Lionel 671 Turbine - Metal steps under Engineer's Cab

I have heard Super Glue is the easier solution here. Drilling and tapping would be the most difficult approach unless you possess those skills and tools.

I recommend J B Weld metal filled epoxy available at Walmart.  I have had little success using super glue for metal but J B Weld works best every time. 

I just used about 1/2 of the J B Welds tubes to glue a broken DeWalt 12 inch miter saw handle that was plastic.  I glued it back together using thick pipe strapping for reinforcing as it had to be very strong.

Charlie

J B Weld sounds like a good product for your application.

Fisherdoc.....drill and tap for a 4-40 screw....no big deal,I just did it....if not JB weld should do it....good luck...joe

The 1946 is a great engine. If you got a good price this is not a deal breaker. I would send to it to a repair person and let them reattach it right. I did that with mine and it was not a big deal. If there is a problem with the steps replacements are available. i am still looking for the 1946 726 at a reasonable price which was made the same way. One just sold on the board before I could get to it.

Drill 2 holes and pop rivet them or use screws.  No big deal and a "very common" occurance.  Look on ebay.  You will see lots of replacement steps because they fall off / get damaged.

And just my opinion. If you get this upset over something so minor I would not buy anything off of eBay or used items anymore.

I can understand your concern but these things happen even when bought new.  The new Gorilla Super Glue Gel is fantastic.  I'd invest $5.00 and buy some.

At 70+ years old, any of us would be glad to say, "a little dab will do" to borrow from a 50's   Brill Cream commercial!

On mine, Christmas 1948, the steps were the first things to come off. As I recall, they were held on by rivets. So: file the rivet heads off, reattach steps with JBWeld.

For a nice rare 1946 piece like yours I WOULD AVOID SCREWS AND GLUE without first attempting a proper repair. It is very simple to take a punch or rivet tool and carefully reform the rivet head over the step sheet metal. I've done this on a few of my PW turbines with great success.

It becomes a big deal (and I would return it and let the seller deal with the shipping damage and insurance) if you have to resort to screwing, tapping, gluing etc... as now you have a non-original degrading/devaluing repair

fisherdoc posted:

Well the plot thickens. Now that I had time to REALLY look at this thing, I see evidence of old glue from a prior repair and someone apparently "converted" it to a regular heating element. This guy represented this as ORIGINAL advertising it as the smoke bulb version and that is what I paid for and that is what I want. 

Some say this is minor stuff and I am over reacting well I don't think I am. This is blatant misrepresentation. I go by the sellers description. 

So now not only do I need to fix the steps but I am going to take this thing apart and see what butcher work in on the inside. Then to spend more money to get an original smoke bulb unit. 

OR it is just going to be returned. As I said, if I did business like this I would not HAVE a business!

I have been dealing with ebay almost since it started and no matter how hard you try if a seller is dishonest this is the result.

With the replaced heating element instead of the lamp smokebox, I wouldn't bother UNLESS you find and are interested in the rare contemporary upgrade Lionel produced - the biggest tell is the smoke lever difference (click to be take to the full size document on Olsens):

I stand corrected - it was MY mistake as far as the smoke bulb business and I am going to repair the steps, and without glue. I deleted my last post since I was wrong about the vintage.  Thanks for the advice!

fisherdoc posted:

I stand corrected - it was MY mistake as far as the smoke bulb business and I am going to repair the steps, and without glue. I deleted my last post since I was wrong about the vintage.  Thanks for the advice!

I see that you have decided not to super glue the steps to the frame.  I know JB Weld Epoxy is considered to be far superior to super glue but for whatever it is worth way back in 1977 I purchased an operator class 671 and the steps promptly fell on its first circuit around my layout.  At the time I was not familiar with JB Weld so used super glue instead.  43 years later that super glue is still holding those steps to the frame.   Go figure. 

joe krasko posted:

Fisherdoc.....drill and tap for a 4-40 screw....no big deal,I just did it....if not JB weld should do it....good luck...joe

OK my "crisis" (LOL) with the steps is resolved. After taking some measurements I decided to drill and tap - for these steps the perfect screw size is 6-32. There is a bit of a recess in the casting where the step frame mounts so a washer is needed UNDER the step frame so the tender drawbar doesn't bind. 

