What is the Chuff rate for both LionChief and LionChief Plus locomotives? Also, is their a mechanical or electronic way to alter and increase the chuff rate of either of those type engines?
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As far as I am aware LC/LC+ both are set to 2 chuffs per revolution. I'm unsure if this could be hacked, but tend to think it is not possible. I think the chuff rate is set in the electronics, rather than by a sensor like on older engines. In another discussion on this subject, it was discussed that the 2 chuff was probably chosen because it sounds better than 4 chuffs to the casual listener, even though not prototypical.
JGL
The chuff is generated in the uP, so there's no way anyone but Lionel is going to change it.
I looked at the LC (not plus), and it appears they may use a chopper to generate the chuff. If so, it's open season. 
So are you saying the chuff rate could be changed with a "chopper" this is what is in our polar express lionchief. I had a problem with it and was able to fix it and make it chuff again.
I haven't tried it, but I see they have a chopper that I presume is to generate the chuff. I never thought of looking closer when I had one on the bench. Next time I get one to repair, I'll look a bit closer.
gunrunnerjohn posted:I haven't tried it, but I see they have a chopper that I presume is to generate the chuff. I never thought of looking closer when I had one on the bench. Next time I get one to repair, I'll look a bit closer.
I will be interested in knowing what you find. I passed on the LC+ scale PRR A5 because I wasn't sure if it could be converted to four chuffs/rev.
There is a somewhat parallel thread going on here: (S-Gauge FlyerChief engines)
https://ogrforum.com/t...hief-chuff-questions
In that thread it's been discussed that the electronics in use in LionChief vary a great deal from those used in LionChief Plus.
In regular LionChief, it looks like doubling the pulses from the simple tach would give the desired results of doubling the number of chuffs, however this needs to be tested.
On Plus/Flyer engines, however things are a bit more complex, as the tach also controls the speed of the engine, and doubling the tach pulses will effectively cut the engine speed in half.
JGL
JohnGaltLine posted:...as the tach also controls the speed of the engine, and doubling the tach pulses will effectively cut the engine speed in half.
For me, since the A5 is a switcher, this is not an issue.
As I stated in the other thread John, the LC O-gauge locomotives don't have a tach at all, at least all that I've had apart have not had a tach. The FlyerChief stuff is different as I discovered in the same thread.
No hope for the LC+ Ron as the tach also controls the engine speed. You "could", if you felt adventurous, put in a pulse doubler to double the chuffs and half the engine top speed. I haven't looked to see if this is possible without great difficulty.
Bringing this thread back from the dead, as I decided to see if one could give a LC polar express the 4 chuffs/rev option.
Ran into something that seemed odd, which is that the engine I took apart appears to do just 1 chuff per revolution of the drivers in factory condition, and I am not sure if this is normal. I seem to remember my other LC Polar express(10th anniversary edition) having 2 chuffs per revolution. Am I mistaken, is 1 chuff/rev normal, or do other polar express locomotives do 2 chuffs?
In any case, changing the chuff rate of a LionChief Polar Express is quite possible. One could probably do the same thing with discrete components, but I chose to use a $2 Arduino ProMini, and nothing else, powering the micro-controller off the power for the chuff switch's IRLED.
Unfortunately, to me anyway, the idea that less chuffs actually sound better holds true. and 4 chuffs just doesn't sound very good with the basic sounds of the Railsounds RC in LionChief at anything fasted than a crawl...Which is impossible to maintain without some sort of cruise control.
Anyway, if anyone can confirm with the polar express if it has one or two chuffs per revolution of the drivers I would appreciate it, and perhaps what the chuff rate is on any other not 'plus' LionChief engines?
JGL
Exactly what are you doing to change the chuff rate? I'd like to do it for the LC+. 
GRJ, unfortunately it only works on regular LionChief steamers. The Plus engines, as far as I can tell so far, get their wheel position information from the motor's encoder. The the not-plus engines, however, have the chuff triggered by a 'chopper' IR sensor which the smoke puffer lever passes through, driven from the cam on the wheels.
