Lionel Availability Frustration

@aka1178 posted:

Thanks but looking for just the BASE-1L

Probably out of luck for the BASE1L, they haven't been around alone for some time.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Probably out of luck for the BASE1L, they haven't been around alone for some time.

Curiosity question, what have people been using if they need a new base for their CAB-1L remotes since the base-3 has been delayed so long?  With the BASE-3 Lionel seems have raised the cost of entry for new hobbyist.  CAB-1L seems to be a low cost entry point where one could eventually grow into a BASE-3.

A layout only needs one command base, and can support many remotes.  Many people already have a Legacy command system and just wanted a simpler remote that was more rugged, that's why I bought the CAB1L's.  I actually sold an extra BASE1L I had as I had no use for it.

Why not get the Base/Cab-1L set from Sidetrack and the sell your extra Cab-1L remote?

@rplst8 posted:

Why not get the Base/Cab-1L set from Sidetrack and the sell your extra Cab-1L remote?

No longer in stock!

Older handheld remotes:  (1.) the antenna fails/ falls apart.  (2.) The key pad, behind the rubber-ish touch buttons, may need cleaned/re-vitalized.    There was a forum thread on this subject. 

@hokie71 posted:

No longer in stock!

When you snooze, you lose!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Note that they said CAB1L.  The BASE1L was previously announced as going away, but the CAB1L would still be offered to use with the new BASE3.  The Legacy #990 base and CAB2 are also going away.  Not sure when we'll see the BASE3, last I heard was in the spring.

Targeting sometime in the summer 23 for the Base3. Still working away at buttoning up the design. Just wanting it to be perfect!

Yes, the Base-1L is discontinued. We could no longer get the wall plug, and it turned out it no longer met the new AC transformer regulations. This applied to the Base2 as well. It was the same reason we had to redesign the PH180 and CW80. We have put our efforts into the Base3 to meet all new requirements for power.

For those waiting for the Cab-1L remotes, they arrived yesterday and will be shipping out soon.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm still struggling with the idea that the BASE3 provided enhanced functionality over the IRV2 and the add-on sensors!  It doesn't provide any of that functionality!

It doesn't. It was just tacked onto that list. The IRV2 was discontinued due to component availability issues, drastic price increases, and low sales volume.

Thanks,

Dave

@Dave Olson posted:

Targeting sometime in the summer 23 for the Base3. Still working away at buttoning up the design. Just wanting it to be perfect!

Yes, the Base-1L is discontinued. We could no longer get the wall plug, and it turned out it no longer met the new AC transformer regulations. This applied to the Base2 as well. It was the same reason we had to redesign the PH180 and CW80. We have put our efforts into the Base3 to meet all new requirements for power.

So if the wall plug for your LionChief sets can no longer be sourced, will you discontinue those too?

The common wall adapters used in Lionchief sets are significantly different from the wall adaptors used for the BASE & BASE2.  The BASE wall adapters are 3 pronged because they essentially use your household ground as an antenna.

Certainly a sad state of affairs for those trying to jump into command control.

Attention spans aren't that long these days.  Business is being lost by not having command systems available.

@rplst8 posted:

So if the wall plug for your LionChief sets can no longer be sourced, will you discontinue those too?

Those output DC power. Only power supplies that output AC have been affected.

@Dave Olson posted:

Those output DC power. Only power supplies that output AC have been affected.

The question still stands. I never implied they were the same.

@H1000 posted:

The common wall adapters used in Lionchief sets are significantly different from the wall adaptors used for the BASE & BASE2.  The BASE wall adapters are 3 pronged because they essentially use your household ground as an antenna.

I understand and know how the TMCC signal works. The question still remains.

@rplst8 posted:

I understand and know how the TMCC signal works. The question still remains.

