Lionel 6-82458 Amtrak Cabbage Disappointment...Dave Olson of Lionel responds...

Scrapiron Scher posted:

For the record, once again as Sgt. Friday said, "Only the facts," I sent e-mails to Howard Hitchcock, Dean Brasseur and Dave Olsen complete with all the photos. I did hear back from Dean who promised me a refund of $29 for my shipping back to the dealer. 

With regard to product quality and the current crop of dreadful pieces, I have heard nary a word from the boss.

Man my last repair I sent back I sent in a letter explaining my displeasment from 2016 with Lionel and who I could talk to about QC (never head back from my letter about it).

10 2016 preorders and arrivals all had serious problems not cosmetic fixable stuff, they were all problems found within minutes of taking it fresh out of the box. Some examples consisted of shell damage, engine attenna bent 45 degrees, truck metal pieces broken or damaged, rolling stock trucks not assembled, rolling stock trucks with rust and bent uncoupling mechanisms and more.

There's cosmetic stuff like the metal large  hose thing from my BNSF ES44ac that was floating around in the styrofoam, but I don't want to get into this because cosmetic stuff is some what easily fixable with glue to some extent. There were many metal details that I learned to expect that will not be attached to the item on arrival.

To sum up my story. Lots of broken stuff, made RMAs had to pay for shipping back to them as it just arrived within 24hrs  and almost negates my preorder savings. I expressed to Lions how new the unit is and this is not the first time seeing these types of incidents, but every time I'd paid my $25-$30 shipping it back across the country after I paid like the same thing to get it here in the first place.

I also asked how I can get my local hobby shop into a service station to help avoid this long journey coming from China -> Lionel NC -> Cont. U.S. Hobby shop -> Me -> Lionel Repair -> Me again, most of the time fixed. Never heard back from anyone yet.

I swear I feel like such a victim and have the shortest stick in the draw and I know others are in the same boat. All I want from Lionel is to acknowledge me and to do some PR on their QC.

Thanks for reading my rant. To the OP and everyone else sorry to read about those issues you experienced. 

Edit: Dave O. if your reading this, if they send you to China for work. Have them book a layover in my hood it's half way to between China and the CA and it's comfortable year around. I'll take you to lunch and have a chat. Your humor is right up my alley. With that being said if you do come, come hungry.

My Vision GG1 came with the hoses (both the skinny one and the square fat hose) on the rear pilot missing. I found the skinny one in the box, but the other fatter hose looking assembly was not in the box. So it was sent from the factory that way. I emailed Lionel and asked for a rear pilot with hoses intact, and was denied. They sent me a UPS label and RA number. Since the engine worked in almost all other respects (the pivot screws on the pantagraphs were loose), I felt that I might as well suffer the loss of the hoses rather than risk shipping the engine back and forth. I would still like the hoses, and am waiting to see if parts fiche will be up and running on this Vision GG1. I have had dozens of issues with new out of the box lionel engines, and fixed 90 % of these myself, sometimes with parts from Lionel which they sent when I informed them of the issues. I appreciate that.

Still want the hoses though!

BOY OH BOY.......Those 21" UP excursion passenger cars better be perfect. After waiting all this time!

It's in the box to go to Lionel, I hope for the best.

Audi,

If Lionel and/or their manufacturer stuck to the original design that Ernie used on the smoke loader, they would never had any issues but when they switched parts to save nickels, it cost them plenty in repairs and/or replacements. I firsthand know what the initial product looked like inside and outside being a good friend of Ernie. Someone on their end cheapened up a few parts to save for a 6 pack of beer.

As for Eliot, he has this black cloud that stays over the Scrapiron RR!

I appreciate Dave Olsen getting on the Forum and responding with looks like reasonable answers.  I read the forum every day, but don't have much time to actually type a response.  My view is that if we keep focused on one engine at a time when there is an issue with an engine, it may be more useful than throwing everything but the kitchen sink with ongoing problems with multiple other engines. I mean no disrespect to anyone, but it just reads to me like piling on. It also increases the chance that the thread gets deleted, which is a shame because we loose a reference for future reference.

The above comments about folks spending big bucks on new trains is why I stopped buying ANYTHING new. I'd rather buy it on the secondary market as the 1st person is the beta tester. At least I know it will run out of the box and most sellers will let you know of a cosmetic detail issue.

Ted Bertiger posted:

The above comments about folks spending big bucks on new trains is why I stopped buying ANYTHING new. I'd rather buy it on the secondary market as the 1st person is the beta tester. At least I know it will run out of the box and most sellers will let you know of a cosmetic detail issue.

Unfortunately the ever increasing challenge with that buying process is that it means the difference between new tooling and no no tooling.  You already have seen this with one of the main manufacturers where there has been no new tooling several years.  That is unfortunate.  We loose sight of the fact that if we want to see something built, we need to invest in the initial purchase. 

