Lionel 2131440 LEGACY Camelback 4-6-0 Steam Locomotive Reading #652 Jerky stop in reverse

Your symptoms sound awfully familiar to the problems exhibited by the Legacy L1’s & I1’s …..In reverse, the aforementioned locomotives lose their gear engagement, and skip teeth, and in some instances, jam up and lock, triggering a fault code for motor stall. Not saying this is the cause of your model, but the problem needs to be diagnosed and documented. Always look at simple solutions first. Check traction tires possibly rubbing against brake shoes, loose fasteners, etc, etc, ….if no joy with simple checks, post a video of the issue, and we’ll go from there….

Pat

OK- thanks for the tip. I'll check it out, and if no joy, I'll post a video.

I’d look for at least something easy. Make sure you have clearance between the brake shoes and the drivers.  Especially the ones located on the traction tire. The traction tire itself. Lionel tends to put extra thick tires on some models that can rub on the brake shoe. Yes sometimes you only notice it going in one direction.

If you feel comfortable taking the shell off. You can turn the flywheel with your fingers. You should be able to feel if something’s binding or hanging up. If you find something. Such as an issue in the linkage but your not certain that’s the problem. Before you start bending things. Just remove that piece and see if there’s any improvement. If you don’t do a lot of repair work. Snap a few pictures for references.

Lionel has had some gearbox issues. More so with locking up. There is a list somewhere on the Forum. The majority of issues were with the Pennsy K4. But other models share the same gearbox design.

yep, traction tire. I had a loco doing the same thing and it was caused by a traction tire.

@harmonyards posted:

Your symptoms sound awfully familiar to the problems exhibited by the Legacy L1’s & I1’s

A blast from the not so distant past!

OK- I did replace the tires on my Legacy BTO Chesapeake & Ohio, and replacement tires DID look slightly thinner than the originals, but it still does that little "jump" right after I stop it in reverse. It's like it's going into the next tooth in a gear. I hope I'm not wasting anyone's time on this. It's really a minor issue, and only comes into play when I'm trying to create a precision program where the engine stops at some operating track, and unloads. Trying to line up the engine precisely is a little tedious because of that little jump, which amounts to maybe 1/8"?? Now, the Legacy CamelBack does the same thing.

BUT, the tiny GraniteRun Quarry Lion Chief Plus 2.0 does NOT do the jump- it stops COMPLETELY without any further motion.

Same thing with my Lion Chief Plus Hudson Nickel Plate Road steamer- it comes to a complete stop.

Now, nothing is locking up, and I'm getting the feeling that this might be normal.  I have to admit, if I am careful with the CAB2 remote, and set the reverse speed at 1, and allow 4 or 5 "chugs", and the slowly turn the knob left, I can usually avoid that little jerky motion. Maybe 4 times out of 5. I think it's when I abruptly spin that knob back that I get that Jump.

Here is the Legacy Camel Back.  That jerking motion is a little more pronounced I think compared to the Chesepeake & Ohio.

Just curious as to what you have the momentum set at. If it’s set at High your engine will slowly creep to a stop and maybe you will get that last little twitch before it stops. Maybe try the Low setting.

How does it stop using the Brake Thumbwheel ?

It does the same thing with the Brake Thumbwheel.  The Camel Back seems to behave the worse as far as that jump.

I have the momentum at LOW. I also tried Medium and High.

I wondering if anyone knows the out of warranty Lionel rate? Should I send it to North Carolina?  How Long??

@jpepe3691 posted:

It does the same thing with the Brake Thumbwheel.  The Camel Back seems to behave the worse as far as that jump.

I have the momentum at LOW. I also tried Medium and High.

I wondering if anyone knows the out of warranty Lionel rate? Should I send it to North Carolina?  How Long??

Lionel doesn’t do out of warranty repairs. If the locomotive(s) seem to act as advertised in forward, but do stupid things in reverse only, this certainly sounds like these exhibit the same issue we’ve chronicled on the latest Lionel Legacy L1’s & I1’s as I’ve mentioned beforehand. Your Lionchief locomotives don’t exhibit this issue because more than likely they have a different internal construction difference. (frame & gearing)

Pat

There sure looks like something mechanical, I even heard a metallic clink when it jumped!

