalog only lists two variations. One with a 3.8 amp stall current and with a 10.9 amp stall. The former is listed as a 24 volt motor. I suspect you would have to do some digging as the 12v 11 amp motor seems to be the more common version at the auction sites

https://product.mabuchi-motor.com/detail.html?id=119

https://product.mabuchi-motor.com/detail.html?id=120

Pete

Here is an update. The setup in this clip is very crude looking, but functional. The sounds are all hooked up and the motor is connected. The Mabuchi 555 works perfectly with the BEMC. No codes thrown or anything. I do admit the motor is loud at high speeds which is why I will be installing a new motor. But for all of you who said it wouldn't work, you were wrong. You really need to not judge a book by its cover. This 44:1 gearbox is actually really good for this setup and is extremely quiet. The loud part is the motor. This thing is an amazing model and I can't wait for this to keep developing.

Well here is a little update on the J. I got the new motor installed. I swapped an MTH flywheel on and put the Williams coupling on it. For those of you who are wondering, yes that is a Cannon motor. I'm giving it a chance and if it fails, I learned my lesson. Chuff switch and smoke unit comes next.

Nice job Sid your doing another nice job.  Keep up the good work!

Sid, I'd put a PTC in series with that Canon motor.  I've had three Legacy locomotives come in at various times with shorted Canon motors, two of the three smoked the RCMC, the 3rd I was able to replace the FET and rescue the RCMC.  I'd be looking for around a 2A trip PTC, that will give you peak current of 3 amps or more to the motor for 20-30 seconds, more than enough for any normal running.

The RCMC does sense motor overloads, but Jon Z. informed me that a total short was not always detected and could indeed cook the RCMC, and I have living proof that it can happen, multiple times!

The Canon motors are junk, and I'd reconsider the idea of using it.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sid, I'd put a PTC in series with that Canon motor.  I've had three Legacy locomotives come in at various times with shorted Canon motors, two of the three smoked the RCMC, the 3rd I was able to replace the FET and rescue the RCMC.  I'd be looking for around a 2A trip PTC, that will give you peak current of 3 amps or more to the motor for 20-30 seconds, more than enough for any normal running.

The RCMC does sense motor overloads, but Jon Z. informed me that a total short was not always detected and could indeed cook the RCMC, and I have living proof that it can happen, multiple times!

The Canon motors are junk, and I'd reconsider the idea of using it.

Well it isn't to late. This flywheel can easily mate up to a Pittman. It would be just a basic swap. I will look for a 12v Pittman from Lionel.

You can thank me in the morning!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can thank me in the morning!

Might as well ask, is this one good?

Pittman would be best but the 555 with a PTC would be a better choice than a Canon. These at least have a decent track record of not destroying themselves.

I put ERR in a Williams Niagara with a 555 for a local club that has been running it at least hundreds of hours if not thousands with no problems other than tires.

Thats a good Pittman. Its a 61 mm one though so check the space you have. Numbers ending with 33 are 56mm.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Pittman would be best but the 555 with a PTC woukd be a better choice than a Canon. These at least have a decent track record of not destroying themselves.

I put ERR in a Williams Niagara with a 555 for a local club that has been running it at least hundreds of hours if not thousands with no problems other than tires.

Pete

The 555 doesn't work with my electronics setup. The stall is way to high and trips the legacy circuit and puts it into safety mode.

Sid, the Mabuchi 555's are not all created equal.  There are a ton of variations of them, I've seen some that have high currents, and others that just sip power.  However, all things being equal, I'd still go for the Pittman if you can fit it in.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Sid, the Mabuchi 555's are not all created equal.  There are a ton of variations of them, I've seen some that have high currents, and others that just sip power.  However, all things being equal, I'd still go for the Pittman if you can fit it in.

Yep. I'm going to order the one I showed above. I will give an update when it comes in. I don't expect much in the way of mods as it should bolt on once I have the some new holes drilled.

Here is a little update on the J. Got a Pittman installed and it runs nice and smooth.

Nice. Glad to see it fit!

I have made some big leaps with this upgrade. I have installed the new Pittman motor, solved some BEMC mysteries, and installed the hall sensor. I mounted it next to the driver and mounted magnets at 12 3 6 9. This thing is so smooth with the 44:1 gear ratio. I'm really looking forward to getting stack and whistle steam installed in this.

