Lionel 6-82458 Amtrak Cabbage Disappointment...Dave Olson of Lionel responds...

Looks like some rust on the uncoupler bar in the righthand photo as well?  

It seems like folks that preorderLionel stuff are the beta testors and final product inspectors.

I'm done with preorders of Lionel for good.  I don't care what anyone says, there is no other manufacturer with even remotely the same number of complaints about anything and everything. Not to mention, the complaints have escalated over the last few years.

Poor product quality, as well as electronics and detail/features switcheroos have stifled my interest in any new offerings from Lionel. Too much," meh....thats good enough" going on over there.

I really need to try DCS on my buss wired layout, MTH looks better everyday. 

Totally unacceptable "out of the box" condition. 

I may have seen a less obvious version of that on some rolling stock couplers recently, now I will need to go check.

This is probably the point where some wise guy will tell you just to weather it.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:

This is probably the point where some wise guy will tell you just to weather it.

I think that ship has sailed, it's well weathered right now.  Since I see the zinc actually flaking, I suspect it won't be long before it weathers away.

Jack, didn't we have that conversation at the March Meet? I suspect that had something to do with it. John, are the ERR couplersca directvreplacement for the legacy couplers?

Matt, the couplers on this are unique mounts, they'll have to come from Lionel.

Send it back to Lionel and ask for a replacement or get it fixed.

I was just reading the thread where Willygee was inquiring about getting the digital meter made for use with our volt and amp ranges. With all the questioning of how to word a couple of simple changes to the meter they already had, I was wondering how anyone ever got any trains made at all? Maybe they just get close?

Ah, now I see your rub abit better. It's eirher talk Lionel into a free part or send it in. It's easier and less work for me to do the former but either way you only want to crack her open once so now it's wait for the part or wait for her return and neither option makes her road worthy today. That's super annoying

I also had to sand the sides of the hatch for the switches, it was so tight that I couldn't get it out.  I pulled one of the lift rings out and had to glue it back in, finally got the hatch open.  It was TIGHT!  I sanded the sides and touched up the black, now I can actually open it to get to the switches and battery.  Never a dull moment...

I also didn't mention that one of the air hoses was also broken off and floating around in the box, that seemed minor after seeing the coupler rotting away!

Yeah, add it to the long list of projects. Even sending it back is a bit of a project. My last one was the 3rd Rail GS-4. After getting her out of the box and spending about an hour straightening all the bent detail she looked good. Got her on the layout and the chuff switches click so loud you can hear em over the sounds and the further away it gets the better you can hear the click and the smoke unit doesn't work at all. After getting over my initial disappointment and sending Scott a good ribbing email, I got my list of upgrades and added to the project list. 

Theres a certain level of fixing I've come to accept when opening up my new stuff and found it's the simplest little thing that gets me the most. The proverbial straw.  

GRJ: So sorry to hear about the issue with your new Amtrak Cabbage unit.

Mine is scheduled to arrive on Wednesday and I will inspect it very carefully!

The anticipation of my new arrival is now somewhat tainted by skepticism.

Best of luck with the repair/replacement.

Stan

I have to be very careful these days  posting anything on the OGR Forum about quality control issues concerning Lionel. I am still getting crude remarks directed toward me, personal attacks in posts, and snide remarks at gatherings because I posted six months ago that the Vision Line GG-1 locomotive I opened had crude parting lines on the cab. There was actually a poster who claimed the lines were prototypical and lambasted me for lambasting. I had the gall to say that a locomotIve with an MSRP of $1500 should  arrive with as nice a body as its predecessor JLC GG-1 from years ago.

I have purposely avoided posting about additional Lionel quality issues because the aggravation generated by the "I only want to hear good news" folks made posting comments quite unsavory. 

I do believe, fervently, that forums such as this are very helpful to us as consumers when we post about quality issues because it puts great pressure on manufacturers to improve quality. It also serves to warn potential buyers of trouble ahead. I do take that responsibility to my fellow train enthusiasts seriously. To be honest, I believe it is more than too late to convince people who criticize me for posting quality issues that I do have good intentions. "Whiner," is what I hear from them when my name is associated with a post about quality.

Let me relate some facts about my recent purchase. Yes, I actually bought another Vision Line GG-1 in Amtrak livery. Why did I do that after complaining about the parting lines on my prior Vision GG-1 purchase? A valid question. I expect to be taken to task as a hypocrite by some people regardless of my reasons so there is likely nothing I can do to prevent that. If I want to relate issues with my recent purchase, I will have to expose myself to more ridicule.

I wanted an Amtrak livery GG-1 to pull my Atlas O Horizon cars, I sold my Weaver Amtrak GG-1 because it did not have great command control and sound, and I decided that the trade off of parting lines was the price I have to pay for a Legacy GG-1 locomotive.

