Lionel California Zephyr 18" Passenger cars 2-packs - photos

The finish is not what I would have expected from Lionel, but even more interesting are the diaphragms.

They look nice.  The K-Line cars were so shiny they looked like chrome plate.  I prefer the anodized finish, or just bare aluminum.  They also look like Lionel made an attempt to duplicate the real trucks, although shortened.

I prefer the narrower diaphragms shown above, but originally most railroads used full width diaphragms in an attempt to streamline the outside appearance.  With most model trains, the diaphragms are a don't care item, since it takes really wide radii to make them work.

I know they must negotiate unusually tight turns but what happened to the lower skirting?  The whole rail hugging appearance is lost.  We're back to the high water equipment of yesterday.

Bruce

I'm just glad to see Lionel FINALLY get these out the door!    This has been one of the longest overdue deliveries that I can recall from Lionel.  Hopefully the other 2-pack and 4-pack aren't too far behind, so folks can assemble the whole train (from Lionel).

I do prefer the polished aluminum, but I'd be OK with the variety that comes along with something a bit different here.  Haven't seen the full black diaphragms in a while, but Lionel has been known to use them every now and then. The big wildcard will be if Lionel produced a domed observation in the 4-pack.  The catalog showed a regular observation, which as we know is not prototypical for the CZ.  I guess we'll know soon enough.

David

David, both 2-packs have shipped, just waiting for the 4-pack.

The lack of skirting is bizarre - much prefer the skirted cars with cutouts for the trucks.

These are nice. I did not know they were out.  Lionel (and others) seem to slowly get better and better.  Maybe not as fast as everyone wants, but over time . . . 

Thanks for the update

I'm surprised that Lionel painted these in silver paint. I saw some pre-production models and these were finished in polished aluminum, and looked really nice. The full width diaphragms look and operate very nice. 

Wonder why Lionel changed from polished to painted silver, which I think degrades the overall appearance of the CZ set.

RAY

After checking the catalog illustratio I realize Lionel got us again in that

1 - the product is 2 years late.

2 - the catalog illustration shows the 4 pack with full diaphrams and the 2 packs with partial.

3 - the catalog shows the 2 vista domes in the 4 pack with skirts. All other cars are sans skirts.

I am so glad I also purchased the Atlas CZ. The finishes seem to be similar. Why Lionel does what it does to us on high end items is beyond me. THe wife says it is because men are stupid and will put up with it. She may have a point. After all a Y is a broken X. I will still enjoy my Lionel CZ.

Catalogs and products were more exciting when viewed with innocent eyes of a kid in the 1950's

One thing to be said regarding the finish of the cars is that they will closely match Lionel's offering of the associated F-3s.

They look good to me.

These cars are terrible.  How could Lionel mess us the diaphragms so badly...ouch.  Can't wait to see pics of the flat glass dome cars.  Why would anyone buy these when Atlas is making much better cars?  I can only guess 18" are the attraction, but Lionel is so sloppy with the accuracy it hurts my eyes.

Is it me, or does it seem based on the pictures above that the window glazing is protruding out from the window frames instead of being flush or slightly recessed?

Thanks for the pictures of these new cars.  I have my "love/hate" reaction going here.  There's a lot of each with these and I guess it will come down to which is the most significant.  If it doesn't have a dome observation, that would be the deal breaker for sure for me.

Art

And there you have it... two differing views, which is pretty much what I've come to expect with ANY topic discussed here on the forum.  Always makes me smile though when the polar opposites occur in back-to-back posts!!! 

Overall, I find it particularly ironic that no vendor has yet to produce a CZ train without issues.  And it's arguable one of the most storied trains representing the epitome of first-class rail excellence in its day.

Lionel's latest version will likely have a domeless observation car -- a glaring mis-step, in addition to some of the other issues sighted earlier in this thread.  And Atlas-O's version has been riddled with painfully long delays and paint-finish variations as a result of issuing cars individually rather than as a complete set over a period which may very well exceed 6 years when all is said and done. 

Welcome to what some folks are calling the "Golden Age" of O-Gauge Railroading amidst the ever-increasing "good-enough mentality" that's becoming all-too-common when dealing with overseas suppliers looking to cut corners wherever they can.  

David

Something looks odd about them... the skirting is one item... the trucks maybe?

I'll stick with the Atlas cars

I am sure glad these cars were not on my shopping list. The finish to me is a real deal breaker. Even the name boards are the dull painted treatment. To be consistent, I don't care for the Atlas CZ cars as well for the same reason. They sure don't look like they are fresh out of the wash rack as they left CUS.

It does beg the question as to what Lionel's future treatment will be for the stainless steel appearance of their future sets. Case in point, the Wabash Blue Bird set. If the finish is anything like these CZ cars and they intend to use paint for a polished aluminum treatment, am definitely out.

