Lionel 18" Passenger set cancellations

The economy remains in a tail spin so it can be assumed that the importers only want to build to order or base their new product runs on pre-orders. Trouble is that many hobbyists don't pre-order. Move manufacturing back to the USA and solve the problem once and for all. That's what would get me buying again.

I totally agree with you Dennis.  No matter who says "it will never happen" it is the only real solution to the problems Lionel is experiencing.  I for one would not hesitate to pay more for quality products made here in the USA, I do it now for many items I purchase but the problem are those O gauger's who either are too cheap or can't afford to budget more for their hobby. 

 

Steve, Lady and Tex

 

Don't worry... this is just a pre-production launch... once tooling has been duplicated, it will probably be made in Mexico.

If the product specs are wrong and still approved, it doesn't matter where something is made.

 

Ask GM about ignition switches...

 

Broadway Limited had their HO CZ made in China and everything looks right, Rapido Trains had their superb HO "Canadian" made in China, arguably the best scale representative of a name train in any scale.

 

3rd Rail seems to be getting things right, also.

 

No, the responsibility is with the importer to demand things get done right.

 

Rusty

That's the problem though, its not the Cheap consumers that are causing the problem. If its made in China or the USA the price is the same to the consumers here!

Its the margin of profit and low labor rates for the companies that are making these product go to China. Low overhead etc.

 

Problem is Manufactures forget the proper disciplines for making a good company and a superior product:

The right product, at the right price, at the right time, coupled with the 3 p's:

People, product, and process.

 

What is the amount of money that companies have lost due to launching an inferior product and one that is not on time?

 

The loss is exponential.

 

 

 

 

 

Yup, back to the USA, and all problems solved. Like with the 2012 Made in USA Christmas cars.     

Its operations management at fault regardless of location. We do need to bring manufacturing home but it doesnt magically resolve poor operations management in of itself. If they made stuff here with the same bunch overseeing it, it would be just as screwed up.

Perhaps sending one dull and one gloss engine in an AA set might be beneficial.  That way, at least one of the engines has a chance of matching the cars!  Seriously, I'm sure at least one of the suits at Lionel has to sign-off on the first set off the production line to accept accuracy/quality control?

 

Stack

Customers keep lowering their standards too....what is considered acceptable today would not have been even back in the 1980s....especially the 50s and 60s.

I looked at the used market but just decided to go with the new MTH.  they surely look good in the catalog and on line.  

If I may, what happened to the Lionel CZ cars? Or point me to the correct thread, now I'm interested.

 

It seems to me, to put my 2 cents in, that Lionel has really slacked when it comes to scale, non operating rolling stock. Why do we even bother anymore? If we just want to run trains, then none of this should matter to us as toys are not to be to scale and that is perfectly fine. If we want realism and scale Atlas, MTH and GGD are the way to go, even with Atlas' slow production I always find a ton of well priced items at shows and online. Same with MTH. I haven't purchased anything GGD yet but I am contemplating it. If I want a fully functional command control crane, im going with lionel. If I want something that looks real and doesn't have a painted on FRED, im going with Atlas or MTH.

 

Just my 2 cents,

I would like to know the story behind the CZ passenger cars though.

Paulie, the link is on the first page of the thread... 

The cars are a disaster....

 

 

The important thing here is that Lionel is a broker importer who is motivated by the bottom line,they hope that we will buy what they produce correct or not,when we stop drinking the koolaid they will wake up.

Mikey

Here is my big issue....

After 3 bad MTH LIRR MUs in a row, I have lost faith in MTH quality.

I have been shifting my purchases to Lionel, mostly PWC and a couple Legacy F3's.

Problem is I have no Lionel passenger cars for them.

All of my passenger cars are either RMT, Williams, MTH.

I do not mind buying from these other companies, as I usually save money by doing so.

But, with my Legacy engines, I want to stick with Lionel.

Seems doing that is being made very difficult by Lionel with these cancellations:

 

1)My Lionel NYS Legacy PRR F3 AA set is still waiting for those passenger cars.

 

2)Cancelled my pre-order of the this same version for the Lionel Texas Special because I dont need another NYS AA set without NYS passenger cars.

