Lionel 6-11129 C&O Kanawha Conversion

Just my opinion but, you will be in for a lot of work, once you start comparing photos of the 2700 class K-4 C&O Kanawha locomotives to that NKP Berk you have. The biggest visual differences are the sand dome being forward, and the head light mounted on the pilot deck. You should however change the road number, and also remove that "C&O Donut" logo from the tender.

You might also like to check out the MTH Premier model of the CORRECT C&O K-4 Kanawha.

The reason that the 2699 doesn't look like a typical C&O Kanawha is because it isn't one.  It is a former Pere Marquette Berkshire 1215, that was relettered and numbered after the C&O took over the Pere Marquette.  It is a pretty good model of a Pere Marquette Berk.

The actual C&O Kanawhas were numbered 2700 to 2789.  Anything that is in the 2600 number range is a former Pere Marquette locomotive.  They pretty much kept their PM looks until the end of steam.  Most kept their PM lettering and numbers except for 1201 to 1215.

The 2699 is the only C&O Berk that had the C&O Donut logo on it while in service.  So it is correct for the 2699.  

This is a model of a PM berk not a NKP Berk.  There are slight differences.  Lionel did a good job of making the correct on both their PM/C&O berks and their NKP Berks.  One big difference is the pilot, aka cow catcher.  They are very different between the C&O and PM.  Lionel did the correct pilots for both.  

From Steam Locomotive.com:

"The Pere Marquette purchased thirty-nine "Berkshire" type locomotives from the Lima Locomotive Works in three orders, Class N, road numbers 1201 through 1215 in 1937, Class N-1, road numbers 1216 through 1227 in 1941 and Class N-2, road numbers 1228 through 1239 in 1944. These locomotives had 69" diameter drivers, 26" x 34" cylinders, a 245 psi boiler pressure, they exerted 69,350 pounds of tractive effort and each weighed about 278,000 pounds".

"After the Pere Marquette was merged into the C&O some of its "Berks" began to carry the C&O name and all were to be renumbered as follows:"

PM Class N #1201 - 1215 to be C&O 2685 - 2699 
PM Class N-1 #1216 - 1227 to be C&O 2650 - 2661 
PM Class N-2 #1228 - 1239 to be C&O 2670 - 2681

Yes they all received new C&O numbers but only the 1201 though 1215 were actually repainted and had their new numbers applied to their cabs.  It was part of the sale to C&O that only locomotives that were paid off 100% from their trust were renumbered and relettered to C&O

Well then, I guess the original Poster needs to decide whether he REALLY wants a C&O K4 Kanawha, or a PM Berk.!

Or maybe he's just going to relocate the headlight and add a number board, which might lead him to do more ambitious projects in the future.  Let's encourage him!

To be clear here, the original poster DID post this on the 3-Rail SCALE Forum, and he is NOT a "new-be", so I figure he knows what he is doing. Or am I wrong?

I post here, and most of the time I have no idea what I am doing.  I too have a big Berk, and it came with parts labeled PM and C&O.  The big kicker is that it came with the All Nation tender, which is a lot closer to the Nickel Plate tender.

I also have a Greenbrier, and it got the giant C&O on the tender because I like the way it looks.  I earned the right to do that; when I started the model had a boiler made from a used sink tail pipe.

Look at it this way. Information is everything . Maybe he did not know that the engine was prototypically correct for that road number. By educating him on the correct road numbers for the K4s, now he can make an educated decision. But don't shoot him down because he dose not have the same level of knowledge on steam  or the C&O.    

Hello Everyone,

Thanks for all additional information, I know that the Kanawha's had different tenders and the sand domes were in a different location. The Main point of this modification is not to make it look 100% like a Kanawha but to make me and maybe some others feel like its a C&O Kanawha Lionel Style instead of a MTH already made Kanawha. Hope this clarifies what I am doing a little better. Road Number will be kept as 2696 because the Legacy Sound Set has Radio Dialog with 2696 announced.

Unfortunately due to my lack of skill, I am not as talented as some other people when it comes to making extensive amount of modifications, the main point of this modification is to make the front of this Berkshire look more like a C&O Kanawha considering parts for the different location of the Sand domes is not made for Lionel Berkshires. I have bought parts from Lionel's Replacement parts page from the Lionel 6-38077 Virginian Berkshire to help for this project. I also have acquired decals from Micro scale to help with this as well For All Who are curious I have more pictures attached of what progress has come as far as disassembly for the new parts.

In the photo's attached, you can see the smoke box door and Pilot have been removed which is basically all that will be modified for this project. I don't want to burn myself out with this too much since it is m first modification project

Thanks for everyone's interest.

Good start.  There is nothing wrong with trying to just capture the "flavor" of the C&O...take your time and do your best and share the results here with us.  Looking forward to seeing the progress.

NKP 765 in 1993.