I ordered an Amtrak GG-1 Vision Line from a reputable dealer and it arrived with terrible parting lines, worse than my PC GG-1. I grimaced and checked the body of the loco. There was a large piece of thick clear plastic wedged between the frame and the body about 2" long and 1/4" wide sticking out below the body of the loco. Much too thick to cut and too deeply stuck to remove, I planned to deal with it after I checked the loco functions. (Photos to follow). See also the brake hose in the box. I started up the loco and after moving three or four feet, it seized, shorted and died. Shocking to say the least. I was angry, but the dealer was very helpful and immediately agreed to send me a fresh loco with a return shipping label in the box. It was an ugly start, but I was relieved the dealer was so helpful. Not all dealers would do that. Some dealers would tell me to send it back to Lionel. I immediately regretted my decision to buy another Vision GG-1 and blamed myself for being naive and train addicted.

Two days later the second GG-1 arrived. It never made it to the track. The nose paint on the blue stripe was smeared across the face and scratched so badly and prominently, no one would consider keeping such a horror. I immediately called the dealer and sent photos of the loco. Obviously, with such a hideous paint job, anyone could have seen the problems during the painting/manufacturing process, but it got shipped anyway. Feeling badly about the dealer having to ship a second loco, I offered to pay shipping back to the dealer. That was $29. 

My third Amtrak GG-1 from the dealer arrives Tuesday. That one, most assuredly, will be the last. I will post photos of these locos as soon as I can. Fortunately, the dealer has stood by me throughout the process.

I wrote a stinging letter to Lionel explaining that I could no longer justify buying their products no matter how addicted I was to trains. I have placed a large order with Scott Mann and Golden Gate Depot. As I previously indicated, I will post photos of all of these experiences. Folks who want to lay it on thick and call me a "whiner," once again will have another opportunity.

Elliot, that many issues on items of that level of price and supposedly quality is wildly unacceptable. I too have moved the bulk of my purchases I've the Scott Mann and company as the cost gap closes with every catalog and the support I've received has been nothing short of phenomenal. I've had my share of quality issues but nothing like youve experienced. 

I own 2 Lionel locomotives; both are excellent, but both are from a 2014 catalog. I hope what I'm reading hear isn't an indication of what I can expect when I receive my Mogul.

Appalling.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I opened the box for my new Lionel 6-82458 Amtrak Cabbage NPCU with high expectations, and I was greeted with something less than optimal results!

As soon as it was out, I spotted the front coupler that seemed a little off.  It's rotting away, right from the factory!  There are already flakes of zinc, and the paint is peeling off the coupler in sheets!  No surprise that the coupler was balky, though it did finally function.  Has anyone else spotted anything like this?

After further examination, I also note that one of the equipment boxes that are obviously bolted to the frame from the inside is loose.  I mean REALLY loose, it hangs down on the screw almost a quarter of an inch!

What ever happened to quality control?  How does something like this get out the door?

John, I am experiencing similar issues with mine. The couplers are doing the same thing, although not to the extent of yours. The electrical boxes on mine were loose as well, on both units. I'm having the same problem with the battery covers. I gave up on one of them! How did you get yours off? On the one that's giving me trouble I have tried to grip it using the fans (this worked on the first one), but they ended up popping out so now I'm really stuck (I can however put them back in since they're press fit). Help!

-Steven

Very disappointing level of quality from Lionel these days. Certain their leadership has to know this is wrecking the brand name and image.

Where is Mr. Dave Olson to give some input?

Glad I stuck with MTh  as my engine source.

Keep those cars and buildings coming Menards!!

For the record, once again as Sgt. Friday said, "Only the facts," I sent e-mails to Howard Hitchcock, Dean Brasseur and Dave Olsen complete with all the photos. I did hear back from Dean who promised me a refund of $29 for my shipping back to the dealer. 

With regard to product quality and the current crop of dreadful pieces, I have heard nary a word from the boss.

MattR posted:

Where is Mr. Dave Olson to give some input?

Probably something non-train related since it's the weekend and he's off the clock at Lionel? 

Hot Water posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

 

What ever happened to quality control?  How does something like this get out the door?

Just wondering if such "issues" within Lionel was a major contributing factor on why Mike R resigned?

Did Lionel have to change plants to make its stuff because of the "Musical Chairs" caused by the company which controls Bachmann?  Still, this is bad. 

PRRMiddleDivision posted:

John, I am experiencing similar issues with mine. The couplers are doing the same thing, although not to the extent of yours. The electrical boxes on mine were loose as well, on both units. I'm having the same problem with the battery covers. I gave up on one of them! How did you get yours off? On the one that's giving me trouble I have tried to grip it using the fans (this worked on the first one), but they ended up popping out so now I'm really stuck (I can however put them back in since they're press fit). Help!

 

I sanded the sides of the covers just enough so they drop in and then touched up the sides where I sanded the black off.  The cover works fine now, I'm guessing I may have to do the same thing when I get the powered unit that's due in next week.  The odd thing is the rear coupler looks fine, but the front one is literally rotting away!

I haven't seen anything like this with previous Lionel purchases, I'm also wondering if they changed suppliers and these guys do crap work?

I expect my Amtrak diesel to arrive here Tuesday. If it is as bad as some of these I will send it back, might well be my last preorder. The smoke loader and the sound boxcars were poor, I have to wonder what Lionel is thinking.

