Legacy loco won't recognize smoke up/down from Legacy CAB 2

The link to the manual https://www.lionelsupport.com/...ents/71-1117-250.pdf

Page 18 of the manual, how to properly reset.

@Randy P. posted:

With the loco's smoke switch off, there is no smoke -- as expected.  With the loco's smoke switch on, I get a modest amount of smoke -- most likely the equivalent of low or medium (I hope, because it isn't much.)  Anyway, hitting the smoke up/down buttons on the Cab 2 has no effect -- most obviously, I'm not able to turn smoke off with the remote -- I can hear the fan continue to pulse and of course see smoke as the loco moves forward, no matter how many times I press "smoke down."  All other functions such as sounds and speed and dialogue seem to work fine.

Well reviewing the parts diagram, this has the analog 6 Ohm smoke unit, and really, the advice is change that smoke resistor to an 8 Ohm before the smoke regulator dies.  https://ogrforum.com/...01#83790477199619301

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You can certainly swap smoke units, it requires a bit of rewiring.  More than one person has taken the smart smoke with the troublesome regulator out and put in a standard smoke unit.  FWIW, if you ever run across a 6 ohm resistor, swap it for an 8 ohm resistor.  Lionel suggested that change years ago, the 6 ohm resistor was too hard on the regulators and was killing them regularly. Even the 8 ohm ones are hard on regulators, I have a batch of regulators on order right now, and two waiting in the corner for the replacements.

I've put Super-Chuffers in all sorts of locomotives, including those with and without various incarnations of smart smoke, and with and without regulators.

Then going back to the manual on page 31

Honestly, my impression is that some of these during that time era were not super smokers and definitely not compared to more recent engines. If you are basing you expectation on that, I think you are going to continue to be unhappy. Again, switching to an 8 Ohm resistor was a recommendation even from Lionel, and yet doing so is a tradeoff and may or may not produce even less heat.

I don't know for sure if the analog smoke fan driven unit shuts off with the command. What you need to know is that these units have the smoke heat controlled by the external regulator module, and the fan is driven off the analog smoke unit board and triggerd by the chuff switch. Also of note, this probably does not have idle smoke when not moving.

Hence another good candidate for @gunrunnerjohn  and his super chuffer to control the smoke fan. That would then give you idle smoke and some extra features (example cab light that turns off with speed).

the-super-chuffer-revisited

https://ogrforum.com/...er-chuffer-revisited

FWIW, I just test ran my http://www.lionel.com/products...wheeler-827-6-11150/

Now granted, that is not the same engine and I know for a fact different smoke unit physically, different and separate smoke fan control PCB, but it is Legacy from the same rough time period.

Bottom line, it does not turn off the smoke fan when turning off the smoke heat using Legacy or TMCC. Yep, even when off the still runs the fan puff in tune with the sound chuff even though smoke heater is turned off in command. It too does not have idle smoke (the fan doesn't kick on at a slow speed while the engine is stopped) a limitation of these analog smoke fan units at the time.

Again, what this engine and your engine have in common for sure is the same S03 code AC smoke regulator module, 6 Ohm that really should be changed to an 8 Ohm smoke resistor, and analog style smoke fan control even though mine is a separate PCB its logic components are very similar. The inherent core design of the smoke system is basically the same- and thus the same results. It's on my own to-do list of upgrading to a supechuffer.

It's never going to compete with more recent smoke units without major overhaul and upgrades.

Hi Vernon,

Thanks so much for all of the great info., and for pointing out those pages in the manual.  I did go through all of the steps to both reset the loco and adjust the smoke output in various ways, and nothing seemed to make any difference.  Thanks for the tip in replacing the 6-ohm resistor, and I will do that if I keep this unit, though it seems to me that would likely reduce what little smoke (steam) there already is and obviously not address my root problem.

It's interesting that your early-Legacy loco does not turn off the smoke fan even when the heater is off -- but in my case the heater never turns off because it's always producing (a wisp of) smoke, unless the physical switch on the loco is turned off.

I'm pretty good with electronics and I'm all on board (hah!) to swap out whatever I can to get a more productive and working smoke unit -- though I've just watched a few videos and read the manual and I'm still not clear what the Super Chuffer II might do for me.  I love the massive amount of smoke that is produced in the videos, but I could not determine if that unit "obeys" commands from the Cab 2 in terms of smoke off/low/med/high (especially if my current loco board does not, whether that's a fault or not.)  Also it sounds like I would need a custom chip from John as the microswitch that triggers the chuffs is N.O. on TMCC vs N.C. on Legacy, or vice-versa.  Anyway, what little documentation I can find seems to assume you're installing the unit in an ERR Cruise Commander, and precious little about installing in an early Legacy loco.  Also, all those different Lionel boards and generations is all new to me so I've got a bit of a learning curve -- unless I can find someone I can send this out to and just let them get everything working ;-)

I'll reach out to gunrunnerjohn and I'm sure he can clear up these questions.

Thanks again, Vernon -- much appreciated!