Other than the domes are in the wrong positions, it was a pretty good representation of a C&O Kanawha.

Rich, I have actually stockpiled the parts to replicate "2765" some day.  Inspiration were pictures from Morning Sun Books "Trackside around Youngstown...." showing train in Lowellville and at Ohio Jct Yard.

What I need is a Lionel 6-38076 or 6-11129 or 6-30066 and time.

Some day,

Ron 

Hope the conversion goes good. However, knowing what I know now I would sell the C&O / PM berkshire and buy the MTH... it looks fantastic.

Hey Kid, you are only limited by your personal imagination and drive for perfection. Just remember to  research anything you do, and don't be afraid to try something new. You can get loads of help off this forum, thus minimizing mistakes. Rich has put together the best forum on the web, as far as I'm concerned.

What you have done to date, is very well done I might add, and be proud of the finished product.

I don't know if you have heard about "Stevenson Preservation Lines" located in Ames, Iowa    #515-292-8469   Owners name is Bob Stevenson, and has a myriad of parts from old manufacturing company's that he has been able to buy, or purchase their NO stock, as well as some kits, and now he is remanifacturing these parts as well.. Bob is a nice and helpful person, so if you haven't in the past give him a call, as well as looking up his web site stevensonpreservationlines.com...................Brandy

JDaddy that is a beautiful MTH model of the C&O 2700's. A friend of mine bought the Lionel Virginian model of the Kanawha/Berkshire, and it's a fantastic model. I just hope MTH or Lionel does the C&O K3/K3a both versions, as well as a rerun of the C&O version of the Kanawha.................................................Brandy!

J Daddy, could not agree with you more!  The placement of the sand dome in front of the steam dome is what sets the Kanawha off from the other "Berks."

When the empire set came out I poo-pooed it because of the domes placement.  At least until I checked the road number finding out that these were PM engines and only a couple were actually re-lettered.

Ron

The most significant/key part for my intended "2765" replication.

Ron

I do like Berkshires.  Have you captured a copyof that PFM book "The Berkshire and Texas Types"?

I have CNW, MoPac, SP, Lima, and C&O Berks in various stages of completion around here, and one lonely hand-lettered Nickel Plate tender.  Ther may be more operable Berkshires now than any other big mainline steam type.

Beauty is in the "Eyes of the Beholder", and I am beholding "True Beauty". I cannot imagine anybody not liking the C&O style front end on most of their locomotives. Pure Bad *ss in my opinion! I'm considering pilot mounting the headlight on my C&O 2-10-4, there's (C&O) wasn't, but should have been! Just think, back in the day, how convenient it was, to change a head light bulb!

When ever they made a 2765 out of the 765, that engine never looked better in it's whole life, and I don't care which came 1st, Sand Dome or Steam Dome! Just Opinion...............................................................Brandy!

I talked with a couple CSX road foreman when "765" pulled the "New River Excursion", and while talking with them, Dave told me that wasn't bad at all for a "Big Berk" with 69" tires,  hauling 34 loaded passenger / generator / tool cars, w/o diesel assistance, and hitting 70+mph, and also he said they had a very superb Engineer and Fireman. It's great to be classified as a high speed freight engine, but when you can get the same accolades, pulling passenger trains, the only thing better than that, would be to have your front head light mounted on the front pilot, C&O Style!...............Brandy

Matt,  good luck with your project. I have the same locomotive and it has become one of my favorites - great sounds and smoke.

Matt,

Like you I am a big C&O fan and I have the 2699 C&O/PM 2-8-4.  It looks great when you double head it with a C&O 2-10-4 T1!

It may be too late, but why not consider finding the 6-38077 Virginian 2-8-4 from the 2004 Catalog?  The Virginian essentially copied the C&O design and I am surprised Lionel never made the effort to make a  Kanawha.  I borrowed the pictures from a google search but you should get the idea.  

They are hard to find though - I have had a post for one of these in the wanted to buy forum for some time with no responses (except one scam artist). Also searching ebay and other sites is not turning up much but nevertheless you can get lucky sometimes.

Lastly why not try Lionel and see if they have spare parts for the 6-38077 Virginian.  You can look up the part list online and the parts department is now set up and working in NC. You maybe able to just order a new front end and save yourself alot of painful conversion work.

Here's the link to the parts source for the Virginian 6-30877 - Lionel has the entire pilot assembly available as a spare part: see item #63:

http://www.lionel.com/Customer...p;resultsPerPage=250

Pictures of MTH Kanawhas 2705, 2736 and SOU 2716............

A second run was done with cab # 2727.  Have not photographed it at this time.

See Attachments.....

I am liking these MTH Kanawha's the more I see them! HAHA

Anyone know of anyone willing to sell one or know a store that might have one? Mainly the #2705 Road Number? I live close to that one, and wouldn't mind owning that one!

