Legacy or Lionchief Plus 2.0 Diesel?

I prefer the LC+2 (parallels older TMCC), but if you desire all those new bells and whistles, extra buttons to push, Legacy is the way to go. Presently, I run my Legacy and LC+2 via a "universal remote but I do plan to upgrade. LC+2, Legacy and Proto systems are all fun to operate, happy decision making.

Thanks Das Boot. I’m leaning toward the Legacy but must admit the pricing on the LC+2s is definitely a big attraction.

I just want to try and avoid a ‘Man, I wish I had bought the Legacy’ moment.

The scale detailing is amazing on legacy engines. I only have one (which was used) and the step up in detail from traditional Lionel engines is breathtaking. I just did my first pre ordered my first engine and got the b&o sd70. The fact that you can run new legacy via your phone or tablet played a role in my purchase.

Be sure to factor in that you'd need to invest in a Legacy System as well.

Jon

Individuals have to decide whether (or not) that extra detailing is worth the (approximately) double price over LC +V2 .  BUT- an early 2000s Legacy is a bargain, and should also be considered. In some respects, I think those early ones were better- better crew talk, tailored to the road number, for example.  Many of those were made in Korea, which I think are better than the Chinese ones.

The catalog description "can motor w/ flywheel" does not mean identical QUALITY of motor.   The set loco's DC motor vs. the motors in LC+ ones I have are night and day.   

1. Run a set loco (from a set priced at $250) for HOURS a day or run a lot of cars = early motor failure.

2.  I  run LC+ and Legacy engines on a medium sized layout and plastic/metal cars.  I have had NO motor issues w/ LC+ locos.  I am sure the motors used, the running gear, etc. might also be still  better again once you go to Legacy.

But ultimately- one has to value his approach to the hobby.  If trains are a side interest, then maybe buying $1200 engines is not a good idea.  I tend to do everything "whole hog".  "Your results might differ."

I want to run longer trains such as 20 cars or more. That’s one reason I know I will need more power than my basic LC ET44C4 (which is a great piece), especially given the time I plan to be operating them. Currently my train is only 11 cars in length plus the locomotive.

Are the motors different between the LC+2 vs the Legacy units?

And - I have the LC app on my phone for my LC unit but what Legacy system pieces do I need to run a Legacy locomotive? Does anything come with a new Legacy unit? Anything different Bluetooth wise?

Some people are perfectly happy using a phone or Universal Remote to run legacy engines. I personally HAVE to have my Cab-2 best thing out there IMO. Keep in mind tho that Bluetooth in legacy has only been in for the past couple of years anything older you won’t be able to run with Bluetooth. If your not ready to dish out the cash for the full Legacy system I’d highly recommend the Cab-1L it’s very basic there are advantages to it over the original Cab-1 and it’s a little cheaper. Plus then you would also be open to the market of any older Legacy or TMCC locomotives. If you do like the Cab-1L or Cab-2 remember that the new LC+ 2.0 can be ran as TMCC

Go into Lionel's parts list, look up the motor part numbers, and  you do see differences between LC+2 and Legacies.  A LC PRR Flyer motor is $ 18.  Looking at the Polar Express Lion Chief Plus 2.0 - the unbranded motor is     $ 28.50.  The Canon motor in the Polar Express Legacy $ 54  I am guessing that the performance of the motors varies widely, and is a huge difference from what I have seen.  The other difference is SOUND.

I also have a Legacy PRR K4 Pacific (smaller engine) from about 2011, SKU 6-11264, #1361. Bought used.  It runs great, great sound, great detail.  I think it was about $1200 (new) , years ago.

Consider USED Legacy engines.  Most hobbyists rarely run their engines because they have many of them.  Some NEVER run them.  But those who do are normally fastidious about maintenance.  And the price is generally 50-75% of new.  Add to that (IMHO) the sounds of locos in the early 2000s were better in some respects.  The crew talk addresses the engines by road number for example.

Legacy for me. My favorite diesels SD40-2 and SD70 are all Legacy.

Given the choice I go for the premium spread, that means Legacy or MTH Premier locomotives.  However, I have plenty of the lower cost models as well.

Thanks guys. Excellent feedback. Any other thoughts?

So to clarify for my understanding, if I buy a newer Legacy unit I can control via my LC App and would not have to buy a Cab-1/2 system right now?
Or, is there a Legacy specific app?

Yes, the new Legacy is all BlueTooth equipped and you can control it using the LC Application.

Excellent. Thank you for the clarification.

