For some years I thought that I was safe, and above all this catalogue-new-stuff buying.
Now I have to wrestle with this GM&O PA AA set - with 4 motors, apparently! And the cars.
Unh.
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@D500 posted:For some years I thought that I was safe, and above all this catalogue-new-stuff buying.
Now I have to wrestle with this GM&O PA AA set - with 4 motors, apparently! And the cars.
Unh.
Has anyone seen one of these as they were produced? The photos in the catalog have several errors in the paint scheme. I wonder if Lionel corrected those?
I have not seen them, nor do I really know if they were produced. I did not order, partly because I saw what a friend's Lionel GM&O E-units (special run by McMuffins, I think) looked like. They looked orange in some light, and, while I hate to pass on any GM&O, I did. Heaven knows, I didn't have room for them.
Oh, they were produced! They’re on the way to me.
I’ll post pictures when they arrive.
Like all of Lionel's AA sets these days (E8's, sharks), these PA's still have the static-noise at low volume in Legacy. That was enough to make me avoid them. But I'd love to see them. I would have purchased the Cotton Belt, GM&O, and MKT but for the sound "feature".
@D500 posted:I have not seen them, nor do I really know if they were produced. I did not order, partly because I saw what a friend's Lionel GM&O E-units (special run by McMuffins, I think) looked like. They looked orange in some light, and, while I hate to pass on any GM&O, I did. Heaven knows, I didn't have room for them.
This is what worries me buying pre-order items sight-unseen. If you look at the catalog photos of the Lionel GM&O PA set, the colors are way off. And worse, they have the hood and side grills painted black. Most photos show those areas dirty with grime, but not painted solid black! Lionel made a similar mistake on the Lehigh Valley PA's a few years ago, as I recall. But MTH got it right on theirs. So, no excuses, really.
The Williams GM&O PA's have the correct paint scheme. They are actually very nicely painted (but I think they may have the wrong road numbers?). The issue with the Williams PA's is although the model is scale sized, the fuel tank is way too small. I have them and I would like to find a correct sized fuel tank for them. They are also missing some details, like handrails, that can be added pretty easily. And, of course, they are conventional, so electronics would need to be upgraded, if desired. But I think that I paid only around $150 for the Williams GM&O PA A-A set, brand new, so lots of $ left over for upgrades.
If the paint scheme issues were not corrected on the Lionel model, I think that I will just upgrade the Williams model rather than shell out nearly $1,000 for the Lionel model that I would have to repaint. But especially for those who pre-ordered, I really hope that Lionel fixed those issues.
The Cotton Belt PA set illustration in the Lionel catalog is even worse in that they have the wrong number boards. And Lionel has issued PA's with both types of number boards, so they had a 50% chance of getting that right, 100% chance with a 5-minute internet photo search. I hope that they fixed that, or I will pass on those too, because that cannot really be corrected without buying new shells and repainting, so what would be the point?
Based on Lionel's recent failure rate with diesel paint schemes and details, I have little confidence that they got it right on these. But I will wait for the photos to pass judgement. I really dislike this whole mystery of sight-unseen pre-ordered products.
Full disclosure -
I took a huge chance given Lionel’s track record. For the life of me, I simply cannot understand why they can’t get colors right. I can’t chalk it up to blind affection as I have many, many manufacturers in my collection. But two GM&O offerings in one catalog AND passenger cars, I figured I’d roll the dice. I ordered from a very reputable and understanding and awesome forum sponsor - if there was a huge problem, I’m sure I’ll be ok, and that’s the reason why I pre-ordered.
@N'awlins posted:Full disclosure -
I took a huge chance given Lionel’s track record. For the life of me, I simply cannot understand why they can’t get colors right.
Modern trains are being built by people who have no idea whatsoever what they are supposed to look like. Since all train builds are batch jobs, there is no history or continuity of design expertise.
I bought three of the Milwaukee Road milk cars in that odd, never used as far as I know "pumpkin" color scheme and with the horrible couplers that throw the cars off the track. Why? I love the Milwaukee road, but was certainly a sucker.
@N'awlins posted:Full disclosure -
I took a huge chance given Lionel’s track record. For the life of me, I simply cannot understand why they can’t get colors right. I can’t chalk it up to blind affection as I have many, many manufacturers in my collection. But two GM&O offerings in one catalog AND passenger cars, I figured I’d roll the dice. I ordered from a very reputable and understanding and awesome forum sponsor - if there was a huge problem, I’m sure I’ll be ok, and that’s the reason why I pre-ordered.
Yeah, I am with you on that. I ordered the Lionel GM&O E7 A-A set and the colors look faded. But at least Lionel got the basic paint scheme correct on them.