You are a genius!!! I have the Williams J. Even though its old. It is one of my favorites.John

Great work Sid, ....that’s not an easy group of locomotives to tame,....

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Great work Sid, ....that’s not an easy group of locomotives to tame,....

Pat

You can say that again haha. It took some work, but wow is it well worth it.

Just a thought...I also have a Williams brass 611 with original motor and gearing.  I converted mine to BPRC using a 12v 2000mah NiMh battery and the Deltang receiver is either 3 or 6A max (I'd have to open up the tender to be sure which Rx is inside), but I've never had it stall yet.  When I first had the idea to BPRC it I measured the current and seems like it was 1-1.25A max and I know I have pulled at least 14 unlit passenger cars with it.

All I have wired in are head and rear lights, no markers or class lights (yet) and no sound or smoke.  Sound doesn't soak up a lot of amps anyway, don't know about smoke because I refuse to use it.

And yes, the paint job on the J is glossy not flat.  My Williams J has a rough paint job on the nose, I believed caused by heat from the old bulbs used.

Excellent job by the way

Seems nice and smooth. What Pittman did you end up going with, since it still has the factory 44:1 gearing?

@Sid's Trains Nice work!  For my $.02 I would have used a larger flywheel, one equal to the diameter of the motor.  Stored energy is proportionate to the flywheel diameter AND rpm (which is another good reason to keep the original gearbox!)

I'm late to this party.  One important fact that no one thought to mention is that the stall current of a motor is only relevant if it's actually allowed to stall.  Rubber tires are a devil's bargain.  Scale loco builders don't use them.  Instead they weight a loco properly, so that when it's overloaded the wheels are still able to spin.  If you measure the motor current under these conditions, it will probably be a lot less than 11 amps!  Rubber tires also don't allow the wheels to skid.  So when the loco enters a sharp "toy-train" curve, there's a rapid and tremendous increase in friction.  These Williams brass locos are more flexible than MTH with their tight wheel gauging and one-piece side rods.  But when it happens, stored energy in the flywheel and plenty of motor RPM keep the loco from slowing unnaturally, without requiring some kind of closed-loop speed control.  If you don't believe me, turn the speed control "off" and experiment for yourself!

I know that the 42:1 gearbox has more enemies than friends on this Forum, but hopefully there's room for more than one opinion, and mine is that it's not a bad thing.  30:1 or 35:1 might be ideal, but it's ok to err on the high side.  I personally have no use for high top speeds; if that's what you want, most of the locos out there run that way out of the box.  You did well to keep it.  It might allow the motor to slip the wheels even with four of those #$@^#$ tires, hence my comment about measuring max current draw in use.  Welcome and look forward to seeing more of your work on the Forum!

The Cruise Commander will have no problem at all with the Pittman motor, I've installed it in many locomotives with Pittman motors.

@Robbin posted:

Hi Folks, I have a brass Williams J that I want to convert to Lionel Odyssey.  I had emailed Electric Railroad and gotten the recommendation of the Cruise Commander and Railsounds Commander Kit.  I had no knowledge of the motor issue you all are discussing here.  I see the Pittman 12v motors offered by Lionel.   I am willing to buy the motor directly and replace what is in the engine.  Has anyone done this replacement along with the ERR boards as well?  Any advice?

Thanks!!

A Cruise Commander will work with either motor. Before ordering a Pittman, check how much room you have in the engine behind the existing motor. A Pittman 9433 is close to the same length as the existing Mabuchi but a 9434 is about 5 mm longer. Lionel pictures the 12 and 15v motors so you can read each model. Rather than pick a motor by voltage pick it by size. If you have room for a 9434 then it obviously doesn’t matter which one you pick. There is little performance difference between the two voltage ratings. Maybe a bit more low end torque with a 12 v.

Pete

Thanks to you both!  I removed the original post (I am technologically challenged and had not seen there was a page 2) because after seeing page 2 I thought my question probably had been covered.  But you all had very helpful suggestions and comments.  Thanks!

Sid,

Your doing great with your upgrades.  I read through the detailed posts in this thread, they are all informative.  Let me toss in some of my advice, as the designer of the BEMC, RCMC, Cruise Commander, etc.....