Steve

I'm a bit confused. I have no Legacy system but run Lionchief and Lionchief+ (as well as MTH wit only the DCS Explorer.)

I have my eye on the LionChief 2.0 GG1. It has a bunch of bells and whistles. Can I access all features (Mars light, etc.) using just the Lion Chief App, or do I need a Legacy system to fully access all the 2.0 features?

Does a legacy locomotive work with the power supplied via the Lionchief power supply that came with my set or will I need to convert to a transformer power supply?

I thought I read somewhere that the LC power supply is 12 volts?

Legacy want AC, so you'll need a real transformer.

  I had my stuff packed away for years and it was mostly 70's-80's locos and cars.    A couple years ago my grandson became old enough to be interested so I set up the Southern Crescent and listened to it squeak and growl.   Couldn't find most of my track (must have got lost in the packing or move) so when I learned about Fastrack I started buying that and a couple LC locos.  Made a few errors but that is ok, it happens.   The most recent purchase were two LC 2.0 NS SD80MACs and they are nice, can be operated by transformer, AC or DC 18v bluetooth, or a Legacy control system.    My old KW and ZW transformers were a bit noisy and while they worked I wanted something foolproof for the kids.   I did use the LC power supply for a while but it being DC the lights on the remote turnouts only operated in one direction, plus trains with lighted passenger cars pushed it's capacity.    So I broke down and purchased a Powerhouse 180 Brick ($115.00)  which is AC (18vac) and has plenty of power for multiple trains, circuit protection, and remote switches also operate more reliably,..    Still haven't decided on a Legacy control system, but it would give me the ability to operate the LC 2.0 locos in lash-up mode.

@Raven87 posted:

Does a legacy locomotive work with the power supplied via the Lionchief power supply that came with my set or will I need to convert to a transformer power supply?

I thought I read somewhere that the LC power supply is 12 volts?

You'd need real 18v AC. You could get that using standard bricks like the MTH Z-500 50W, Z-1000 100w, or Lionel PowerHouse 180w.

Thanks. So when I connect the transformer is there anything I need to change on my LC locomotive to run it on the AC power?

Nope, it'll run just as well on AC as DC.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Nope, it'll run just as well on AC as DC.

Great, thank you.
So I need to buy a powerhouse 180 brick, the TMCC lock on and a wired fastrack terminal section to change over to full AC power, right? Then I can use the LC app to control both my LC ET44C4 and any new Legacy locomotive units correct? Am I missing anything?
I really appreciate you guys answering my noob questions!

Steve

You don't need the TMCC Lockon, that's "fluff" IMO.  Just a proper cable to mate the PH180 to the track connection.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You don't need the TMCC Lockon, that's "fluff" IMO.  Just a proper cable to mate the PH180 to the track connection.

Even better! Thank you.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

You don't need the TMCC Lockon, that's "fluff" IMO.  Just a proper cable to mate the PH180 to the track connection.

Is there a premade cable available with a female end that the PH 180 will interface with to the track or should I cut the plug off the PH 180 and fit connectors directly to the Fastrack via the clips underneath? I even wondered about the Fastrack 10” Terminal piece with wires already attached.

I’m just looking for a good and safe way to securely connect the PH 180 without buying the $50 TMCC Lockon as GRJ suggests. I don’t want to damage anything especially my new Legacy loco being delivered next week.

Steve

@Raven87

Check this topic.

@GregM posted:

@Raven87

Check this topic.

Thank you Greg.
So - if I buy the 6-12893 cable adaptor, the female molex end obviously plugs to the male molex of from the PH. Then I would attach connectors to the wires on that cable to attach to the clips on the underside of a section of my Fastrack right?

Or, is there anything premade that has  molex female and the other male end that could attach directly to the Fastrack terminal that uses the connection on the DC unit?

Sorry for my lack of clarity but I just want to make sure I do this right.

@zhubl posted:

If your not ready to dish out the cash for the full Legacy system I’d highly recommend the Cab-1L it’s very basic there are advantages to it over the original Cab-1 and it’s a little cheaper.

This. I cut my command controlled teeth on the CAB-1L and I really liked it. It was super simple but still worked well. I did eventually upgrade to full Legacy but this was a great way to get into it until I had more money for a full Legacy system.

Is the Cab1-L to full Legacy what the DCS Explorer is to fill DCS? In other words, is it just very basic things, or can I for example, lash LC 2.0 engines with the Cab1?

