Lionel Aluminum Cars manufacturing question?

Mike,

I remember reading somewhere that in the postwar years the extruding was done by outside contractors for Lionel. I believe Lionel stamped out the windows, etc., but the extrusions were supplied to them.

I can't imagine that Mt. Clemens would have done it any differently, but that's just an educated guess.

I'm sure Todd or Bob O. will know for sure.

Jim

Mike, I don't recall where, but I remember reading that in Lionel's PW days the aluminum shells were produced at a plant somewhere in the Reading, Pa. area.   I don't know if  that continued into the MPC and/or Kughn eras. 

Interesting.  I think I have read the same thing but lets hope some with Mt Clemens knowledge chime in.

When I was dating, the subject of trains came up. Her father recognized the name "Lionel." He said that he had worked in Alcoa Aluminum in Cressona, on the northwest side of Schuylkill (SKOO-kill or -kull) Haven south of Pottsville, PA, in the 1950's. He told us that the plant had extruded aluminum bodies for Lionel 15" streamlined passenger cars. They were shipped to Lionel in Irvington/Hillside, where windows and baggage car doors were punched. Window strips and floors with lights, trucks and couplers were slipped into channels in the aluminum bodies.

He also recalled that defective bodies were returned to be recycled. Some had been extruded improperly or something had gone wrong when windows were punched. He said that some cars had trucks and couplers. Those would be collectors' items today.

He hadn't kept any cars but when I showed him my first train set (2222WS; 1954) he recognized the cars immediately. I also showed him my ALCOA hopper (6346; 1956). He thought that Lionel may have made that car to honor Cressona Aluminum. Those bodies had been extruded there since 1952.

I don't have any photos of the plant. But on the Saturday after Thanksgiving for the past two years, Santa Claus Specials headed by Reading & Northern 4-6-2 No. 425 and ex-Jersey Central 0-6-0 No. 113 have run from Minersville to Cressona. The plant is visible in the background of some videos. It is still, thank God, in business. I looked on YouTube but I couldn't find any brief videos of the plant. Maybe someone can post one. If not, go to YouTube and look for videos of the Santa Claus Specials at Cressona.

Here's an areal...

Lionel has kept a tight lid on the real story behind their extruded aluminum production, but here's an aerial of the real production facility, still in place....

....and a shot of the extrusion machine.

Vertical integration (keeping processes within one manufacturing location) is a great idea, protecting proprietary technologies of product and process, controlling production schedules/quantities, minimizing work-in-process shipping costs, etc., etc., etc..

However, extruding aluminum...ITC, toy train car bodies...is not something Lionel would've ever considered for in-house processing, IMHO.  Extrusion of aluminum, the basic process, was neither invented by Lionel, nor did the basic car body contour have unique qualities for which the material and die construction were to be protected.

Moreover, if you read through this link re the process...

AL extrusion link

...there is one line that rings the loudest for me...

"Typical extrusion presses cost more than $100,000, whereas dies can cost up to $2000."

...and that's JUST the press itself, one of them, without the handling/heating/prep equipment, specialized labor/costs, etc..  And, if your market/production/sales projections in a given year were dependent on successful production of items using this process, chances are you'd have some duplicity built in....a.k.a., a second >$100K press, et alia...in case the first set encountered problems.   That's easier for a specialty manufacturing shop, one that has multiple presses, depth of labor skills, serving multiple customers with similar product needs, etc., to handle than Lionel....for whom this process would've been uniquely tied to one product line...passenger cars.

All of that process expense has to be absorbed in the cost of the product, ultimately finding its way to the selling price to the consumer.  Duh?  Oh!? 

I'm sure Williams (USA-production era) didn't vertically integrate AL extrusion, either.  Nor K-Line.  Nor MTH.  Nor any other gauge mfr. of toy trains.

And, I'd really be surprised if Sanda Kan did/does.  The $$$ and technology-process-labor skill 'fit' really isn't unique to U.S. production.  It's the universal way you look at making money, making toy trains.