Cannon motors tend to fail in ways that take out the electronics.

Mabuchi and Pittman are great motors for our trains; and the Pittman normally has higher stall currents.

The BEMC has MOSFETS that can handle any of the above motors.  The Bridge must have a heatsink, or it will overheat.  Overheating the bridge is guaranteed to damage the balance of the motor driver (MOSFETS).

The BEMC does *not* detect stalls; the RCMC does.  However both designs do *not* apply full power (high current) at low speeds; which tends to protect the motor driver circuits.  Typically the limiting the power to the track is your best protection method for the trains; ie: ZWL or GW-180 which act quickly to remove power in case of an overload.

If you reach a stall current on any Legacy or ElectricRR boards, the MOSFETS will fry in short order.  The best way to protect the board is with the polyfuse that GRJ mentions.

Experiment, burn a few boards up, learn, and enjoy running your trains. 

@SantaFeFan posted:

Experiment, burn a few boards up, learn, and enjoy running your trains.

Gosh, I'm all set!  I've lost count of all the boards I've cooked over the years!  I'm good for one or two most years!

Well it has been a long while since I gave an update on the engine. It has come a long way since I last showed it. I have also learned some stuff about the BEMC setup along the way. The locomotive is now for the most part complete. It has all the electronics installed, smoke unit installed with 3D printed funnel and a 3D printed whistle steam elbow. Cosmetically it has the Lionel markers as I showed before, a new coal load added, and I blackened the drivers for a more accurate look. I love how this has come out. I have some pictures and a video below. The 44:1 makes it run so smoothly and at nice slow speeds. I can of course crank up the speeds and have it go faster. Sound wise the fat boy does its job with a ton of bass and echo. Finally the smoke unit is fantastic and works well for the stack and whistle. Overall its outstanding and IMO one of the best 611's out there. Tell me what you think and enjoy the video.

That steam whistle is awesome. I have a Williams J with Proto 3 in it. The blackened Drivers make a huge difference.

I am upgrading a few MTH Premier 4-8-4 PS1 with ERR boards, so not sure if I could add a steam whistle but love its sound.

What exactly did you learn about the BEMC?  I happen to have several of them, and I was contemplating using them in an upgrade.  Since they have a whistle smoke connection, it would be fun to add that as well.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

What exactly did you learn about the BEMC?  I happen to have several of them, and I was contemplating using them in an upgrade.  Since they have a whistle smoke connection, it would be fun to add that as well.

You must have a common ground link between the BEMC and RCDR (hard wired). Also you need to use a hall sensor that locks and holds the circuit open or closed when the chuff is activated via magnetic. Mounting the magnet on the driver's is the best option IMO. Make sure to use 16ohm resistors for the whistle and stack steam if you do use this setup.

Well, I'd probably use my Chuff-Generator to do the chuff, it has an open drain FET to trigger the chuffs.  I can vary the time it holds the chuff to anything I like with a couple of lines of code.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I'd probably use my Chuff-Generator to do the chuff, it has an open drain FET to trigger the chuffs.  I can vary the time it holds the chuff to anything I like with a couple of lines of code.

Well I used the chuff generator and it didn't work. It gave a double chuff like what a articulated would have. You and I had some emails a while back on that.

Sid, that is by far the best running Williams I’ve ever seen!….fantastic job!!….I had my doubts about the 44:1 gearbox, but you sure whipped it into shape,…..my jaw hit the ground,…you’ve tamed the best,….you got my vote!…🤯

BTW, I knew you had gone back & forth with motor swaps on that engine, so which one did you finally settle on?….whatever you did, keep the recipe handy!…that’s a winner,….looks really good too!!..

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Sid, that is by far the best running Williams I’ve ever seen!….fantastic job!!….I had my doubts about the 44:1 gearbox, but you sure whipped it into shape,…..my jaw hit the ground,…you’ve tamed the best,….you got my vote!…🤯

BTW, I knew you had gone back & forth with motor swaps on that engine, so which one did you finally settle on?….whatever you did, keep the recipe handy!…that’s a winner,….looks really good too!!..

Pat

Thanks. It's sure is nice. I went with a Pittman cause it's proven.