Thank goodness for the K-Line CZ sets!!!!!!!!

These cars were once on my list but no more. They look terrible and a very poor job on Lionel's part. 

I know they can do better then this.

The best thing to do is to refuse to take delivery or send them back. They must be held accountable. 

Yeah I think its going "skirtless", just does not look good on these cars.

Here is a picture of the Empire State Express Cars with the skirts.

This sure has stirred up a lot of discussion, mostly negative about the Lionel CZ cars.

I remember what some long time model master told me years ago:

This is a hobby, not reality, and should be enjoyed by what YOU like most about the hobby. That there are several layers to this hobby:rivet counters, semi-scalers, model/toy train operators, collectors, etc. If you really like something prototypically correct or not, it shouldn't matter what others may think about your modeling interests. It only matters to you.

That being said, there will be a number of individuals that will overlook the flaws in the Lionel CZ cars. These will most likely be the toy train operators who are not interested in correctness. But then, most all of Lionel products are really not prototypically correct. 

For me, I am not a rivet counter, but want to capture the essence of the model. So I put myself in the semi-scaler level.

I too am disappointed in the final finish of the Lionel CZ cars. It's lack of finish and lack of a skirt has turned me off, especially since I saw a couple of the pre-production models.

But remember, at 18 inches that's only 71 scale feet, not 82 feet as were the actual CZ cars. There is no excuse for the flat painted finish. And perhaps the missing skirts were done so these cars can run on smaller radius track. 

To compare most Lionel models to a true scale model, is like comparing tofu to apples. They don't taste the same.

Lionel, in my opinion, for the most part puts out a very good product. I think that they know their target market is to hi-rail modelers; semi-scale, toy operators, collectors, etc and NOT to the "rivet counters". 

So the next time someone comes out with a model of, say, the Pioneer Zephyr painted as either a Yankee Flyer or in a green and red Christmas scheme, it may not appeal to me, or to other true CB&Q modelers, but there are others who will jump in a add it to their collection.

Ray

Smart woman!!!

Just keep buying those "Greenie-Stick-Em-A-Windows" boys, you'll never get anything better.

You be the judge. What finish and skirting treatment looks better to you, top or bottom photo. 

I can't disagree, Brian. But the issues don't cease with finish and lack of skirts. Lets not discount the diaphragms and Barney-Google windows, let alone the rumored sans-dome observation car, a crucial feature of this train. I love Lionel, but they laid an egg with this effort. What a complete disappointment.

This CZ is just SO bad.  No dome observation, flat window domes, no skirts, totally wrong diaphragms, not sure about the finish.  Lionel can do a nice set.  Their 18"  aluminum set the B&O Columbian was so accurate, so beautifully painted, correct domes, every car was close to the real deal.  Lately they just screw up these passenger sets big time.  Look at the diaphragms....come on, how could this happen?  The lack of skirts?  For $150+ per car.  No good.

Well, Lionel is dealing with China......"Bingo!  With the lack of delivery of aluminum passenger cars over the past couple of years, it seems like Lionel was attempting to find a factory to manufacturer these cars.......did Lionel find a factory that used to make sardine cans or maybe chicken feeders? 

I believe the CZ cars look awful.  I worry about what cars are going to released in the future.  China might have already screwed up on the Neil Young Texas Special F3 units as mentioned on another thread.  I can't see where Lionel would be happy with these passenger cars.

Steve, Lady and Tex

I have one K-Line CZ car, and I am reasonably happy with it, even though it is way too shiny.  I guess I am just a not-very-picky 2-railer - all I care about is accurate corrugations and proper length of body and trucks.  I did put longer wheelbase trucks on it.

Lionel's market has never been scale modelers, although lately they come close with things like the PA and the FEF.  But it seems to me that an 18" Pullman is aimed at those happy with something less than true scale models.

As to the skirts, surely you are aware that full skirts and O-72 curves will not work together, and that in later years almost all railroads removed the skirts for ease of maintenance?  Lionel compromised for you, and these cars can go around 3-rail curves.

I believe the polished aluminum came in with blemishes on the surface that couldn't be buffed out or otherwise repaired.  With no other viable financial options they decided on a repaint.  This is one of the reasons they've been delayed so long.

I wouldn't go to the bank with this, but I'm fairly certain.  How about a corroboration.  

Wonder why Lionel changed from polished to painted silver, which I think degrades the overall appearance of the CZ set.

Well, Lionel is dealing with China......"Bingo!  With the lack of delivery of aluminum passenger cars over the past couple of years, it seems like Lionel was attempting to find a factory to manufacturer these cars.......

I hate to wonder if this is a manufacturing limitation since Lionel has found a new vendor to make these cars.