I happen to have the exact same Camelback, no jumping here.  I'd be looking real close at the drive rods, it moved almost a full rev before the jump, that wouldn't be the worm and worm gear I don't believe.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

There sure looks like something mechanical, I even heard a metallic clink when it jumped!

I happen to have the exact same Camelback, no jumping here.  I'd be looking real close at the drive rods, it moved almost a full rev before the jump, that wouldn't be the worm and worm gear I don't believe.

The L1’s & I1’s sometimes can make a full revolution before they they get herky jerky. As I said previously, the problem needs to be diagnosed. While the OP’s issue looks like the gear jump problems of the two Pennsy models, I also said he needs to look at possibly loose fasteners, ( especially the motor mounts, as I’ve encountered ALOT of loose fasteners these days ) ……..

Pat

You are certainly correct pat, I think it needs further diagnosis.  Motor mounts are a real possibility, there's only two screws there, and as you say, a lot of loose screws nowadays, and not only in our locomotives.

Gunrunner- Playing your Camel Back video, where it is slowly moving in reverse, I can see it TOO jumps slightly- exactly where the rear light jumps to line up with the left side of the remote control.  That's what makes me believe that I just might be beating a dead horse? This slight jump just might be inherent on this particular engine, and really doesn't affect the overall performance, so maybe I should just give up?

PS- By the way, I took your advice, and got brave enough to take the shell off, and turned the flywheel by hand, especially in the reverse direction, and I really didn't FEEL any resistance points.

@jpepe3691 posted:

Gunrunner- Playing your Camel Back video, where it is slowly moving in reverse, I can see it TOO jumps slightly- exactly where the rear light jumps to line up with the left side of the remote control.  That's what makes me believe that I just might be beating a dead horse? This slight jump just might be inherent on this particular engine, and really doesn't affect the overall performance, so maybe I should just give up?

PS- By the way, I took your advice, and got brave enough to take the shell off, and turned the flywheel by hand, especially in the reverse direction, and I really didn't FEEL any resistance points.

Since you had the shell off, did you do a fastener check? …….were any loose?

Pat  

@jpepe3691 posted:

Gunrunner- Playing your Camel Back video, where it is slowly moving in reverse, I can see it TOO jumps slightly- exactly where the rear light jumps to line up with the left side of the remote control.

I'm not seeing anything, it had a slight jerk when I stopped it by hitting the direction button, but I don't think that's anything.

Is this locomotive new, and barely run? …..Lionel is notorious nowadays for skimping on grease. If it’s new and barely run, shoot some grease in the gearbox, oil all the moving parts, and run it for a good break in period before condemning anything…

Pat

This engine is 2 years old, and this problem has existed since day one. I've lubricated everything I could think of, especially the rods.

While I had the shell off, I did notice that the motor was a little loose, so I tightened the two mounting screws. I didn't notice anything else, like any loose connections. It is still doing the same thing- reverse, stop, BUMP. reverse, stop, BUMP.  I can sometimes prevent this by reversing in the FIRST speed 1- really crawling, and half the time it can stop without that final jerk if I turn that speed knob down to zero SLOWLY

If you want to cure this issue, it’s going to take some diagnostics to figure it out. Probably more than you’d like to encounter…….you would need to verify the chassis rolls super smoothly by itself, with the motor disconnected. A smooth rolling chassis is imperative for such a small motor to maintain a perfect speed, especially at such low rpm’s/voltage applied. If the chassis is super smooth in both directions, the next thing to look at is the gear engagement in conjunction with motor shaft end play. The end play can be crucial as the worm gear moves back and forth over the worm wheel. Critical gear alignment, such as the case of the L1/I1 can cause the gear to disengage as the worm gear moves over the worm wheel on the blind spot of the worm gear.

So unless you want to dig in deep, this might be something to just live with. You stated the locomotive is two years old, but how much running has it done? I’d again suggest a good break in period if this wasn’t done. Run the engine in loops with a moderate load, in both directions at varying speeds In attempt to wear the parts in …….

Pat

@jpepe3691 posted:

This engine is 2 years old, and this problem has existed since day one. I've lubricated everything I could think of, especially the rods.

Did you lube the worm and worm gear inside the gearbox when you had it open?

Actually, I didn't grease the worm and worm gear because I didn't know exactly how to GET at them.

Any guidance would be welcome. Initially I thought that the PCB would have to come off? I did notice that the motor was a little loose, so I tightened the two screws from underneath. That was easy. But didn't do any  good.