There is plenty of meat where the drilling is done. I used a Dremel bench top drill press. Since the remnants of the old hollow rivets were still there they provided the perfect pilot hole to start the drilling. I cut stainless steel screws for mounting the steps to the perfect length. 

That's about it. Definitely the better way to go. Initially I had no idea there was this much metal or even the room to do this but there is and it's a cinch. You just need to take care of the metal shavings. The motor needs to be out and the gears need to be all covered up in case of flying metal shavings.  I custom cut the screws using stainless steel so you can't even see anything protrude in the cab corners. And the stainless screws are hard so they bite into the new threads in the casting perfectly. 

BTW this Turbine has the red Atomic Motor. Someone suggested that these red motors were made "better" for applications like advertising layouts that ran all day long etc. It sounds fishy to me. Thanks for all the input!

glad you took my advice.....4-40/6/32....samo-samo.....joe

When I had to repair my Turbine, I was advised that if I used screws to hold them in place, the screw heads would not allow the drawbar to swing far enough to allow the engine and tender to navigate (sharper) curves. I ended up drilling out the remains of the casting (the "rivets" were cast into the cab floor and peened over the ladders) and using small aluminum rivets to hold the ladders in place. I remember having to use a block or spacer of some sort to get the rivet gun to fit in the tight quarters.

J White

Your repair looks "Factory". Better than pop-rivets anyway. Nice job.

VERY NICE JOB, but this method has altered the originality of your engine. The J.B. Weld or Super Glue approach will not have altered the engine and was reversible. Re-peaning those mounting studs (rivets?) would have been the most original repair, but perhaps more unstable than your permanent fix?

Tinplate Art posted:

VERY NICE JOB, but this method has altered the originality of your engine. The J.B. Weld or Super Glue approach will not have altered the engine and was reversible. Re-peaning those mounting studs (rivets?) would have been the most original repair, but perhaps more unstable than your permanent fix?

Agree with you 10000000000% @Tinplate Art. It is too bad the body casting was altered. Attempting to re-clench the existing original mounts has been very successful on the turbines I've had the pleasure of resurrecting with this issue.

I am a stickler for originality on all vintage items I work on, however, I guess sometimes it is best to just improve what is clearly VERY bad design. Provided, of course, that it IS an improvement and not sloppy work. To have those steps attached in such a feeble way on such a massive engine was putting too much thought into cost and not enough into practicality. Now, if need be, the steps can be replaced in a few minutes with a screwdriver! 

When I do stuff like this (in the vintage Hi-Fi world things like this MUST be done often) it is because it is the most sensible - in my opinion. I do it NEAT, and the repair is just about INVISIBLE - unless of course someone picks it up to analyze it. And it is the way it should have been from the beginning. Now the engine can at least be handled without worrying about the steps popping off.  Now I just need to blacken the screws - which are stainless steel. 

Now, sans some disaster, those original steps will be with that engine without the chance of getting lost. THAT has value too!

Thanks again! - AL

Great repair. Regarding "original" if this is indeed the 46 unit it was actually advised that the smoke units be upgraded so a lot of them were. So there are a lot of non-original units around.

It is in fact an early 1947 that dating was my error. The insides are like brand new its amazing how this unit was cared for all these years. I am happy to have it!

Does anyone know if there is any credence to this red motor thing?

Read here for the Red Brush plate Gold Seal Motors:

https://www.justtrains.com/Reb...26-1946/726-46-1.asp

Cooler running and greater torque makes your red brush plate motor a very desirable one. Cab steps issue aside, you did well on your purchase.  ☺