@Jtrain posted:This is what worries me buying pre-order items sight-unseen. If you look at the catalog photos of the Lionel GM&O PA set, the colors are way off. And worse, they have the hood and side grills painted black. Most photos show those areas dirty with grime, but not painted solid black! Lionel made a similar mistake on the Lehigh Valley PA's a few years ago, as I recall. But MTH got it right on theirs. So, no excuses, really.
The Williams GM&O PA's have the correct paint scheme. They are actually very nicely painted (but I think they may have the wrong road numbers?). The issue with the Williams PA's is although the model is scale sized, the fuel tank is way too small. I have them and I would like to find a correct sized fuel tank for them. They are also missing some details, like handrails, that can be added pretty easily. And, of course, they are conventional, so electronics would need to be upgraded, if desired. But I think that I paid only around $150 for the Williams GM&O PA A-A set, brand new, so lots of $ left over for upgrades.
If the paint scheme issues were not corrected on the Lionel model, I think that I will just upgrade the Williams model rather than shell out nearly $1,000 for the Lionel model that I would have to repaint. But especially for those who pre-ordered, I really hope that Lionel fixed those issues.
jtrain, Years ago I wanted a set of the 'Aspen Leaf' PAs that I'd seen in photos and in N scale. It appeared to be a simple paint job so I decided to try it and ordered some D&RG decals. The 'high-water' look on most Wms diesels always bothered me and killed the 'massive, hunkered down' look of a real PA. Was able to add some balsa sides to the stock fuel tank of these Santa Fe's and paint for a much improved appearance. Part of the problem I think is that the Wms trucks are undersized as well exacerbating the visual problem. I was able to have an ABA set of these long before any manufacturer produced them in O Scale.
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@RoyBoy posted:Modern trains are being built by people who have no idea whatsoever what they are supposed to look like. Since all train builds are batch jobs, there is no history or continuity of design expertise.
True...but the people ordering them in the first place and accepting them (in this case, Lionel)...are supposed to, no? 🙂
Mark in Oregon 🎄
@c.sam posted:jtrain, Years ago I wanted a set of the 'Aspen Leaf' PAs that I'd seen in photos and in N scale. It appeared to be a simple paint job so I decided to try it and ordered some D&RG decals. The 'high-water' look on most Wms diesels always bothered me and killed the 'massive, hunkered down' look of a real PA. Was able to add some balsa sides to the stock fuel tank of these Santa Fe's and paint for a much improved appearance. Part of the problem I think is that the Wms trucks are undersized as well exacerbating the visual problem. I was able to have an ABA set of these long before any manufacturer produced them in O Scale.
I thought it was just the fuel tank that was too small on the Williams. I have the MTH PA's and the trucks seem similar in size to the Williams, but the fuel tank is MUCH smaller on the Williams. I think that is the real problem. It seems like it would be an easy 3D printing job to print a correct scale-sized fuel tank for the Williams PA. I imagine that they would look pretty darn good with that "upgrade." Do you have a close up photo of your "upgraded" Williams PA's?
I have been told by experts that the Williams was scale sized. It always looked too small to me.
The 82000 series Lionel PAs are about as accurate as they get. A scale PA truck has brake shoe beams that interfere with the fuel tank area, but not by much.
Hope they get the colors right.
The units are packed away and the B unit is a MTH Premiere. When they are coupled together you can easily see the difference in the size of the trucks. The Wms are definitely undersized - a real PA has huge 'feet' like a puppy! Here is the only other shot I can lay my hands on at the moment. With apologies to OGR 
Check out this 3rd Rail PA for a comparison. My modified fuel tank above is way too big!
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jtrain, can you post a pic or two of your Wms PA's? I remember them offered but never saw a set in person.
@c.sam posted:jtrain, can you post a pic or two of your Wms PA's? I remember them offered but never saw a set in person.
I don't have them out now, but here are some nice photos of the Williams set:
@bob2 posted:I have been told by experts that the Williams was scale sized. It always looked too small to me.
The 82000 series Lionel PAs are about as accurate as they get. A scale PA truck has brake shoe beams that interfere with the fuel tank area, but not by much.
Hope they get the colors right.
That makes sense. I think that the Williams PA is missing those brake shoe beams on the trucks, which does make the trucks appear to be not long enough. Also, I think that the Williams pilot does not wrap around far enough. But the Williams shell appears to be the correct size, although I have not measured it. So, an "upgrade" to the Williams would probably require new truck side frames, a new fuel tank, and a new pilot, to appear true to scale. That could be a little difficult/costly.
@c.sam - Feet like a puppy. That’s a great description of PAs!
Pictures are up on Mr. Muffin’s website. Although not perfect, the colors work for me.
While you’re there, check out the GN pacific - probably the winner of the bunch.