How can I adjust the gear alignment?

My Blue Comet Camelback has this same issue and I have just been in "just live with it" camp, but interested in hearing grease helps resolve your issue.

@harmonyards posted:

Your symptoms sound awfully familiar to the problems exhibited by the Legacy L1’s & I1’s …..In reverse, the aforementioned locomotives lose their gear engagement, and skip teeth, and in some instances, jam up and lock, triggering a fault code for motor stall. Not saying this is the cause of your model, but the problem needs to be diagnosed and documented. Always look at simple solutions first. Check traction tires possibly rubbing against brake shoes, loose fasteners, etc, etc, ….if no joy with simple checks, post a video of the issue, and we’ll go from there….

Pat

Stupid question- What are Legacy L1's and I1's?????

@jpepe3691 posted:

Actually, I didn't grease the worm and worm gear because I didn't know exactly how to GET at them.

Any guidance would be welcome. Initially I thought that the PCB would have to come off? I did notice that the motor was a little loose, so I tightened the two screws from underneath. That was easy. But didn't do any  good.

How can I adjust the gear alignment?

In order to grease the worm & worm gear, you will have to remove the motor mount plate, there isn't a grease port for the gearbox on the Camelback.  I believe that might entail moving the PCB out of the way, but I don't think you have to unplug anything, just one screw to free it.

OK- I got brave, and got access to the gear box. This picture shows grease that appears thicker only on HALF of the worm, so I applied more grease along the entire length, and closed it back up, and put everything back together. I'm getting really good at taking this engine apart!  Although the reverse stop "BUMP" initially seemed to be less pronounced, and even though I ran it in reverse for 3 or 4 loops to "work in" the grease",  it still does that little "bounce" or "bump" after stopping in reverse. I have to mention that applying the brake wheel on the CAB2 rather than simply turning the wheel yields a couple of "BOUNCE FREE" stops in reverse.  Here's a picture of what the worm gear looked like when I first opened up the gear box:

PS- I almost forgot to mention that once I loosened the two motor mount screws, and was able to spin the wheels freely, I didn't really notice any "binding" in either direction.

@jpepe3691 posted:

OK- I got brave, and got access to the gear box. This picture shows grease that appears thicker only on HALF of the worm, so I applied more grease along the entire length, and closed it back up, and put everything back together. I'm getting really good at taking this engine apart!  Although the reverse stop "BUMP" initially seemed to be less pronounced, and even though I ran it in reverse for 3 or 4 loops to "work in" the grease",  it still does that little "bounce" or "bump" after stopping in reverse. I have to mention that applying the brake wheel on the CAB2 rather than simply turning the wheel yields a couple of "BOUNCE FREE" stops in reverse.  Here's a picture of what the worm gear looked like when I first opened up the gear box:

PS- I almost forgot to mention that once I loosened the two motor mount screws, and was able to spin the wheels freely, I didn't really notice any "binding" in either direction.

I have not seen inside one of these Camelbacks,…..So I’m seeing a divorced worm shaft, a coupler and a separate motor. Completely different than the legacy L1’s & I1’s …..So the jump you’re experiencing has nothing in common with those locomotives, as they are constructed completely differently…..Is the little dog bone between the two couplings on a weird looking angle? Do you see any misalignment of the two couplings that could cause the little dog bone to become jammed? The motors all of our beloved manufacturers are using these days are not what I call top shelf choices,…but there’s not a lot out there for our hobby, ……if everything else looks ok, and you’ve found a workaround that can satisfy you, I’d button it up and and get a cup of coffee, call it good,….

Pat

I think I and this forum has gone as far as possible with this Camel Back! I appreciate all the help, guys! I've resigned myself to accept the fact that this is as good as it gets. The "bump" or "jerk" now is  much less severe than it ever was- I'm talking about maybe 1/8" bump right after it stops. Before I lubed that worm gear the jerk was at times much more severe. Now it is consistently mild. I've attached a short video.  Now, where's that coffee??????...........

You maybe able to dial that in a little further using the brake function and some more throttle, and finessing her to a stop, and when she stops, whip the throttle off,………I haven’t seen one come across my plate with this complaint, …this could very well be a software issue, or a mechanical issue that’s just plain stubborn to pick out of the crowd,…..my grandfather told me every real steam locomotive he worked on had a personality of its own……So your’s is no exception,…….( take a sip from that cup of coffee )

Pat

Yes I know this is an old thread, I've been on vacation and away from the Forum for a few weeks.