The power supply that Lionel uses in their starter sets are so commonly used in so many other industries, that sourcing a new provider is too easy. There is nothing special about them and there are probably hundreds of manufactures that already make or can make a power supply that will meet Lionel's specifications for a cheap price. Basically, if Lionel isn't able to source such a generic power supply as this there are going to be a lot of other industries that will be feeling the same pain. Short of an Earth ending event, I don't see how this could ever happen. If UL changes some requirement for toy transformers later on down the road, Lionel and others will adapt and continue to provide.

Frustration is pretty much pervasive in life these days and I sympathize.  I cannot recall what life was like when I ate in a restaurant, travelled by air or sat in a movie theater without thinking at all about the safety of these activities, for simple ones.  More folks are needing to go to food banks despite low unemployment.  Not the easiest time in history for sure.

Things will probably improve at some point.  Once the Base 3 is available, I'm sure Lionel will consider feedback on what they should do for remotes.  My understanding is that the Base 3 will respond to LionChief remotes, including the $50 universal remote, so those that gotta have a physical remote can use that device to talk to the Base 3, as well as the cab-1L if they want something a bit more capable.  Just speculating based upon what I've remembered or misremembered from presentations .

Hopefully neither Ryan Kunkle nor Dave Olson will retire any time soon.  In my opinion, having met all these guys from the past, they are competent heirs to the Lionel traditions of Jon Z., Mike R. and Lou K.  Not to mention Neil Young .

Right now, I've got a ZW-L I bought some years ago for about $600 (sometimes it's better to be lucky than smart), TMCC, a used cab-2 and used Legacy base, a new cab-2 backup, a cab-1L I just received from my dealer and a LionChief universal remote.  I suspect a Base 3 is in my future some day.  I only bought the Legacy system (and a backup remote) when the writing was on the wall that these were going to be history.  I suppose the lesson is, if you can afford to do so, buy the stuff you might want in the future because nothing stays the same.  In the mean while, with no permanent layout, I enjoy looking at all this stuff, occasionally using them on a floor layout. I also am thinking how fortunate I am for a kid whose parents couldn't afford toy trains in the 1950s.  I'm definitely going to die with the best toys, hopefully not anytime soon.

@Landsteiner posted:

Things will probably improve at some point.  Once the Base 3 is available, I'm sure Lionel will consider feedback on what they should do for remotes.  My understanding is that the Base 3 will respond to LionChief remotes, including the $50 universal remote, so those that gotta have a physical remote can use that device to talk to the Base 3, as well as the cab-1L if they want something a bit more capable.  Just speculating based upon what I've remembered or misremembered from presentations .

I doubt the BASE3 will talk to the LC remotes, it will control LC/LC+ engines using the app or one of the TMCC/Legacy remotes.

Lionel 2208010 BASE3

Nowhere does it mention talking to the LC/LC+ remotes or the Universal Remote.

I guess that was wishful thinking on my part.  Hopefully, it won't be too challenging to make the Base 3 2.0 + respond to the Universal Remote or a new version of the Universal Remote in the future.

Too many folks who don't want to use their $1,200 smart phone or $500 tablet, with no physical feedback to change TV channels and/or talk to their trains.  I much prefer a physical remote for both my TV/cable/Roku and my trains, rather than a smart device with no tactile feedback. I think that's a common preference. Lionel would be wise to listen to the customers if this is the case.

@Landsteiner posted:

  Hopefully, it won't be too challenging to make the Base 3 2.0 + respond to the Universal Remote or a new version of the Universal Remote in the future.

Lol!! Of course!!!😆😆😆

I think the overall command strategy of Lionel has been disconnected and confusing at best.  Had they stuck with TMCC even in the lower end product offerings things would have been better.  What they should have done IMO is invested in creating a low cost command base remote system to pack with starter sets that was TMCC based.  The Bluetooth system isn't the greatest, range is limited and it's hard to grow with the limited abilities of the Bluetooth package they've installed in engines.  The earlier radio based Lionchief stuff worked good for a starter sets but could have been in a unified platform from get go.