Brian,

The K-line cars look good, but they have a horrendous power draw.  Before converting over to LEDs, I made a record of the amp draw of more than 80 cars.  It ranged from a low of 0.2a to a maximum of 1.3a.  On grade, an 11 amp throttle couldn't handle a two powered consist of more than 8 cars without significant voltage drops.  The newer MTH, Lionel, GGD, and Atlas cars have very little amperage draw.  Just one of the many considerations in choosing the best cars for a specific layout.

It's inexplicable that the observation car doesn't have a dome.  20+ years ago I mentioned to a buddy at a weekly train night gathering that I'd like to have a domed observation car using a postwar 2531.  He told me to bring the car and the dome to the following week's gathering along with the dome and he'd take care of it.  The week after that he returned with the car and it fit perfectly, very much like the observation dome in the picture above.  IIRC before giving him the car and dome I used a magic marker to indicate on the roof where the dome should go.

Perhaps the absence of the dome is a cost saving issue in eliminating the process of cutting the roof or having to put an interior in it, or both.  I have no interest in the 18" cars, but if I was, the domeless obs car would be a deal breaker.

Does anyone have a picture of a CZ without a dome observation?  I have a few books and I always notice that the CZ has the dome obs car, even when the consist had shrunk to 5 or so cars and the CZ was on its death bed.

Carl

I have three Lionel so called scale streamline passenger sets; the Congressional, the Empire State Express, the Canadian Pacific. This is going to be the forth. I am very pleased with the first three. I thought Lionel would put the energy into the production of this set that had gone into others. I am sadly mistaken. It took two additional years to bring this crap to market. BTW what do you all think is Lionels most attractive and accurate scale streamliner.

Sadly, they should not match.....

No Dome Observation?

No Side Skirts?

No Small Diaphrams?

As PTC asks, "It does beg the question as to what Lionel's future treatment will be for the stainless steel appearance of their future sets. Case in point, the Wabash Blue Bird set. If the finish is anything like these CZ cars and they intend to use paint for a polished aluminum treatment, am definitely out"

What about the Rock Island?, the  Southern?, the Texas Special? the Southern Pacific?

Have our cancelled the set we ordered just to be safe.

Ray of Sunshine may say it best:

"For me, I am not a rivet counter, but want to capture the essence of the model."

I think you hit the "nail on the head" here. $150.00 a car is just out of its market for a semi-scale passenger car.

Was there a tool change that eliminated the skirts? Really not clear why Lionel chose to do this.

I believe the best looking cars Lionel made in a streamlined set are the Empire State Express cars with station sound diners. Next are Broadway limited cars for the PRR S-1 class Duplex.

Looking at some of the cars. I could not find any CZ cars without skirts or large diaphragms and not to produce the end dome car is just a down right shame...

If you double check the image of the Silver Platter, it clearly was delivered with full width diaphragms.  But, obviously, they didn't last too long in regular service.

Everyone is correct about the dome-obs.  That's the signature car of the CZ.

Another thing about un-skirted passenger cars, they still have to have steps under the vestibule and stirrups on the other end.

Rusty

"The K-line cars look good, but they have a horrendous power draw."

Bill, I agree. I can get by as I planned enough power for my main line to adequately handle the power draw, but this is something that needs to be done in the future. It will be a big job as I have converted much of my passenger train inventory to 21" K-Line. 

They make LED lighting strips that will swap out of the incandescent lights and plug right in. The boards even slide down the same roof extrusion. The problem is prying the vestibules off without damaging the paint... and of course getting them back together... very frustrating.

As PTC asks, "It does beg the question as to what Lionel's future treatment will be for the stainless steel appearance of their future sets. Case in point, the Wabash Blue Bird set. If the finish is anything like these CZ cars and they intend to use paint for a polished aluminum treatment, am definitely out"

Lima, your re-posting my comments from yesterday is very timely. After looking at the photos provided above by the OPS, I sent an e-mail to Matt Ashba from Lionel about my concerns for the upcoming Wabash 18" set. Anyone who has had the pleasure to have met Matt knows him to be a great guy and a real credit to Lionel. He responded almost immediately about the planned finish of the Wabash set. According to Matt, this set will also be a painted finish. He recognized, very politely, that this would probably not make me happy as I had indicated in my e-mail to him that I much prefer the polished look. He was very correct.

I have since the time I first received a Lionel train set as a kid been a very loyal supporter for Lionel. I still am. But I will not buy any product that is a complete turnoff to me as these painted aluminum passenger cars are. I called my dealer this morning and they were very understanding about my cancellation of this set and my specific reasons just why (this is a good reason why I do business with them).

Charles Ro is having an Open House Event a week from this coming Saturday and the Lionel President is scheduled to be present. If he hasn't followed this Thread, I will strongly suggest that he do so. I think we at this Forum represent a good cross section of opinion and he should know what is our thinking for their latest CZ release.