In my 31.5-years of engineering/management work with a large automotive corporation I visited and became reasonably acquainted with manufacturers specializing in metal extrusion process.  While hot or cold extrusion (not sure which Lionel's part would've used) of aluminum was not the process/parts I was involved with, the suppliers' plants were truly 'scary' places to be in.  When you're dealing with thousands of tons of pressure pushing hot or cold metal into and through dies, and rapidly handling/processing the resulting extrudate sometimes flying out of the press, you're definitely not squeezing oranges at a juice bar or putting toothpaste on your toothbrush!! 

FWIW, always...

And just one man's opinion, of course.

KD

I would suggest that aluminum cars may someday rise in value as a rare commodity among collectors.  There has been speculation that the decline in NatGas pricing brought on by the shale boom would entice manufacturers of Plastic products to locate in the USA.

In the meantime, there is likely to be a major shift toward 3D printing technologies that will enable manufacturers to bring production back in house and dare I say it, back to the USA?  Don't be surprised if the entire product becomes "printable" in some sense of the word.  For example, SpaceX is now capable of manufacturing the Dragon Capsule rocket motors via 3D printing techniques.

This opens up a whole new dimension to the home hobbyists, with the possibility, finally, of a modular scale platform, including motors and electronics of your choosing, along with shells of an infinite variety (including variations of prototypical mock-ups, smoke and light placement).  Then its up to you to decide your paint schemes, hues and decal placement, etceteras.  What I will surely miss is all the criticism and *****ing about the manufacturers getting it wrong... instead we will only have ourselves to criticize (if we live that long!)  LOL!  One thing for sure, 3D printing IS capable of a level of precision unlike any current manufacturing process and will ultimately be the most cost effective for anything requiring precision.

As for me, I will just be happy when I can 3D print 054 Super O curved track and switches!  

I had family who used to work for ALCOA, they remember seeing aluminum marked "Lionel".

There was a man, Clark Benson in Stratford, CT, who made O Scale Streamlined Passenger Car Kits.  He told me that he would rent the extruder head and set things up with whomever had the extruding machine and make the bodies for the kits he sold.  This was in the late 40's and early 50's.

All very interesting.   

I wish I could have some of the aluminum extrusions.  I could build lots of UP passenger cars from them.  Stuff that's never been done before in O scale.  Now, that'd be cool!

For what it's worth, the problem with building UP correct passenger cars is, and has been, the UP cars were riveted, thus virtually impossible to accomplish with an "extrusion". That is why Golden Gate Depot is trying to figure out how to produce correct UP passenger cars, at a fair price.

Interesting background, mk.  I have 8 of these Benson scale length aluminum car kits in OB's that I bought at some long forgotten train show in Chicagoland in the late '80's or thereabouts.  The extrusions appear to be identical to LIONEL, as are the plastic ends.  Three are vista domes with lead domes--extremely heavy; and, one is a flat ended observation car.  A couple of the cars don't have cut-outs for the trucks.

They come with clear acetate windows, and Masonite floors; but, would easily accept LIONEL frames, trucks, etc. Haven't figured out what to do with them, yet.

Thanks, again, mk, for your info.

Looks like the plant is now part of Sapa Extrusions.

Lionel used to lease out the extrusion and die-castings to local mom and pop shops over the years. Usually at this time the shops where local. 

When I was fresh out of college,  I work for a mirror supplier who was running die cast mirror heads at a prototype shop. What was going on the in die next to me were the 783/784/785 Hudson boiler shell castings. I talked to the press operator as I was waiting for them set up my die and said what are you going to do with these bins of parts here. He said oh, those are the rejects, they have some imperfections in them.

and I replied could I have a few? He handed me as much as I wanted when I left for the day... I think I handed out free boilers to all my train buddies that year.

I was in HO...

The Benson saga tells me that Lionel did these things in one piece.  Ed Alexander made Budd cars with two extrusions and window strips separately, and Midland Reproductions repeated that effort.

The Benson extrusions were identical to the Lionel extrusions, right down to the incorrect lower letter board.  Lionel did have some correct Budd extrusions done, and used them only on baggage cars.