At this point I have the arduino reading the pulses from this sensor and placing 3 more, more or less, equally spaced pulses between them. It lags behind if the speed changes between 'real' chuffs, but it gets the job done. I'm sure the same could be done for a fraction of the cost of an Arduino with a PIC, but Arduino is what I have, and am familiar with. This is a little side project I decided to check out while ripping apart a LC Polar Express for something else a bit more complex.
JGL
I tried an experiment to do that with the Super-Chuffer and standard chuff switches. When the speed varied at all, you were always a bit behind and the chuff spacing was somewhat uneven and sounded odd. I abandoned that effort and went the way I did with the Chuff-Generator.
I thought the LC+ did it internally, hence the question.
Yep, with our new found cheap PCB fabrication house, the PIC could do that job for probably around $2 total as well. It would also be a very small package. Hard to beat a $2 Arduino for the price part.
For what it's worth, the LC Polar Express, as well as many other LC engines do have a small flywheel on the motor where a tach strip could be used. At least I think one could, the flywheel's flat edge surface looks to be maybe 3/16 inch wide. From looking at the parts diagrams on a selection of LC engines, it appears the motors with flywheels are only in the larger LC steam engines. All the diesels do not appear to have them, and anything with the smaller motors, for example the Hogwarts engine, do not have them either.
Because of this, I don't think it's a very good option to use a flywheel encoder/tach strip for a LionChief engine upgrade, even though it would make life easier to do so.
As I move along with my experiments I will see how it goes to use Back EMF for chuff generation, but I'm a little skeptical about it right now.
Anyway, still looking for others with a LionChief Polar Express to chime in if their engines have 1 or 2 chuffs per driver revolution.
JGL
JohnGaltLine posted:For what it's worth, the LC Polar Express, as well as many other LC engines do have a small flywheel on the motor where a tach strip could be used. At least I think one could, the flywheel's flat edge surface looks to be maybe 3/16 inch wide. From looking at the parts diagrams on a selection of LC engines, it appears the motors with flywheels are only in the larger LC steam engines. All the diesels do not appear to have them, and anything with the smaller motors,for example the Hogwarts engine, do not have them either.
Odd, my Hogwart's Express locomotives (two of them) both have flywheels. The parts page correctly lists what I have.
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Must have been thinking of some other engine I looked at the parts on, and not the Hogwarts. Maybe some of the scout-type engines. In any case it doesn't really matter in the end. After playing about and tweaking settings as much as possible, 4 chuffs just doesn't work out with the polar express, anyway. Even at low speeds the chuff sounds like a machine gun firing, and at higher speeds the electronics of the 'RailSounds RC' can't keep up with the speed and start missing chuffs regularly.
I'll mark this up as a failed experiment for now, though there were things to learn, such as where to tap into the LC boards for a nice +5Vcc supply without modifying the engine.
JGL
JohnGaltLine posted:I'll mark this up as a failed experiment for now, though there were things to learn, such as where to tap into the LC boards for a nice +5Vcc supply without modifying the engine.
Are you sharing that secret or keeping it to yourself?
gunrunnerjohn posted:Are you sharing that secret or keeping it to yourself?
Oh. You can tap +5 and ground off the outside pins to the 'chopper' IR sensor. The solid black is ground, Black/white is Vcc, and the blue is pulse from the IR sensor. Not sure how much current it will source, but it is easily enough to power an Arduino, and I suspect it is whatever the full output of the switcher chip is. At this point I've been unable to find a data sheet on the switcher regulator they used. You can also tap into the unregulated DC supply on the plug to the smoke unit, if you need a higher voltage, or current. I'm sure the little plugs could be found without much trouble to make a cable that taps in without any irreversible changes to the engine.
JGL
LionChief Plus - is two chuffs per revolution. I am a toy train layout, and I am having too much fun, to count the chuffs.
Just watch this video and you will feel better, about two chuffs
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72_RH1wwp2w
Hope this video helps with having Lionel Fun. Remember if you are ever in Southeastern Michigan, hit me up with an e-mail to see my train room and we can count the chuffs.
Gary