FWIW I am sure that GRJ can help you on the SuperChuffer adaptation and whether it can work in your case. Based on my own experience, many TMCC and early Legacy smoke units would not switch off completely (fan and heater element) when the shutdown command was entered, and they did not have smoke lofting out of the stack at idle. With later Legacy we have got used to these features but Lionel did not get to them without some false starts along the way. There's actually so much variation in Lionel smoke units over the years that it's hopelessly confusing for a non-techie like me.

I do know that some of the 6 Ohm units were prolific smokers but prone to AC Regulator failure, which I have had to repair more than once.

@Randy P. I actually created a special Super-Chuffer for Legacy, my first installation was described here: Improving the Lionel Legacy 10-Wheeler.  This version works with the early Legacy models that still use the modular board set with the R4LC and the DCDS motor driver.

Thanks @gunrunnerjohn.  I enjoy technical challenges, but this is all new ground for me and a deep rabbit hole ;-)  But I love this little loco and I'd be so happy to upgrade the smoke unit to something that really upped the volume.  Ditto with several other of my Legacy steamers.

Can you (or anyone) advise if a Super-Chuffer II is likely to fix the issue where my loco is not recognizing smoke commands from my Cab 2?  If the switch is turned on (underneath the loco) it always smokes; no way to control it.  Which board or component is most likely the culprit?

If this were your loco, is there a better upgrade path than simply replacing a bad board (if even available) with the same thing?  I.e. is there a newer set of boards available (keyword!) from Lionel that would be a better option?

Also do you have any idea if the Super-Chuffer II is likely to fit inside this loco (6-11117 4-4-2 Atlantic E6 made in 2008)?

Oh, also, I've only found examples of folks upgrading steam locos with the Super-Chuffer II.  I have a handful of early-Legacy diesel locos that I'd love to upgrade to better smoke.  Is that an option?

Thanks for your time!

FWIW, the top suspect for not controlling the smoke is the smoke regulator.  They frequently fail in exactly that way.  The bad news is, Lionel is shipping "pulls" when you order replacement parts, and the replacements don't seem to work any better than the original many times!

@Randy P. posted:

Also do you have any idea if the Super-Chuffer II is likely to fit inside this loco (6-11117 4-4-2 Atlantic E6 made in 2008)?

Oh, also, I've only found examples of folks upgrading steam locos with the Super-Chuffer II.  I have a handful of early-Legacy diesel locos that I'd love to upgrade to better smoke.  Is that an option?

I can't say if it would fit in the Atlantic, however since this is not the Lindbergh model with whistle steam, it probably could be fit in.  I know the early Atlantic with whistle steam has NO room at all inside!

It's important to note what the Super-Chuffer does and doesn't do.  Smoke volume is controlled by the existing electronics and smoke unit characteristics.  In order to enhance smoke output, frequently a rebuild of the smoke unit is the first step.  I open up the fan intake hole, and the stack hole as much as possible to promote maximum airflow.  For TMCC installations with the stock 27 ohm resistor, I also replace the resistor with a 20 ohm resistor, and also replace the smoke wick.  Make sure there is a clear path from the fan chamber over the smoke resistor on on to the stack.  Also, the smoke resistor should be firmly in contact with the smoke wick, but NOT totally embedded in the wick!  In order to generate maximum smoke, the air has to flow over the top of the bare resistor and take the vaporized smoke fluid to the stack.

For Legacy and TMCC with the smoke regulator, the stock 8 ohm resistor is retained as there is no practical gain to be realized by tinkering with it's value.  The other modifications mentioned above are still useful for improving the smoke volume.

The Super-Chuffer controls the smoke fan as well as adding some lighting features.  Here's the feature list for the Super-Chuffer.

• Smoke Unit fan motor control for synchronized chuffing with the RailSounds output.
• Dynamic braking of smoke unit motor and chuff duration control enhances the appearance of the smoke chuff output at all speeds.
• Smoke fan motor runs continuously at slow speed when locomotive is stopped.
• Rule 17 LED light control for headlight, dimming when locomotive is stopped.
• TMCC headlight voltage input to control headlight on/off state from remote.
• Automatic control to turn cab light on when stopped, off when moving.
• Smoke motor inactive if smoke is turned off.

Note that the Super-Chuffer was initially developed for TMCC upgrades and enhancing factory TMCC steamers.  It was later that I decided that even early Legacy could benefit from the features of the Super-Chuffer and I added that option.

@Randy P. posted:

Thanks @gunrunnerjohn.  I enjoy technical challenges, but this is all new ground for me and a deep rabbit hole ;-)  But I love this little loco and I'd be so happy to upgrade the smoke unit to something that really upped the volume.  Ditto with several other of my Legacy steamers.

Can you (or anyone) advise if a Super-Chuffer II is likely to fix the issue where my loco is not recognizing smoke commands from my Cab 2? If the switch is turned on (underneath the loco) it always smokes; no way to control it.  Which board or component is most likely the culprit

ANSWER: NO,the super chuffer ONLY controls the fan, the smoke resistor is controlled by the Lionel AC smoke regulator module.