Dominic Mazoch posted:

Did Lionel have to change plants to make its stuff because of the "Musical Chairs" caused by the company which controls Bachmann?  Still, this is bad. 

That was a number of years ago now.  Last I heard from a former employee, Lionel had 5 factories in China.  That was two years back.

Regardless, quality control should be a concern to all manufacturers.  The issue is always, is this an isolated incident or is it a trend and how does the manufacturer respond? 

It's always disappointing to get something broken or incorrect out of the box.  Sorry this happened. No manufacturers intend to make a bad product.  I am curious as to why there have been defects on a number of recently released products this year from this manufacturer assuming this forum is any indicator of the broader market for O scale trains.    

audi posted:

I expect my Amtrak diesel to arrive here Tuesday. If it is as bad as some of these I will send it back, might well be my last preorder. The smoke loader and the sound boxcars were poor, I have to wonder what Lionel is thinking.

YES, send it back. I am dumbfounded by the number of people that accept mediocre, if not worse product. I sent my Lionel Legacy 0-8-0 back because it was, well, Legacy light. I never heard another person that did the same and then there is another forum member asking how to slow down his similar equipped locomotive. Why not just send it back?

I agree with the above responses, send it back and get a replacement. It's discouraging to see defects like this, especially deteriorating coupler issues...

I too am baffled by how things like this leave the factories unnoticed. It's obviously a hit-and-miss, as others have posted videos and photos of their Cabbages/F40's and they're fine. My F40 arrived a few days ago and it was flawless. So you'd think they'd notice if something wasn't right??

The program switch/battery cover was my only gripe about the engine. VERY, VERY hard to get off. Ended up peeling most the paint off all four lift rings trying to get it off (no big deal to me, they just look white now lol). Finally realized that it comes off from the back, you grip the rear of the engine and pull up on the two back lift rings. Hopefully, as has been the case with my other TMCC/Legacy diesels, that will be the one and only time I open it.

Well, at least they look nice...

BTW, "my" prior post in this thread was actually from my son Steven. Ours showed up yesterday and he's been running them all weekend. I came across this thread and had him check our units for the problems mentioned by Gunrunnerjohn. You can see his comments above. Yes, I agree, it's really rotten when you receive a brand new $500 engine and it's less than perfect. I can't tell you how many times this has happened to us, and from multiple manufacturers over the years.

I'm seriously considering just shipping it back.

John, with all that going on I'd prolly probably send it back too.

_{Edited by the Webmaster.}

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm seriously considering just shipping it back.

No question in my mind......send it back.....zinc rot is totally unacceptable!

Peter

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm seriously considering just shipping it back.

I would John.

All manufacturers need to take a lesson from Jason Shron of Rapido Trains.  He has very tight control and checks on his overseas production and speaks Madarin Chinese fluently.  He has a very good rapport with his manufacturer and respect of his workforce.  I can assure you that Rapido would not allow this type of problem make it out of the factory let alone out of the Rapido shipping department and to a customer.  Rapido is TOP NOTCH and they also will fix any of their products for you even if you simply break it yourself. MTH, LIONEL, ATLAS, BACHMANN, All need to learn from this.  A $1600 GG1 should NOT arrive with paint this screwed up!  A $600 F40PH should NOT arrive with zinc pest and broken parts.  $1500 worth of Turbotrains should not arrive requiring multiple repairs and adjustments, numerous times and still the product remains junk.  

All manufacturers... learn from Rapido! And improve.  It will only help your bottom line and your customers satisfaction and continued spending.

I think I'll call tomorrow and away it goes.  Bummer, I really wanted to see this with my cars and the F40PH pulling the lot.  Oh... Well...

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I think I'll call tomorrow and away it goes.  Bummer, I really wanted to see this with my cars and the F40PH pulling the lot.  Oh... Well...

John, I agree with your decision to send it back.  As long as we keep accepting these mistakes there will be less incentive for the manufacturers to get it right.  This zinc problem has been around for years.  The time for them to clean up their act has IMHO long passed.

Hopefully they take it back with the fixes (sanding) you had done for the other problem... 

I doubt they will give you any problems (especially since you are an authorized service person), but technically for general consumers they could claim we voided the warranty by doing anything to it.

I  say this not to bring it to your attention, but to others who may not realize this double edged sword of fixing problems on new stuff ourselves.... it's fine if nothing else becomes a bigger deal after we do whatever the minor repair is.

Of course if the stuff was right when removed from the box, this would not be something we would have to even think about.

-Dave

Ah ! ... corporate America at its finest ... its all about the money of course .... why pay for quality control, let the customer do it , if they find something wrong, no problem send them another one to check out. O its a real pain in the butt for your loyal customer, O well.  : )

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm seriously considering just shipping it back.

Probably a good good idea - if they get enough of them back and/or have to make a bunch of refunds - they will get their act together.   It is about time to hit'em where it hurts - it is expensive for companies to deal with "returned product and refunds.  ALWAYS CHEAPER TO DO IT RIGHT THE first time!~