Lionel 671 Motor Repair Parts?

I am fairly certain those ball bearings were pressed in between two washers originally, so that may very well have been your problem. I believe the bearing is available at just about any parts dealer, such as the Train Tender (ttender.com).

 

Hope this helps,

 

J White

 

It looks like the 671 had loose bearing between thrust washers. The 681 had the thrust bearing with the balls caged. 

I would try to find all the bearings you can(large magnet) then divide them by half.

The 681 shows 5 caged bearings on each size so you should at least find 10 or more of them for your 671.

Get some white paper towels for your work area and study the diagram for placemet of the washers. Using the old one will work no need to replace.

Let us know what happens.

 

franktrain 

I believe there were 5 on each bearing set. Jeff at The Train Tender had them. When assembling, place one washer into place then put a gob of grease on the washer. Then place the bearing balls into the grease with a tweezers. Then place the other washer into place. The grease holds everything in place while you work making it way to assemble those tiny pieces.

Gandy

Thank you for correcting my misinformation. I will edit my post when I get to a computer,this ipad just isn't cutting it.

 

J White

 

The loose bearing balls are part number 671M-21.

According to the service manual, play should not exceed .010 inch.

The front thrust washer is 671M-23 (worm end)

The rear thrust washer is 671M-19

The manual shows one thrust washer on each side of the ball bearings (total four washers).

The manual does not indicate how many ball bearings are use.
I would put in as many as will fit.

I am fairly certain that the ball bearings are 1/16 inch.

A couple of years ago I purchased what is probably a lifetime supply:

100 for $5.00 postpaid.

 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/100-1-16-Chrome-steel-bearing-balls-/380529448778?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item589952974a

 

 

Some very early turbines use 671M-10 thrust washers on both ends of the armature.

 

i cleaned and lubed my 671 approx 3 months ago and gandy is correct--there were 5 ball bearings in each set --install per his instructions and a-ok 

The 1946 turbine had 11 ball bearings in each side.  If you look at an original Lionel parts manual, you can actually count the ball bearings.  That is the number that I replace in all 1946 turbines that come into my shop.  I have never had anyone come back with any problems.

Bob

I have those available at .25 each.

Chuck

www.only3rail.com

Interesting info. Is this a Lionel "Atomic" motor, and was it used only in the early turbine and Berkshire locos? A friend recently bought a 671, not the atomic motor version, and it mainly just needed E-unit repair. I wondered if other Lionel motors have the non-caged ball bearings. It would be something to watch out for during disassembly ...

I find this thread very confusing. Hopefully I am not being too priggish.

 

I have a 1946 turbine motor in front of me (spur gear), a Lionel service manual, and 1947ish turbine motor with the loose ball bearings. (The manual describes a variation on the motor, not certain which one this is)

 

This 1946 spur gear drive turbine motor does not have any ball bearing at all. The service manual does not list or show loose ball bearings for the 1946 version of the 671 (2020) Turbine, or for the 1946 version of the 726 Berkshire.

 

The worm drive turbine motor with the loose ball bearings has twelve bearings in the race closest to the worm. They fit comfortably, but that doesn't mean that Lionel used that many. I probably filled the race when I replaced the lost originals. (I did the same thing as the original poster).

 

The brass bearing assembly with five trapped ball bearings carries part number 681-121, which leads me to believe that it was first used in the 681 locomotive.

 

PRR6200s2 mentioned a Lionel service manual page with an entry where the ball bearings can be counted.

So far I have not been able to find it. Perhaps the detail was shown on the 8-47 version of the page shown below.

If possible, I'd appreciate having a page number.

 

Here is a page showing how the motor goes together:

 

 

 

 

quote:

Interesting info. Is this a Lionel "Atomic" motor, and was it used only in the early turbine and Berkshire locos? 

 

While it carried a different part number, the 2332 GG-1 used almost the same motor, including the loose ball bearings. I think the brushplate carries the "Atomic" marking.

 

Here is the page on the 2332 GG1 motor. It includes a description of how it differs from the 671 (also used on 726) motor.

You guys are great - thanks for all the help!

 

Order to the Train Tender is going in the mail tonight.  They had a number of other parts that I decided to pick up since this thing is apart, including new brushes and springs, a new proper screw for the front truck, the thrust washers needed to shim the axial play out of the armature, etc.  I had never heard of them before, and will likely be going back when I finally decide to get some of my old accessories working again.  Thanks for the suggestion TheGandyDancer.

I am starting to suspect that the reason for the rough running and high current draw was excess axial play in the armature, which was causing the armature to shift which bound the gears.  As I remember it ran fine in reverse, which would make sense.  I will post the final findings after the parts get in.

Thanks again for the help everyone! 

FWIW, the 1949 version of the 622/6220 had the loose ball bearings -- same part number as the 671 (671-23), and the thrust washers also had the same number. The service manual says nine balls. The 1950 622 had a number of changes, including the switch to the 681-121 ball bearing set.

Martin

Parts came in yesterday.  I was surprised to find a $10 bill in the package - I paid for the higher shipping to guarantee it would make it by Christmas, and I also missed part number 671M-21Q which is a package of 25 ball bearings at a lower total cost - the combination of which was a $9.50 difference.  I couldn't be happier with the parts, or their honesty.  I will be a return customer of the Train Tender.

