Lionel 18" Passenger set cancellations

That is interesting. Didn't Lionel make scale sets in B & O and FEC earlier. The KCS set was a 15 inch set.

The Lionel passenger car drama continues.

Art

Honestly, we shouldn't be all that surprised here.

It was highly ambitious for Lionel to catalog so many different passenger sets in the past couple of catalogs amidst their inability to delivery aluminum passenger sets regularly this decade.

Aside from the CZ debacle which is presently unfolding, the last set I can recall them delivering was the Milwaukee Road 6-car set (which had its share of sloppy lighting/wiring issues).

Clearly, Lionel is having trouble finding a quality overseas manufacturer for their line-up of 18" aluminum passenger cars.

Let's see what happens with N&W Pocahontas set of painted aluminum cars due in December.  That may determine whether I'll keep my pre-order for the Texas Special set (which is currently first up in 2015 for a March 2015 delivery).  That will also determine whether I keep my order for the matching E8 A-A diesels (due one month earlier). 

David

I wish Lionel had canceled the CZ cars, it would have saved me the cost of shipping them back.

WOW, you read my mind.

We are only at Chapter 1 in this book. There are many pages yet to be read. Let's see how this all plays out. The recently issued CZ clearly is not what many who ordered these cars expected. These cars in my opinion have created a lot of uncertainty about what the future holds for Lionel 18" passenger cars.

I am not surprised about these cancellations.

Whaaat?!

So will I be refunded the 850 bucks I shelled out for KCS E-units because of the promise of KCS Southern Belle cars? Unbelievable!

Guess I'll have to start looking for some MTH cars - shouldn't be a problem.

But seriously, what a bummer!

Wow, sounds like there needs to be more Passenger Sets Made in the USA. I Think Lionel makes a Great 18 inch 7 car passenger set. I love to hear the station sound announcements in the Dining Car. All Aboard!!! All Aboard, The El CAPITAN is now Boarding!!! Happy Railroading.

This is getting scary....

I surely hope the Southern Passengers Cars will be spared!

Only Lionel knows what the real story is behind their inability to delivery quality 18" aluminum passenger cars now.

On the surface to us common folk, this ain't rocket science 'cause Lionel presumably still has the tooling from sets produced back in the 2000's decade.  I have many of those sets complete with all seven cars -- including the StationSounds diners.  Now if Lionel has somehow lost access to that tooling, then all bets are off.

I don't want to waste time speculating, 'cause any variety of scenarios could be playing out overseas relative to Lionel's aluminum passenger cars.  But since Lionel has yet to step forward to explain what's happening, all we can do is watch individual sets as they are delivered and go from there.  Certainly not a great way to move into the BTO world -- which many of the newer sets slated for a 2015 delivery are.

But as I said over in the CZ thread a few days ago, I have absolutely no problem cancelling my pre-order of the MKT Texas Special if the cars aren't in the same league as the many sets I purchased back in the 2004-2008 time-frame.  The problem that someone else already aluded to is... these passenger cars are often offered ala carte with matching motive power.  And if the cars are delayed past delivery of the motive power, folks are left holding $700+ locomotive configurations without acceptable matching passenger cars.

I'm watching this space closely to see how the MKT stuff works out.  The E8's are currently due in Feb 2015, while the three MKT 2-packs are due in March 2015.  I wish those ETA's were reversed!    But realistically, I expect those passenger cars will slip well into 2H2015.  I was really impressed with Lionel's first run of E8's, which is why I ordered the MKT E8's to build a Texas Special.  But I also already own both powered SD70ACe's in the Texas Special livery... so I can do without the E8's if I sense that the MKT passenger cars will follow in the footsteps of the poorly done CZ cars. 

Ugghhh... this stuff is supposed to be fun!!!  But the importers are not making it so. 

Come on, Lionel.  Send a "take charge" kind of guy overseas and get a grip on this situation... Then communicate with consumers, so we can make appropriate buying decisions.  Please?  Thank you. 

David

Perhaps Lionel can parlay the mountain of unloved CZ cars into these canceled liveries. Should be a piece of cake if the CZ observation car are sans-dome...nightmare!

Interesting information David, at first i was wondering if China's current state of their economy was affecting Lionel, as I monitor China closely as a commodity investor.

But...MTH does not seem to have this same issue, albeit MTH has had some recent quality issues.

Moreover, what you said about the NYS Texas Special set...I own the PRR F3 AA set, and gave up on ever seeing the passenger cars, but also cancelled my Texas Special "set" pre-order of this same product for the same reason.

Frankly it just causes me too much grief...I would rather buy a bunch of Williams Passenger cars to fill the void, be happy and save money.

Word is all available aluminum is being sent to the Ford F-150 factory in Dearborne.

And yes, I'm waiting on my Neil Young Pennsy set.