If this were your loco, is there a better upgrade path than simply replacing a bad board (if even available) with the same thing?  I.e. is there a newer set of boards available (keyword!) from Lionel that would be a better option?

No, the regulator board is the regulator board. Nobody else makes one.

Also do you have any idea if the Super-Chuffer II is likely to fit inside this loco (6-11117 4-4-2 Atlantic E6 made in 2008)? Sure, probably a tight fit, but shoehorn it in there somewhere.

Oh, also, I've only found examples of folks upgrading steam locos with the Super-Chuffer II.  I have a handful of early-Legacy diesel locos that I'd love to upgrade to better smoke.  Is that an option?

No need for super chuffer on a diesel IMO. Remember super chuffer is just that- about steam chuffing. Since Diesels do not chuff you gain nothing.

Thanks for your time!

Again, here is the basic deal going on.

Your engine uses the Lionel smoke regulator that takes AC track power, and then also a serial data signal from the main controller receiver of the engine and uses that information to turn on and limit the voltage to the smoke resistor. That's it's whole job in life- convert track power to a suitable voltage and also listen to and follow the control signals. This is a $30 board from Lionel parts and most parts orders incur $10 shipping + tax. So a $40+ hit right there. I'm not convinced your board is bad and replacing it may result in no change. That's how it works. You keep saying it's not turning off but again, given this unit, they typically fail full on with huge smoke until it burns out or no smoke ever because it's burned out. This middle stuck on but not producing excessive smoke is more like how it works than a real problem. Direct link to the part https://www.lionelsupport.com/AC-REGULATOR-S03-CODE

Second part of this is, understanding the OTHER part- the fan control. Your engine uses the integrated analog smoke control PCB on the top of the smoke unit. This part is working and nothing is technically wrong with it. This part is no longer available at Lionel.

Effectively this is the same circuit that I have and also in gunrunnerjohn's ten wheeler that is still an analog control. By analog, we mean no microprocessor. What is does is then puff the fan for a timed sequence after every switch closure on the input. It doesn't run the fan at all unless there are periodic closures of the chuff switch.

The Super chuffer is a replacement board that also uses track power, and regulates that to DC required for the fan motor. It contains a microprocessor with code that then can determine when the smoke unit resistor is ON (one of the inputs) and combined with the chuff switch input then pulses and brakes the fan motor dynamically to create a very distinct puff of smoke. That is what you are paying for- not just the circuit- but that smart firmware code that determines when the smoke unit is actually on, determines when the train is stopped or moving based on timing of the pulses, and then that enables idle smoke where the fan spins at a lower speed to create a steady stream of smoke at idle, and then also distinct puffing timed with the chuff sound when moving. Cost of this part is $74.99 + shipping +tax.

Now if you do the work, and only buy the parts, that's roughly approaching $140 in parts alone. If you have to ship the engine, pay for labor +parts + shipping both ways, this easily becomes likely a $200-$250 upgrade just to fix your smoke unit system.

Again, bottom line, I'm not even convinced you have a problem. It's working mostly as intended or what can be expected.

Yes, adding the superchuffer is an upgrade, yes it would be shoehorned in there, yes, electrically it's compatible with your engine, yes, it gives you

#1 it turns off the fan if/when the smoke resistor is off.

#2 It provides idle smoke fan control to prevent overheating of the smoke unit when the engine is stopped while providing the useful feature of smoke flowing rather than a wisp at idle.

#3 Because it knows the state of the engine (moving VS idle) it can control a feature like a cab light that is on when idle and off when moving.

However, all that said, it cannot do jack squat for controlling the smoke resistor, or changing the Lionel regulator from listening to or following TMCC/Legacy smoke level settings because that is the function of the smoke regulator.

Thanks for the detailed explanation and link, @gunrunnerjohn and @Vernon Barry  So the Super-Chuffer II isn't actually going to boost my smoke volume, which is the one improvement I'd most like to see on this loco (though the fan running when the loco is standing is definitely a plus.)  Appreciate the clarification.  I'll re-build the smoke unit per John's suggestions and swap an 8-ohm resistor if it happens to have a 6-ohm resistor.

I think I'll try ordering a new regulator, at the risk that it might not be the problem, and/or the replacement might have the same problem.  I'm convinced there *is* a problem because, if nothing else, the CAB 2 needs to be able to tell the loco to turn smoke on and off, and it isn't able to shut off the smoke at all, ever (unless I throw the switch on the loco itself.)  When the loco is standing still for any length of time, I can't see any smoke but I can *smell* the unit cooking.

If you truly can't control the smoke volume and/or turn the smoke on/off, the primary component that does that is indeed the smoke regulator.  The smoke regulator is also a high failure rate component.

One possible issue that I've seen is the serial data is overloaded and the smoke regulator doesn't "get the word".  When I did my Legacy upgrade of my T1 Duplex, I had to add a serial data buffer to supply the smoke regulator with amplified serial data to get proper operation.