 

3) Not even considering the sets for (2) for obvious reasons, and with reports of 2 different color Texas Special AA sets from a forum poster, I can forget about that AA set as well for reason (2) and this issue too.

 

4) Then there are my other Legacy F3's stuck without passenger cars from Lionels recent catalogs.

  

I guess Lionel just don't want our business.

Lionel's loss is MTH's gain I guess....

One thing I noticed ( which may or may not be true ) the rising costs of buying model trains has created a sort of situation where "if I am paying a significant amount of money for AB or C, I should get the realism and quality that goes along with the price tag" Otherwise, there's other options that for realism, are always a compromise. Not quite a toy and not quite realistic. I remember when Lionel got K-Line and then there was K-Line by Lionel, and they came out with an extension of their interurban sets with a CNSM set, which looked identical to a different road's passenger cars. Bob at the other venue noted that even the color schemes between the two cars did not match and the mismatch looked like a CAE car. So...whats odd is the fact that with a specific set bought by someone who knows the prototype...therefore wants a model...why in heaven's name would you go in the opposite direction? Especially when the customer spends a significant amount of money. Heres the bottom line...these are meant for adults, not kids. Yet they treat us like 12 year olds when it comes to at least being somewhere in the ball park of copying the real thing. Its just weird.

They somehow got their wires crossed. They dont have a realistic concept of their own market as it is today , not as it was in 1954, etc.

How many more years do we have to listen to folks whine about the current economy?  Just like the folks in the 30s could not go back to the 20s, we have to move on.

Without straying too far off topic, its been reported that Lionel has sold more of the fantasy schemed Daylight SP Cab Forwards than the ones with the prototypical paint jobs.

It would appear the kids out number the adults regardless what the calendar says.

 

Pete

Until the economy improves.

Good point

"Without straying too far off topic, its been reported that Lionel has sold more of the fantasy schemed Daylight SP Cab Forwards than the ones with the prototypical paint jobs.

It would appear the kids out number the adults regardless what the calendar says."

 

From what I have been told, yes the Daylight version Cab Forwards have outsold the prototypical model. I don't think that age has anything to do with this. It is strictly a matter of "appeal" and the majority of those buying this engine were more drawn to the Daylight version, me included.

 

Bringing things back on topic here, lest we get into a whole other issue with the fantasy Daylight cab forward that other threads haven't been able to settle ....

 

PTC's point is well-taken... Namely, it's all about "appeal".  And what Lionel did with their latest rendition of the CZ just does not appeal to consumers.  Even Lionel die-hard loyalists are having trouble swallowing the Koolaid on this one.

 

Lionel hit a grand slam with the Daylight Cab Forward.  (Can't wait to get mine.)  Unfortunately, they struck out big time with the CZ... and we have no idea what we're gonna get (relative to aluminum passenger cars) when they come to bat again.

 

David

 

Wasn't there a previous run of cab forwards? If so, then wouldn't most who wanted the scale version already bought one?

It could be that for someone outside the hobby that while your views are atypical .. much like mine on subjective appeal..they seem contradictory. A fantasy Daylight cab forward is a home run and you want one and the CZ has no appeal, a fail,  because its

essentially non realistic. Appeal just might be a hit or miss target as part of the overall equation..of representation, quality and predictability. This is not a criticism of anyone but these split opinions seem as confusing as the manufacturer's plans and delivery and the two might be related. Although if the Daylight scheme is not as its represented when delivered, here we go again...sounds like how the proposed product is represented as a "as promised" purchase ( a match ) might be the real issue.

Disappointing since I already have the KCS E8's. I decided to go ahead and order the KCS 20-65222 set from MTH last night. Hope they match. When I get these and confirm I will order the two car set of MTH cars as well. The MTH cars look more prototypical based on the diaphragms between cars. That thick black rubber car width diaphragm was not prototypical on KCS cars and now that I look at it closer I guess I will cancel the SP Sunset limited cars as well. That black diaphragm kills the look on those sunset cars as well. MTH looks like it got it right on those also. 

Joe

I pity the folks at Lionel. You guys must keep their heads spinning. You snap up their fantasy offerings then whine their rolling stock isn't prototypical. 

