Lionel 2131440 LEGACY Camelback 4-6-0 Steam Locomotive Reading #652 Jerky stop in reverse

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

They might have some baseline tunings for each driveline style but what I really suspect is that they just move the speed schedule around to compensate for gear ratio and driver diameter. I still like Legacy way better than TMCC based Odyssey and I still like ERR which is good enough for upgrade projects. These systems really start to look dated when compared to Blunami though. It has full access to tuning plus some of the best and most useful (and realistic) momentum features. It would probably be trivial to get rid of that little hop-skip if one was inclined to install a Blunami into one of those K-Lionel drive engines.

If they didn't require me to use a phone to run my trains and offered synchronized smoke, I'd be more inclined to consider Blunami. 

FWIW, I made that statement to Jon Z. about just tuning for gear ratio, and he insisted it was much more than that.  Since he wasn't specific, I don't have more information, but you might try asking him.

FWIW, at least for diesels, doing a Legacy upgrade with a non-Legacy chassis certainly can run into low speed issues, so I suspect it is actually slightly more than just gear ratio.  I've upgraded half a dozen MTH diesels to Legacy, and while the scale speeds matched a Legacy engine, the first few speed steps for at least half of them are not smooth.  I never see that with a factory Legacy engine, it's hit or miss with non-Lionel chassis.

One thing I can add for fact to this conversation is the legacy locomotives that are Cannon equipped from the factory, benefit two fold from a Pittman swap. I do see a noticeable improvement at the lowest speed steps vs. the Cannon, and of course, we get away from that possible failure which is the Cannon’s Achille’s Heel,…..personally, I think they’ve done all they can do with these RS385 single motor steam locomotives, as far as legacy is concerned……it’s still a 385, so it’s still lipstick on a pig, no matter how you slice it,………Now, a real test would be one of these single motored 385 locomotives with a compound gear box running on Blunami…….can you clean it up that good?…..

Pat

Well Pat, you got me on the Canon, that is a pig that doesn't benefit no matter how much lipstick you put on it!  That's absolutely no point in arguing against the Pittman replacement, that would be silly!

I also think that the dual 5-pole motor diesels with Legacy probably smooth out the low speed better than a single 5-pole motored small steamer.  Sadly, I don't know of a drop-in replacement for the RS-385 that would be a 7-pole motor, that would be a nice find.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well Pat, you got me on the Canon, that is a pig that doesn't benefit no matter how much lipstick you put on it!  That's absolutely no point in arguing against the Pittman replacement, that would be silly!

I also think that the dual 5-pole motor diesels with Legacy probably smooth out the low speed better than a single 5-pole motored small steamer.  Sadly, I don't know of a drop-in replacement for the RS-385 that would be a 7-pole motor, that would be a nice find.

If Pittman had a direct swap for the 385, or even something reasonably close, I’d never see the end of that campaign,……

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

If Pittman had a direct swap for the 385, or even something reasonably close, I’d never see the end of that campaign,……

Pat

Boy, that'd be a Godsend if that were the case.

I don't even hate the Mabuchi motors if they're used well. Lionel's been using this motor for decades. Last I've checked, this has been the motor Lionel's been using on their Camelbacks since the originals in 1999. I've upgraded a couple of the TMCC ones for ERR Cruise, and it definitely improves their performance greatly. I don't think I've noticed the familiar stutter on any of those I've upgraded.

My ancient (by today's standards) MTH designed Lionel Southern 4501 has this motor, too, but with the difference is the gearbox is the old bulletproof design that uses that nice dog bone shaft. I upgraded mine to ERR and RS5 years ago (with help from Alex M), and man that thing runs pretty darn smooth after all these years. I may upgrade it to a Pittman later for even better performance, but even with the stock motor, this thing could easily pull 25 cars on level track.

Here it is on speed step 1 with ERR Cruise:

I know Lionel is planning on doing something similar to improve the motor performance and gearbox with the new Heavy Mikes going forward, but we'll see if it eliminates the stutter effect...

I think the thing that gets lost in this discussion is how good is good enough.  For a small percentage of folks, the current products are obviously not "good enough".  However, it's clear that many folks like what they're getting just fine.  The question really is, how much are you willing to pay for "much better"?

Is there a "bottom line" fix for the Legacy Camelbacks? Ensure grease or heavy gear oil on the drives? I got lost in all the translation

That is a fair point, John.

I don't think I've seen this issue on the LEGACY Pennsylvania B6 0-6-0's, yet I think those also use the Mabuchi motor and those locomotives seem to creep like butter. Or maybe I haven't noticed mine long enough to notice it doing hopscotch.

I think it's when that locomotive costs half as much as say the LEGACY Mikes or I1 that tend to stutter, that's when you start to get just a wee bit frustrated.

I think Lionel needs to indicate motor type in the catalog descriptions. The K-Lionel drive in the higher priced Decs was a nasty surprise, especially after the L1 debacle. Lionel actually made those ex-MTH engines worse (not that MTH cab build Pittman drivelines anymore).

Again, get a hold of a Blunami board and see how much we've been missing all these years when it comes to dialing in performance. The motor control makes your train operate like the heavy beast it's supposed to be.

Pittman drove themselves right out of our lives, & with that, the big manufacturers were left looking for alternatives, and more so, cost cutting alternatives. Like John said, and pretty much said it best, there’s only a small minority that sees this as an issue. So we’re left to figure it out on our own. 385’s are dirt cheap, even nice ones,…..you can buy a small flat rate crammed with 385’s for the cost of one Pittman, …..The manufacturers know this too,……If only they didn’t go fixated with that crummy K-Lionel Drive, we could upgrade some of this stuff to Pittmans,……that K-Lionel Drive really puts a halt on any kind of upgrade,…….believe me, I’ve been searching for a replacement for the 385, ……

Pat

@Mikado 4501 posted:

I don't think I've seen this issue on the LEGACY Pennsylvania B6 0-6-0's, yet I think those also use the Mabuchi motor and those locomotives seem to creep like butter. Or maybe I haven't noticed mine long enough to notice it doing hopscotch.

I think it's when that locomotive costs half as much as say the LEGACY Mikes or I1 that tend to stutter, that's when you start to get just a wee bit frustrated.

The B6 0-6-0s are geared at 30:1.  Like the Genset they use the Legacy "switcher" speed table with half-steps, which helps with slow-speed performance.  I'm 99% sure that its gears are self-locking; the B6 doesn't have the new-style idler gearbox that's in the Mikados or I1 Decapods.  (Aside: back-drivable gears are generally a good thing, and there are potential advantages to an idler gearbox.  With the recent Lionels however, there seem to be issues with materials and/or tolerances.  Hopefully Lionel will figure them out!)

There isn't enough room in the B6 for a motor larger than the RS-385.  MTH's switchers, even the Premier ones use the tiny RS-365 which definitely isn't as torquey at low RPMs.  It revs higher on the top end though.  Some versions of the RailKing switcher were geared as high as 36:1 to compensate!

The Legacy B6 is a great runner.  Unfortunately the worm gear is pressed onto the motor shaft, so when the motor wears out you'll need an exact replacement.  While MTH used a smaller motor on its Premier USRA 0-6-0, the motor and flywheel are linked to the gearbox by a dogbone, which will make it MUCH easier to replace.

@Ted S posted:

The Legacy B6 is a great runner, unfortunately the worm gear is pressed onto the motor shaft, so when the motor wears out you'll need an exact replacement.

Well, you shouldn't be wearing the worm gear out before the owner wears out.   Normally it's the phosphor bronze mating worm gear that might wear out if you don't lube it.