On the surface to us common folk, this ain't rocket science 'cause Lionel presumably still has the tooling from sets produced back in the 2000's decade.  I have many of those sets complete with all seven cars -- including the StationSounds diners.  Now if Lionel has somehow lost access to that tooling, then all bets are off

Also the 6 car Canadian Pacific set was a nice set. So what happened? Is this the end of the road? Is this how my 44 year love affair with aluminum passenger cars ends? Bought my first set of 2530 aluminum passenger cars as a freshman in college 44 years ago from Hobby Models in Evanston, Illinois. Please say it aint so. Ah, the memories. Nothing prettier than a shinny new set of cars. I will just have to be thankful for my ESE, Congo and EP sets. The CZ was going to be the last one anyway.

I haven't purchased at 18" cars in years, but I do care about Lionel and any issues with the production of their passenger cars.  Back when I was buying their cars, I really liked what they had done with their interiors.  I also enjoyed the "Station Sounds" Diner.

Can anyone refer me to a thread dealing with the problems with the Lionel CZ set?

>>Come on, Lionel.  Send a "take charge" kind of guy overseas and get a grip on this situation... Then communicate with consumers, so we can make appropriate buying decisions.  Please?  Thank you.  <<

My guess...not enough preorders to meet minmal production quotes or a sub contractor not able to deliver the goods at a pre specified price.

Joe 

No one seems to want to bring up the elephant in the room, price. Only a few years ago you could get a scale GGD car for around 100 bucks. Now Lionel cars list at 160 bucks. I realize they are nicely done if not necessarily prototypical but for folks who are casual buyers, those that like the colors say rather than follow a particular road those numbers are discouraging. I was going to get a set of Texas Special cars to go with my Williams F units. I could care less that none of the cars likely match the prototype but with a price tag well into 4 figures I will wait for something on the secondary market.

Pete

Norton, are you saying that the new Lionel 18" Texas Special  cars won't match the prototype?

Please elaborate.

Thank you

Match the prototype? Heck, the Atlas CZ cars do not even match each other!

Daylight, I don't know if they match the prototype or not since I know little of the actual cars. Lionel nor MTH rarely make models based on an actual car even if you ignore length. Most Lionel streamliners are Pullman cars and most MTH cars are ACF designs. 

I mostly follow New York Central and try to find engines and rolling stock that closely match prototypical cars. 

For other roads I am far less critical. Someone who follows MKT could better answer your question.

As for the issue with CZ cars I am a bit miffed. I would not have expected Lionel to make new dies for these cars. It would be nice but it would also be a break from past experience. 

Pete

Guys, you're missing the point.  We're not talking about price here.  That's not the problem.  The CZ was over 2 years late... And look what got delivered.  

We can't get sidetracked by Lionel's new MSRP's.    True, a 6-car set lists now at a whopping $960, but that's not the street price.  I pre-ordered a set of MKT's (as three 2-pks) from Charlie Ro for $660 -- pretty much what they cost when Lionel last offered a 4-pack plus 2-pack add-on.  The StationSounds diners have been sadly missing for several years now.  I may resort to making my own for the 18" CP set I own, but that's a whole other topic.  The one feature that IS nice about the newest cars is they're catalog'd as having interior LED lighting.

I don't have a problem with the fact that Lionel cancelled a few sets, as outlined in the original post.  That was bound to happen, 'cause quite frankly... Lionel catalog'd far too many 18" sets after not delivering any for awhile.  The concept of "Let's walk before we run" comes to mind.     And if dealer orders weren't sufficient to make some production runs feasible, so be it.  That's life.

What we ARE focusing on however is the fact that two non-BTO aluminum passenger sets, the CZ and N&W Pocahontas, were over two years late coming to market.  And from the looks of the CZ, it fell way short of Lionel's cars produced in the last decade.  We'll be watching closely how the Pocahontas set gets delivered -- due out next month.  And absent any official word from Lionel, we'll watch what gets delivered going forward -- one set at a time.  But now we live in a BTO era for this stuff, so the game gets a bit tricky.  And we'd like to be more confident that what we order is what will be delivered.

Maybe Lionel execs need to hop on a plane more often and closely monitor their overseas suppliers the way Scott Mann does with his products.  He seems to be producing a quality product amidst the challenges of overseas issues these days, AND he keeps his clients informed.    That's what I'm talking about. 

Lionel can't even give us an authoritative answer as to whether the CZ observation has a dome or not.  And the cars are supposedly shipping to dealers next week!!!  That's pretty bad.  

David

 And from the looks of the CZ, it fell way short of Lionel's cars produced in the last decade.

David - What was wrong with the CZ cars?

Maybe Lionel execs need to hop on a plane more often and closely monitor their overseas suppliers the way Scott Mann does with his products.  He seems to be producing a quality product amidst the challenges of overseas issues these days, AND he keeps his clients informed.

Scott's success is amazing in light of the problems other manufacturers are having.

What does Mike Reagan have to say about all this?

See the California Zephyr 2 Pack thread. 

Rusty

Don't forget to grab a bag of popcorn first!  