If you like to cut your own, rumor has it that some smooth and some Daylight blank extrusions still exist in the Fresno area, and Haynes Mac Daniel, of Mac Shops, did three pretty much correct Budd extrusions.  I have cut windows in all of them, and am as happy with them as I am with K-Line and Sunset.  My one Benson car got sold three decades ago, mostly because of that incorrect lower letter board.  The Lionel ends would fit any of them.

The detailed post above brought a question to mind...which Williams items were USA made?  ..when did it shift off shore.

Also. didn't Lionel in recent years make an extruded aluminum hopper? And Amtrak Superliner?  I bet those are hard to find.

Back in 2005 Lionel cataloged a few different four car aluminum superliner sets.

Also cataloged the following year a station sounds diner and a two car sleeper set.

Watching all seven cars in a consist is a beautiful sight indeed.

Problem is, they're big and heavy and it requires super big front end power to get all seven cars moving.  

Joe

So far as I know:

"...which Williams items were USA made?" I'm no expert, but Williams is a young company

(1970's) and came along well after items such as model trains were typically made elsewhere, at least when discussing a new company or product line. The production of established product continued with already-paid-for tools and facilities, especially at the cottage-industry level.

I have read that early Williams Reproductions (original name) parts were made here, and made there, and both, and that most/all assembly took place in Maryland. Mike Wolf would know. There's a book, also, and I can't lay my hands on mine.

But, the Williams that became a big player in our little world - the brass line(s), the

PW-clones, the innumerable diesels, the track and transformers - has never been an

"on-shore" manufacturing operation.

Wonder if Williams made their Kusan based pieces in the USA that were catalog around 1980.  At that time they also had the aluminum cars...F7s..and Trainmasters in the catalog.

At one point in their history Williams was producing components abroad, then having the parts shipped stateside for assembly. Don't know how long that arrangement lasted though.

---PCJ

Mike,

Thanks for the shout-out.

Here are my comments from a thread of yours back in October.

The short version -- no aluminum extruding was ever done inside a Lionel plant in the US. It's too specialized and low-volume. The extrusions were trimmed to the proper length, then delivered to Lionel where the piercing and forming to produce different car styles occurred.

I hope this helps.

TRW

Thanks for the reply.  I recall the previous thread but was unable to locate it.  Thanks for the link.  

So I wonder if even up to the present...the extrusions were handled by a US vendor then shipped to China.  

While I can't say for certain through the present day, I would doubt it. I know that up through the mid-2000's, SandaKan sourced all the extrusions in China for the aluminum pieces that we had produced while I managed the category -- 15" & 18" passenger cars, 18" Superliners, and ACF hoppers. AFAIK, nothing was ever sourced in the US for these aluminum-bodied items produced in China.

Extrusion dies themselves aren't terribly expensive. The stamping and forming tools, however, as well as the injection and die-casting molds, are another story.

TRW

I wonder what happened with Lionel's aluminum body ACF Center Flow 3-bay covered hoppers made in China.

The first production runs were the 1965-1972 body style.

Then they unexpectedly changed to the 1972-1989 body style.

Was this noticeable change the decision of Lionel or the contracted company that made the aluminum covered hopper bodies?

Andrew

Falcon Service

I am interested in the hopper question as well.  Though I just ordered two that were still in stock.  

I wonder if Lionel kept control of the Aluminum Car tooling even though it was outsourced.  They had to send it to China to remake the offerings.  And I can't imagine the same US factory held them from 1954-1980.

I'm unfamiliar with the different body styles and years that you mention. What were the differences?

TRW

All of the 2531-era postwar tooling -- the trucks, stamped frames, molded ends/vestibules/domes, and forming/piercing tools -- were still the originals from the 1950's and had been transferred to SandaKan where they were in use through the mid-2000's. (Note that we obsoleted most of these when we upgraded the 15" aluminum cars in 2001 with interiors, as well as new trucks and ends with diaphragms in 2003.) Beyond the mid-2000's, I don't know.