BTW David, the original topic was cataloged items are being dropped. You seem to think its due to Lionel not having their act together. Some of us believe its just due to lack of interest. 

 

Pete

Perhaps, but there's this thing called the technology treadmill that plays games with everyone's mind.  You know... gotta have the latest and greatest, leaving the former stuff in the dust.  Lionel is counting on Legacy and whistle-steam being the big draw here -- same with the re-issue of the Berks.

 

The former run of the PM 1225 Berk was hot, hot, hot on the secondary market for Polar Express enthusiasts.  Now it's already a "has-been" with the new models due out with whistle-steam as an added bonus.

 

David 

Interesting points. let me add this. The scale cab forward was offered in both prototypical and fantasy paint schemes, the CZ cars were offered only in a non prototypical scheme.

 

I've witnessed the treadmill for 35 years. Maybe more people are seeing it for what it is and coming to their senses. The people who were telling us a few years ago how great the features were are clearly idiots. I'll get a head start and tell people here that these electronics and features today are pretty lame. What is coming in the future is so much better.  

 

Good for Lionel for making a profit on the fantasy stuff, though.

I think as the boomer or older generations aged and as railroads became monolithic and pretty much vanished from the public view, like the passenger trains that were so common, the variety of local roads, the younger generation largely shifted to electronics and away from model trains. So from what I can see, they tried to have it both ways, appeal to the electronics crowd and the traditionalists. Add the resulting costs and the adult crowd shrinking leading to build on demand confusion, you sort of have a logical pathway to the confusing state of the hobby as it stands. Its bound to shrink some more and it will be interesting which one of the top three will become the Ives of tomorrow. Lionel by MTH or MTH by Lionel? Or perhaps MTH-Lionel Inc. One thing is for sure, what the consumer wants is all over the map which doesnt seem to please the majority of either camp..realism versus fantasy. And so it goes as the market shrinks.

Pete,

 

Don't think they offered the Cab Forward with the same as delivered lettering scheme in the black paint. It would have made a fine looking locomotive. 

 

No Dome/Observation for the California Zephyr is like painting a 707 silver and calling it an E-3 AWAC's!

I have been trying without success ever since the Cab Forward was announced if it would be offered in the as-built paint scheme but no one has been able or willing to tell me if it will be.

The Post '45 scheme that is offered is of course prototypical.

 

Now back to the original topic.....what was that again?

 

Pete

I dunno.  My treadmill's standing in the corner.  Makes a decent enough shelf and an even better coat rack...

 

Rusty

I understand people who want prototypical accuracy and insist on and are willing to pay for it.  I'm not one of them but it does not mean I don't understand.  I even respect it.

 

I'm rather the opposite - if I like it and it looks good, fine enough.  As I said in an earlier post, I stopped waiting for Lionel and ordered a seven-car set of the new MTH 72" long UP smoothside passenger cars for my UP A-B-A E9s/8 (Legacy E-9s, MTH B dummy unit) to pull.  I have no idea if these cars are very prototypical or not, but they ought to look good with the diesels and that's what I like.  

I will admit that there have been some great products in the last 20 years. But, when Lionel blows it. They blow it big time. The Comodore Vanderbilt paint scheme, round top rail fast track,and now this set of CZ cars are the biggest blunders to me. How they got people to buy Fastrak is beyond me. I went to Atlas O.

Nothing wrong with that approach.

 

Lionel's 18" aluminum cars have always been my preferred choice for passenger cars.  I just don't have the real estate right now to make 21" cars look good, although I did spring for the Atlas-O CZ in hopes of someday having a HUGE O-Gauge layout to do it justice.    But if Lionel can't produce aluminum cars like they did during the mid-2000's decade, then MTH puts out a great product in ABS plastic. 

 

MTH abandoned aluminum car production years ago... perhaps as far back as 2000 when they did the Millenium train as their last aluminum set?  Someone please correct me if I'm wrong.

 

David

Like it, or hate it, FasTrack, with it's proven success can't be considered a blunder. It serves a need and satisfies a demographic. On the other hand, I agree that when Lionel blows it, they go big. Case in point, the CZ is well beyond a mere stubbing of the toe.