 

The parts arrived in individual pockets of a heat-sealed plastic sleeve.  All looked to be new stock.  Sadly, the shoulder screws I ordered for the front and rear trucks are not the right part - I was looking for ones with a shorter shoulder.  Also, the washers shown for the back of the motor weren't right for my motor.  It looked like the originals were different in color, which matches the repair manual I found - but the new rear washers that I thought were the same part were certainly too large in diameter.  That's OK, I ended up not needing them.  The brushes, brush springs, forward thrust washers, ball bearings, and spring clips were all spot-on matches to the originals.

 

 

This is one of the original balls that I was able to recover.  It measured at about 0.0622", which was just a hair smaller than the one new ball I measured.  I had 11 old balls, so I used all of them on one side and all new ones on the other - although I doubt it will really make any difference.

 

 

New brushes vs. old.  The old were still in relatively good shape I think, but figured I would replace them since I had everything apart anyway.

 

 

I followed  TheGandyDancer's suggestion on putting grease in the bearings first to hold the balls during assembly.  I did the rear first, using a little grease to hold the rear washer up against the rotor while I inserted the balls.  I used 11 per end per prr6200s2's suggestion and they appear to fit well.  I used some slightly magnetized tweezers to get the balls into the grease a couple at a time, then a small wooden stick to push them into place.  Once the rear was done I put the new brushes and springs in place and attached the rear brush plate to the motor.

 

At this point I played around with the motor a little without the front bearing in place.  I am convinced that the problems I had last year were related to the axial play, which I believe to be much greater than the 0.010" mentioned in the repair manual.  After putting the balls in the front bearing just as I had done with the rear, I added two thrust washers on top of the original.  I just eye-balled this to be the right amount based on where the surface of the last washer appeared to be in relation to the groove in the motor shaft for the spring clip.  After re-assembly this looked to have worked very well - I had next to no axial play in the motor and it would spin freely even when pushed axially in either direction.  Before, if you pushed the shaft back towards the brushes and tried to spin it, it would bind up.

Everything is re-assembled and has been tested with great success.  I don't remember this unit running this smoothly since I've owned it, which means I'm about 12 years late on repairing the motor.  Regardless, with all of your help I now have an old friend back under the Christmas tree - thank you all again, and Merry Christmas!

 

Brakeman,

 

Thank you for the photos and details on how you re-assembled the motor.  Glad to hear it was a success!  I have a 2020, which will probably need to be relubed and my repair skills are marginal at best!   Every little bit of advice--along with pictures--helps.  Merry Christmas!

 

Rick, Mpls.

Can't beat Train Tender for parts. If he doesn't have what you want, Lionel probably hasn't made them yet. Also, the most honest guy you'll ever deal with.

I will second that.

Can anybody point me to an exploded diagram of a 681 so I can be sure I'm ordering the right parts? 

 

And apparently there are two varieties of pivot screws for the front and rear trucks?  How can I tell which one I need when one is missing?  Are they always both the same?

Lets see if this works? Greenburg's manual references the 681 to 671 diagram. I hope you can read this. Yes it does reference two different truck studs. Front truck is 671-94 and the rear stud is 671-81 and the truck pivot screws are the same 671-185. The front stud is T shaped and the rear has a round top.

franktrain 

 

This thread has been a huge help with what I'm working on. I have a Lionel 726 with the ATOMIC motor that was "is" my older brothers. These have been in an attic for longer than I'd care to admit. I've fixed the 2018 Scout engine and am now on the 726. When I took the motor out I saw the little bearings stuck in the grease and began looking into the problem.  I also was not sure how many went in each end and have tried from 7 to 11 but the thing is still loud and when the shell is on it acts like a speaker for the grinding and vibrating noise. I was working on it this evening when I came across this thread. It seems the issue with mine is the "rear armature bearing" furthest from the worm gear. I think the number is 671M-20 from the pictures posted earlier in this thread. What I was wondering is if anyone knew how to get this part out. I would call it a bushing or a race like in a car wheel bearing setup. It's pressed into the housing and the little balls sit in it with the thrust washer keeping them in place. I need to replace it because it got damaged long ago by being run dry. It's pretty chewed up in there and it's my only guess as to the loud noise. Any help is greatly appreciated, thanks!

P.S. I've found the part online but it simple looks like a bushing with no recessed area to hold the tiny ball bearings...Is there no end to this madness?

Originally Posted by Beamascope

I've found the part online but it simple looks like a bushing with no recessed area to hold the tiny ball bearings...

Apparently not all versions have the ball bearings.

The reason the parts didnt fit is because you do not have a 1946 locomotive. From the side profile it appears to have nickle plated drivers on numbers 1 2 3 and 4 which makes it a 1947.

It also has an e unit lever and angled motor which makes it a 47-49 candidate. The 46 has no e unit levrr and a larger horizontal mounted "atomic" motor

Here is the 1946 version of the 671. Greenberg does not show this 1946 motor under 671 but you can see the 1946 version by looking up the 1946 726 loco. No ball bearing but sleeves.

franktrain