David

I too am amazed that Lionel can't even confirm whether the observation has a dome or not.  The man I talked to at TrainFest was pretty sure it had a dome and the catalog picture was wrong.  The fact that he wasn't sure should worry us all.  I asked if he knew about the forum thread on the subject and he asked if I meant the paint job.  I guess we will just have to wait and see what they ship?  It's like the health care bill that we will have to pass it before we know what's in it.

Which is worse, don't know or don't care?

Art

This is sad news.  I know several fellas who were anxious to get these sets and now that they are cancelled some of those will be looking to MTH & GGD for passenger car sets for their lonely engines. 

The prices / demand for the older Lionel aluminum cars will undoubtedly increase now.  Recently the Lionel Sound Diner prices have gone through the roof because they are not currently being produced.  I see the same thing happening for the previous 18" aluminum sets now. 

Management at Lionel needs to look beyond the end of their noses and find a solution to this and other problems with production.  Either deliver the product in a timely fashion and have the capability of making it or stop cataloging things until you are absolutely sure it can be manufactured and delivered. 

It might be easier to set up a production line to make actual Stainless Steel body & frame passenger cars, commuter coaches, freight cars, and cabooses here in the USA then deal with China anymore. The reports on all the radio business shows is that China producers are not willing to deal with demand from other countries like in the past few decades.

Andrew

Not for me any longer.  I got tired of waiting for the ones I wanted: orig. scheduled for Sept-Oct of this year, now shown for '15.  

I ordered a full seven car set of MTH yesterday.  They'll be shipped today. 

While I have more than what I need and my purchases have dropped to a negligible level, I have a lot of empathy for folks now in the buyers market. Can you imagine a non hobby company getting away with this mess? From an outside perspective this is simply unacceptable especially after reading the CZ thread..two years late? Not as pictured? Any other outfit would have gone bust. If it weren't for hard core O scalers and Lionel loyalists...Man, I am glad I dont look at the catalogs anymore to put it bluntly. Its a confusing mess. Good grief.

Lee & Chugman,

I seriously thought about ordering some new Lionel passenger cars from the last catalog.  That's saying a lot, I don't buy 'new' trains. 

My concern was waiting forever on them to arrive as I knew the story on the N&W sets.  Now the drama with the CZ sets.  Made me wonder when they would arrive and what I may get in the box.  Probably would've been fine-not willing to gamble though considering the cost.

Instead, I found what I wanted on the secondary market (thankfully Lionel made my desired road name in the 2000s), half the price, NIB and available now!  I lucked out!

Even better, I found some K-Line 21" cars  

And realized how nice, caring, and honest a well known forum member is for his help.  A great ending for my story@!

Like you John, I'm waiting for the Neil Young Texas Special set.  I can't cancel my pre-order because they shipped my dummy and powered B units to me 6 months ago.  Then I hear, on a previous thread, that the stand alone F3 AA units don't match.  One A unit has a dull finish and the other a glossy finish.  The author of the thread email Mike Reagan but I have not heard if Mike has found the problem or if the paint problem goes into those AA sets awaiting the passenger cars.

It would be nice to get more and detailed answers from Lionel to our concerns and questions that we are receiving now.  I hate to see all the burden of our concerns fall on Mike Reagan's shoulders, but he seems to be our contact man here.

Steve, Lady and Tex

Rusty - Thank you

I cannot imagine in my wildest dreams the retailers are happy with this mess. They have more clout.( Maybe) They must be as frustrated if not more than the customers. From my acquaintances, a lot of folks are gravitating to the secondary market.

Ah no... this a blunder of epic proportions for us O gauge operators...

Its obvious that the current Lionel CZ cars have some serious short falls. I am sure that Lionel knew this upon the reactions of the consumers with the fall out of cancellations.

The good news is, I hope the shortfalls are fixed on future cars and and the re-issued cars appear better in the volume 2 2014 catalog.

I really wanted a set of the new Wabash cars.

The bad news is we have to wait for a matching set of cars for another 4 years... argh, and the prices of existing sets will go higher and higher.

Bottom line, it will hurt the industry when fewer people cannot afford to enter the hobby.

He is the same guy that told me at York in 2013 that the observation WOULD NOT have the dome. He gave some excuse that Lionel has never done it before but I believe they did on a 15" aluminum car. 

It it is amazing that they would not know. 

I think that you have to have to deal with these concerns is unacceptable. I guess I am too "old school." You should be able to trust someone's word or a company's overall performance as a purchaser or both. Speaking as a former customer this is hard earned money, not chump change.

To me, that's where the "sting" of being given unrealistic expectations, misleading representions and / or inferior product comes from. 

Correct.  Lionel produced a very nice Burlington Zephyr 15" set with a domed observation. I think that may also have been the first Lionel aluminum passenger set with detailed interiors.  I sold mine here on the forum when I went to all 18" cars (except for my Atlas-O CZ cars which are of course 21-inchers).

David