BTO is a good model because the market dictates what gets built and what doesn't while protecting the manufacturer from over building and having to slash the price to deplete excess inventory at a loss.  For those that care about value, BTO also helps maintain the value for those that occasionally come up for resale.

Yes there is occasional risk, but a vast majority of customers get good product from all the manufacturers.  Having a representative from the company speak to the fact that this particular product's defects were not endemic to the entire run speaks volumes. 

While I certainly have my brand loyalties firmly affixed to my chest, I wouldn't want to see any of the current O manufacturer's exit the market because people will not invest in their new product.  That is how we get better quality models for those of us who are interested in scale accuracy and fidelity to the prototype.

"That is how we get better quality models for those of us who are interested in scale accuracy and fidelity to the prototype."

Not going to happen. The O gauge market has too many:  "It's good enough" types.  And if you point something out - they will always respond by pointing out the center rail

GG1, I have no problem with your comments on BTO and the resulting economic - production planning and the benefits from it. As person involved in manufacturing high end rugged laptops we were always BTO and made a few extra. The difference here is QA, my defect rates and out of the box failures were /are less than .00001, have a 3 year warranty (subject to abuse levels) and return shipping both ways. Our product quality allows us to offer this. Prices are almost the same as the Allegheny or BB.

When you know what your going to make and when product planning, design and development are easier to manage -hence BTO and improved Quality and reduced production problems and better pricing and performance.

In Lionel's case, something is not adding up and production and quality have suffered. That a major problem and failure to fix it will continue to haunt them in the form of bad press which typically results in less than spectacular financial results and damage to the brand name.

Ex. GG1's, the new Allegheny, the Amtrak Gunrunner is stoked about.

They, like all manufacturers need quality products in the market place or social media will kill them sooner rather than later. The risk is to great and the market continues to contract.

 To elaborate on what Ted B. said, I learned with the TMCC crane car that it is best to wait till the  2nd round of a new product comes out, especially one with new technology being introduced.  I bought the crane car as soon as I saw it in the catalog, boom car too.  It was the PRR and the first run.  Had problems with it for years until Lionel finally got their service dept squared away and told me to send it in.  They fixed it for $70 plus parts and it worked great finally.  I thought that by buying the first run, I was buying a new product that hadn't had the bugs worked out yet.  With the BTO policy, where a run of engines is a one time deal, maybe it's not possible to wait for a reissue of the engine.  It is going to be there, first try with new technology, and the bugs will be there too. 

And now we are starting to reap what we sow, i.e. "we don't need no stinkin brick and mortar hobby shops, when we can (pre)order on line from Fly By Night train company and save 750 bucks.  Course when it goes bad or out of box failure, who you gonna call?"

I have MTH stuff exclusively on my layout. MTH has QC problems too. I just fix them and run them. The problems with Lionel and MTH products are they are made in China where they are more driven by profit than most companies in America. This extends to the populous as well. Quality Control is not part of  Chinese living. Chinese prefer not to buy Chinese made cars because they are so unreliable. They have whole malls where they sell knock-off items even though there are signs all over the buildings that say such sales are illegal in China. When the government officials arrive with previous notice the mall management just closes the mall for the day and returns to normal operations when the officials leave. There is a lot of graft when it comes to government employees. Grease the hands of public officials with money and they look the other way or make the delays go away. Their society is nothing like ours. This all leads to not caring about the quality of Chinese products by the workers and their management. 

You only have to watch YouTube channels by foreigners to realize that all Chinese products are suspect because of their culture. Chinese people seem nice enough but it is their culture that makes Quality Control no priority to them.

The above is my opinion. I have no hatred of China or its people. I just want products from China that I might buy to have good quality. I want my monies worth!

The solution that might work and I believe Apple uses on Chinese made products is American Quality Control done in China. That way if it is not right it does not ship. Train dealers in America should not be burden with being the Quality Control cleanup for Chinese train products.

I often wonder what it would cost if train stuffs were American made. There would huge savings in shipping, American oversight in a foreign country, and the service costs due to poor Quality Control. That assumes that American workers could do better at Quality Control or even have the skills to make these complicated train products (??). Tariffs on Chinese products might force production back to America (??). But that at this point seems not likely.

LDBennett

With troop movements along the China/North Korea border, sabre rattling from North Korea, and our fleet playing "war games" in the Sea of Japan, Chinese QC may become a moot point. ��

The difference here is QA, my defect rates and out of the box failures were /are less than .00001, have a 3 year warranty (subject to abuse levels) and return shipping both ways. Our product quality allows us to offer this.

Your customers demand and pay for this level of quality and service.
For some reason, toy train customers generally do not. The question is why?

Raise a quality issue here, and be prepared for company loyalists to attack.