@Raven87 posted:

Thank you Greg.
So - if I buy the 6-12893 cable adaptor, the female molex end obviously plugs to the male molex of from the PH. Then I would attach connectors to the wires on that cable to attach to the clips on the underside of a section of my Fastrack right?

Or, is there anything premade that has  molex female and the other male end that could attach directly to the Fastrack terminal that uses the connection on the DC unit?

Sorry for my lack of clarity but I just want to make sure I do this right.

It took a little while, but I found a post by @ChooChoo1972 that included a link to the correct size barrel jack available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d...p_mb_yo_pop_mb_pd_t2 

The wires from the barrel jack along with the wires from the 6-12893 cable would be connected together using Wago nuts or something similar.  This method would rely on the PH180 for overload protection in the event of derailments.

@GregM posted:

It took a little while, but I found a post by @ChooChoo1972 that included a link to the correct size barrel jack available on Amazon:

https://www.amazon.com/gp/aw/d...p_mb_yo_pop_mb_pd_t2

The wires from the barrel jack along with the wires from the 6-12893 cable would be connected together using Wago nuts or something similar.  This method would rely on the PH180 for overload protection in the event of derailments.

Thank you Greg. Perfect!

@pdxtrains posted:

Is the Cab1-L to full Legacy what the DCS Explorer is to fill DCS? In other words, is it just very basic things, or can I for example, lash LC 2.0 engines with the Cab1?

Loosely yes. You get all basic command functions including MU’s. On legacy locomotives you’ll also get quilling whistle/horn on the Cab-1L. Of course it’s activation isn’t as smooth as the Cab-2 but it’s easily my favorite Legacy feature so anything that lets me access it gets a thumbs up from me 😉

So I did ultimately buy a gently ‘used’ UP Dash 9 Legacy after I converted my layout to AC power via a Powerhouse 180, etc.

Wow, it is a massive night and day difference between my LC unit - which I really enjoy - and this Legacy monster. As someone else posted, the Legacy is on a completely different level.

The actual locomotive moment/action and especially the sounds of the Legacy are really something to see/hear. I’m definitely 100% hooked on the Legacy features.

One question - Having not experienced an LC+2, is that level even close to the Legacy at all? Just curious...

A major Thank You(!) to everyone who has replied and encouraged me in my efforts to get back into this fascinating hobby!

I run mine conventionally and love being able to run at slow speeds, the sounds and most of all, the details. I still like my conventional locos, but my legacy gp35 is currently my favorite.  When I build my permanent layout, I will likely run my pre ordered sd70ace with the app, as I don’t have legacy. Enjoy your new engine!!!

To answer your question, the details of the lionchief 2.0 are usually non existent (except for the sd80mac) The features look awesome as they seem to have good speed control, and smoke. I can’t attest for the sounds, as I haven’t heard one in person. I am planning on staying away from lionchief anything unless the detailing gets better or I find great deals. Since I’m not fully married to any control system, I might go with mth or it’s successor when the dust settles.

Great buys in "early Legacy" from around 2000- 2010.  Many "used" ones are available, and quite a few NOS are also.  They run great, have many features, and (in some cases, like the GP9s) have features in sound that exceed their newer counterparts.

You will be happier with a Legacy over any Lionchief,  while there are used legacy engines, the prices seem quite high to me( I must not be looking in the right place for the great buys) , plus without the warranty, I would just buy new, you'll have peace of mind if there is an issue right out of the box (with the warranty). I use the MTH Z4000, its easy to switch from conventional to legacy control, I run them both ways.

@Mike Wyatt posted:

Great buys in "early Legacy" from around 2000- 2010.  Many "used" ones are available, and quite a few NOS are also.  They run great, have many features, and (in some cases, like the GP9s) have features in sound that exceed their newer counterparts.

Since I’m still learning about the Legacy environment and am a big fan of Bluetooth control, what more do I need to be able to integrate non-Bluetooth Legacy units into my layout?
I must admit I’m not clear on what additional hardware (and cost) would be needed to expand that way?

@Csxcellent posted:

I run mine conventionally and love being able to run at slow speeds, the sounds and most of all, the details. I still like my conventional locos, but my legacy gp35 is currently my favorite.  When I build my permanent layout, I will likely run my pre ordered sd70ace with the app, as I don’t have legacy. Enjoy your new engine!!!

Definitely love the slow speeds as well as the momentum effects. And the locomotive sounds are very realistic.

Because of that, I’m looking to buy a second Legacy modern era diesel right now.