The extrusion dies (and vendor) were likely new in 1979, with the modern release of the cars. Several different extrusion dies were used over the years, for different styles of cars -- fluted, partially fluted, smooth, etc. Also, the baggage cars always had a unique extrusion to account for the "guides" for the doors. Again, extrusion dies are relatively inexpensive to produce in the grand scheme of things.

I don't ever recall seeing any extrusion dies listed on the tooling master list, so it's likely one of the those things where you pay for and technically own them, but the extruding vendor considers them proprietary, so you don't ever get possession.

TRW

Interesting.  So there may be variations in the flutes from the 1979 on and the postwar years?   Did Lionel PW not make them with smooth sides?

I didn't know the 15" cars ever had new trucks and interiors until the 2013 Neil Young versions???

I recall reading an odd MPC story where they had to roll with smooth sides due to some production problem.  Or there was some defect with the first run..not sure if it was the N&W or NYC set...or another...

TRW, I sent you an email using the email address in your profile.  Basically, I'd like to know if LIONEL changed the extrusion from the PW style in order to install interiors.

The TM Guide to 1970's Lionel mentions how Lenny Dean talked General Mills into bringing back these cars.  It seems they had some sort of tooling at hand to make the push work...or either the process was easy enough to re-start. Very interesting story. 

Yup, a bunch. Even postwar had two different styles: the fully-ribbed cars that were first introduced in 1952, and the "flat channel" cars to hold the stripes starting in 1955.

No, that was an MPC design dating from 1983 with the introduction of the smooth-sided New York Central cars. And even though the following two sets were also smooth-sided (Union Pacific in '84 and Illinois Central in '85), each set has a unique extrusion to help decorate the stripes.

In 2001, with the introduction of the 6-21786 Santa Fe Anniversary Set (it's in the 2000 Volume 2 catalog), we created all-new interiors with figures, as well as re-introduced the large-door baggage car (and a new large-door combination car). That set also introduced the die-cast framed F-3 B unit, in both powered and unpowered versions.

In 2003, we upgraded the 15" cars again, with two different styles of end diaphragms and brand new, die-cast metal sprung trucks. We did this to "soften the blow" to my capital expenditures budget of 2004's brand new 18" cars, as we could use the trucks and new-style ends on both lengths of cars.

You really should check out these last fully-featured 15" cars. They kept the look of the postwar pieces (very important, in my opinion), but with all the detail a consumer could want. They're quite exquisite, but admittedly, I'm a bit biased. It'll be interesting to see if the Neil Young sets use this tooling.

I'm not familiar with the story to which you refer. The only production problem in the early years was how to get paint (starting with the N&W fluted set in 1981) to adhere to the extrusion. Anodizing the extrusion prior to painting solved the issue.

TRW

Thank you for all the great information TRW:

In 2001, with the introduction of the 6-21786 Santa Fe Anniversary Set (it's in the 2000 Volume 2 catalog), we created all-new interiors with figures, as well as re-introduced the large-door baggage car (and a new large-door combination car). That set also introduced the die-cast framed F-3 B unit, in both powered and unpowered versions.

I have this set an really like the effort that was put into it. Maybe Lionels best set ever? It fits perfectly on my smaller home layout, but still has that special Santa Fe feeling.

I do have one question that is a little off topic here.

You mentioned:

In 2003, we upgraded the 15" cars again, with two different styles of end diaphragms and brand new, die-cast metal sprung trucks. We did this to "soften the blow" to my capital expenditures budget of 2004's brand new 18" cars, as we could use the trucks and new-style ends on both lengths of cars.

Was there ever any attempt to correct/change/retro fit the windows on the 18 inch cars or was it just too costly to make any alteration? While I can live with the windows, I do think that they could have done a better job. Any thoughts you can or care to share?

Thanks Todd.

Charlie

Guys,

From an S-gauger here, would any of you know how the Gilbert American Flyer aluminum passenger cars fit into the discussion?  Who made them, where, etc., etc.?

Mark