I think that abruptness you're seeing is an artifact of the motor control algorithm. It might be more pronounced on some locos than others, but IMO to some extent it happens on all Legacy and ERR locos.

I noticed a long time ago: the way Legacy locos are programmed, when you dial the CAB-2 to step zero, the motor driver seems to command a firm STOP, the same kind you get if you short the terminals of a spinning motor.  It doesn't just cut voltage and allow the drivetrain to coast down (although my 6-11203 Berk will coast about 3 feet if you unplug the transformer when it's going all-out!)

I'm not sure WHY Lionel chose to do it this way.  I wish Legacy had Configuration Variables (CVs) like DCC does, giving us a choice of free coasting or a commanded stop.  However... back in my conventional days, one of the hardest things to achieve was a smooth start with the slack stretched (such as when you're creeping a train and you let it grind itself to a halt.)  Perhaps a firm stop is necessary to create a little slack in the drivetrain?  Maybe this allows the motor to build RPM and/or facilitates sensing rotation to achieve a smoother start.  Unless Jon Z chimes in, we may never know.

@Ted S posted:

I think that abruptness you're seeing is an artifact of the motor control algorithm. It might be more pronounced on some locos than others, but IMO to some extent it happens on all Legacy and ERR locos.

You've never noticed this on MTH PS/3?  It's very noticeable, even if you power off the track for a PS/3 locomotive it will jerk to a stop.

Yes John, we've exchanged posts about PS3 and the "no coast in conventional bug" that MTH never acknowledged or did anything about.  It was you who described the experiment of stopping a spinning permanent-magnet motor by shorting the terminals.  I learned something that day!

As you know my preference is to achieve smooth scale performance relying mostly on Newtonian physics.  The commanded STOP that's somewhat evident with ERR, PS3, etc. (which is the basis for this thread) conveys the impression of a servo-mechanism used in motion control or robotics.  It's not train-like and for me, it robs some of the sensation of controlling a heavy mass.  That's my opinion, just the way some folks enjoy driving old analog sports or muscle cars, even though modern vehicles are faster, more comfortable, and more effective.

In the earlier decades of model railroading, manufacturers and individual hobbyists got creative with means of transitioning smoothly from stopped to moving, and vice-versa.  Some custom loco builders installed centrifugal clutches, and at least one company made a liquid-filled torque converter or fluid coupling(!) to put between the motor and gear tower.  Messy and maintenance-intensive, but in some fashion they worked.  I had the good fortune to operate a diesel with a centrifugal clutch.  Despite being HO scale, it was all-metal and weighed over 2 lbs.  The clutch made quite a racket and it was challenging to switch with, but amazingly fun!!

What can be accomplished with today's electronics is amazing.  However, the programmers AND mechanical engineers need to work harder to achieve a realistic transition from zero... to one... to two mph.  Precious "moments" (if you'll allow me a Physics pun.)  Real trains don't run continuously at exactly four or five MPH for any length of time unless they're pushing cars over a hump or flood-loading coal.  It's those smooth transitions that make or break the illusion of realism.  My $.02.

I'm afraid we'll have to agree to disagree, at least for many of my Lionel locomotives.  I think the speed changes are pretty seamless.

I have nothing good to say about those drives. They are not your daddy’s Pittman drivelines, they are borderline starter set drives with a double reduction gear that is supposed to reduce backlash but isn’t totally effective. That being said, what you are seeing is not the infamous reverse lockup issues the L1s had. What you are seeing is pretty normal for the type of drive that engine has (Mabuchi RS385 or whatever). Imagine my lack of joy when these were put in the I1 Decs. The tuning on these is not that great but you can’t do much about it except play with the momentum assuming you are running in command.

Not sure why the NW2 is being shown here since it has such a completely different - and proper - driveline. Those are pretty nice runners all things considered.

Here’s one of my I1s going to zero speed from a crawl. Not sure why these drives were put in this larger and more pricey scale engine but for the price I paid for it I was not happy. Lionel does make better drivelines when they want to. I would describe what you’re seeing here as less than optimal tuning and control translated through a less than optimal driveline.