But still gonna continue my conversion Project!

3Rd Rail has promised to build the C&O Kanawha in 2 rails and 3 rails. Add you name to the list and it may prompt Scott Mann to produce it. It has been very slow to come out.....

I too, am desperate about finding a 2 Rails MTH or the upcoming 3rd Rail Kanawha. These locomotives were so elegant.

Yves

Been working really hard on the engine everybody! Almost done, Pictures soon! Sorry I have been at school

interested to see how it turns out. 

I am suprised just how popular this steam locomotive type was.I only thought that KPR and ERIE,C&O ,PM.But over time it turns out L&N,MP,DT&I,SF,RFP,IC.And here in my home state n.c.Not to be contected to todays NS.An earlyer railroad called NS had what was called baby berkshires.765 looks pretty good as a C&O locomotive but then again she just plain looks good.

Berkshires? Just a partial list:

Boston & Maine.  Boston & Albany.  New York Central. P& LE.  Erie. NKP. C & O. Pere Marquette. Illinois Central. Santa Fe. Southern Pacific. C & NW. Toronto Hamilton& Buffalo. DT & I. W & LE. Norfolk Southern. L &N. RF & P. Virginian. TA & G. N de M.

A very popular wheel arrangement.

A very popular wheel arrangement.

Lima, Alco, Baldwin and Montreal built a total of 611 2-8-4s between 1924 and 1949.  Two were built in Canada by MLW.  The other 609 were built in the US. 

The origin of the Berkshire type locomotive was unusual for the steam era.  The first of the type was not built at the request of a railroad but rather a demonstrator built by Lima to show what their Super Power concepts could do for railroads.  The original Lima Berks were essentially a super Mikado with 63 inch drivers and a huge 100 square foot fire box.  Lima did well with their early design and sold over 150 such locomotives to the B&A, B&M, IC and MP between 1926 and 1930.

The 2-8-4 grew into something much more than a super mike with the development of the Erie Berkshires in the late 1920s.  With 70 inch drivers they were intended to be fast freight locomotives in a way that the original Lima design could not match.  Alco, Lima and Baldwin built 105 of them for the Erie and they handled some of the hottest freight in the northeast until diesels came on the scene in the 1940s.

The AMC Berkshire grew out of the Erie design and became the most popular of the 2-8-4s with construction spanning 1934 to 1949.  They were the locomotives that defined NKP fast freight and served with distinction on the PM, C&O and other lines.  The Nickel Plate tested A-B-A F7s in the late 1940s and decided to order more Berkshires from Lima with the NKP 779 becoming the last steam locomotive delivered form a commercial builder to an American class 1 railroad.

Other Berkshire designs were built in smaller numbers.  But most of the 611 Berks were built to one of the three basic designs, the original Lima type, the Erie design or the AMC.

We have diecast models in O scale of the Lima and AMC designs with, as this thread shows, significant prototype specific detail differences available.  There are Erie Berks in brass on the way from Sunset and MTH produced models of the unique P&LE Berks.  With all the variations available perhaps an O Scale Locomotive Guide to Berkshires is in order.

Is anyone interested?

Yep. I can help with CNW, MoPac, SP, and maybe Lima, if I ever get the proper tender and trailing truck.

Nope - I beg to differ.  The Nickel Plate Road Berkshire is most handsome with its headlight smack in the middle of the boiler front where NKP folks placed it.  High Speed Service utilizing 2-8-4s to their greatest advantage running on the point of hotshot merchandise trains - that's the Nickel Plate Road at its glorious best!  Only thing better would be a bright red and white caboose at the end of a long string of reefers lugged by a 700...   

Any word on this? Im anxious to see the results

Major cutting into a zinc steam locomotive is something that I have done, will do again, and that is a very unpleasant process, as in relocating or removing domes, then fixing the mess. The NKP 2-8-4 is not a C&O Kanawha and never will be. Lionel should have done better. A change to a zinc steamer that is relatively non-destructive but that 

achieves or approximates the desired end makes sense. In this case it would be advisable

to buy the MTH model (pretty accurate?) and sell the Lionel. Put ERR electronics in it

if you want to run TMCC.

(MTH pulled the same sort of silliness years ago with their Premier L&N-lettered NKP 2-8-4. (The RK version was more forgivable.) No resemblance. I want an L&N Berk very

badly, but I refused to pay $1000 for a paint job.)

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Per the Berkshire list above, just as additional info: the NYC proper did not have any

2-8-4's, but its subsidiaries P&LE and B&A did. The TA&G 2-8-4's (2) were former B&A

2-8-4's, and outlived their B&A brethren.

The Mexican National (NdeM) locos were former Norfolk Southern (the old one, not the current one) units, and were owned, in Mexico, by ASARCO (American Smelting and Refining Co.) for a while - and lettered ASARCO. They were the smallest 2-8-4's in

N. America.