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

Not sure why the NW2 is being shown here since it has such a completely different - and proper - driveline. Those are pretty nice runners all things considered.

Ted's comments weren't about a specific locomotive.  I agree some locomotives don't do low speed as well.  Truthfully, MTH even admits that they don't do below 5 scale MPH well.

Glad I’m not the only one that thinks this way, …..that Legacy drive line in engine’s like Norm’s & the original poster’s are junk IMO, …..To be sure they could’ve fit at least the Cannon motor in some of these. The very least they could’ve done is tune these things better than what they are,……If they’re gonna charge high end model prices, the very least I’d expect is high end model performance, …….no?..

Pat

The NW2 succeeds in part because of physics.  It's one of the few 3R locos with a drivetrain that was designed and geared like the best 2-rail models.  Some people complained that their Legacy switchers ran too slowly; that's my kind of loco!  I wager that if you turned speed control "off" it would do almost as well.

Subsequent comments by Norm and Pat echo what I said- the programmers (tuning) and mechanical engineers (gear lash, motor specification) need to work a little harder to improve realism.  It's a train, not a copier or printer!

I still wonder why almost all of the control systems command a STOP at speed step zero, instead of just letting the drivetrain coast down.  I think that's what's evident in the original poster's video and Norm's decapod, too.

@Ted S posted:

The NW2 succeeds in part because of physics.  It's one of the few 3R locos with a drivetrain that was designed and geared like the best 2-rail models.  Some people complained that their Legacy switchers ran too slowly; that's my kind of loco!  I wager that if you turned speed control "off" it would do almost as well.

FWIW, I was never one of those people. I rarely run anything at more than 30-40 scale MPH, and that's usually passenger trains. Most freight lumbers along at half that speed.  When I got my Legacy Genset, I was really impressed with the low speed performance, when you turn the momentum way up on the Legacy control and run the Genset, it has pretty impressive low speed control.

@Ted S posted:

I still wonder why almost all of the control systems command a STOP at speed step zero, instead of just letting the drivetrain coast down.  I think that's what's evident in the original poster's video and Norm's decapod, too.

Truthfully, all control systems don't necessarily command a stop at zero speed if you use the throttle, Legacy again comes to mind as well as DCS.  Even TMCC has the momentum control so when you spin the throttle down, it will step the speed down.  If you smack the reverse key on the remote, they will indeed usually skid to a halt.  OTOH, prototype engineers would never be so stupid as to do something like that, so using the throttle to bring the train slowly to a stop is a better way to insure smoother stops.

Is all this control perfect?  Goodness no!  I spent a lot of time when I was designing cockpit instrumentation for aircraft just getting a instrument pointer to perfectly stop without overshoot but also without significant delay in reaching the commanded indication!  Note that it had to perform perfectly on all starting and rate of change conditions.  Now, you might think that should be a piece of cake, but it's not quite that simple.  I had the benefit of buying servo components that cost more than many modern O-scale locomotives cost, remember we doing this stuff train control stuff on a relative shoestring.  Sure it could be better, do you want to pay for it?

@Ted S posted:

Subsequent comments by Norm and Pat echo what I said- the programmers (tuning) and mechanical engineers (gear lash, motor specification) need to work a little harder to improve realism.  It's a train, not a copier or printer!

Jon Z. told me that every Legacy model has it's servo loop individually tuned to the characteristics of the drive-train for optimum performance.  I'd say they're doing a reasonably good job in most cases.  If there's a place for improvement, it would probably be in the mechanical arena, increasing the drive ratio from the current 16:1 or so to around 30:1 would be a good first step.  I don't agree with the 44:1 I have found on some Williams brass, that was overkill.  By the time you have a 44:1 drive train Williams running at 40 scale MPH, the motor sounds like it's going to go airborne!  Around 30:1 with modern electronics I believe would yield a very decent running product.

They might have some baseline tunings for each driveline style but what I really suspect is that they just move the speed schedule around to compensate for gear ratio and driver diameter. I still like Legacy way better than TMCC based Odyssey and I still like ERR which is good enough for upgrade projects. These systems really start to look dated when compared to Blunami though. It has full access to tuning plus some of the best and most useful (and realistic) momentum features. It would probably be trivial to get rid of that little hop-skip if one was inclined to install a Blunami into one of those K-Lionel drive engines.