Now we wait on Base3 which hopes to address all of these issues that honestly could have just been avoided.  If you can put TMCC in one of those little inspection cars, it certainly could have been put in any locomotive that Lionel has sold in a starter set.  If they had gone that route everyone could run anything today with a TMCC/Legacy based control system.

@Landsteiner posted:

I guess that was wishful thinking on my part.  Hopefully, it won't be too challenging to make the Base 3 2.0 + respond to the Universal Remote or a new version of the Universal Remote in the future.

Too many folks who don't want to use their $1,200 smart phone or $500 tablet, with no physical feedback to change TV channels and/or talk to their trains.  I much prefer a physical remote for both my TV/cable/Roku and my trains, rather than a smart device with no tactile feedback. I think that's a common preference. Lionel would be wise to listen to the customers if this is the case.

I suspect there's not going to be a Universal Remote connection to the BASE3, it connects directly to the engine in question.  I'll be very surprised if they put the effort into that avenue.

As for the physical remote, they are continuing the CAB1L, so that's at least one step up from MTH that just said use your smart device or lump it.

@MichRR714 posted:

If you can put TMCC in one of those little inspection cars, it certainly could have been put in any locomotive that Lionel has sold in a starter set.  If they had gone that route everyone could run anything today with a TMCC/Legacy based control system.

I don't think there was ever an issue of fitting the TMCC in, I think it was an effort to provide "product lanes" and command control was in a different lane.  However, I do agree with your contention, had they put TMCC in almost everything, it would be a much more unified world today.  Of course, I'm sure the bean counters would have something to say about that...

@Landsteiner posted:

I much prefer a physical remote for both my TV/cable/Roku and my trains, rather than a smart device with no tactile feedback. I think that's a common preference. Lionel would be wise to listen to the customers if this is the case.

@Landsteiner,

Although many voices have spoken here on the Forum, in both directions, it's not at all clear that folks prefer a physical remote with tactile feedback.  There are about 5 good technical reasons to offer physical/tactile over and above the standard emotional reason that we commonly recognize as "but it's what I'm accustomed to and comfortable with, and I don't like change".

Unfortunately many, many young folks, and some oldsters, are so enamored of their phones as extreme multi-purpose devices that they aren't able to consider these 5 good reasons.  The phone will win out if this attitude continues, especially if cost is considered.

So, how much extra will you pay for your physical/tactile device?  It will indeed cost extra, simply because phones, when used as control devices, are so economical, and because the existing devices can largely no longer be manufactured as they are, due to shortages and obsolescence.  It costs money to replace obsolete parts.  It takes extra money to buy parts that are in short supply.  If physical/tactile devices don't disappear then at a minimum their price will go up.

Are physical/tactile devices worth the extra cost?

Mike

@MichRR714 posted:

I think the overall command strategy of Lionel has been disconnected and confusing at best.  Had they stuck with TMCC even in the lower end product offerings things would have been better.

But...TMCC became obsolete....and then it wasn't... lionchief 2.0

@Mellow Hudson Mike posted:

@Landsteiner,

Although many voices have spoken here on the Forum, in both directions, it's not at all clear that folks prefer a physical remote with tactile feedback.  There are about 5 good technical reasons to offer physical/tactile over and above the standard emotional reason that we commonly recognize as "but it's what I'm accustomed to and comfortable with, and I don't like change".

Unfortunately many, many young folks, and some oldsters, are so enamored of their phones as extreme multi-purpose devices that they aren't able to consider these 5 good reasons.  The phone will win out if this attitude continues, especially if cost is considered.

What are the five "good technical reasons" you are referring to? Here's what I can come up with...

1. Folks that are disabled or vision-impaired have a hard time reading small text on phones (and yes tablets too).
2. Folks with essential tremor have a difficult time with touching "virtual buttons" on screens.
3. Someone calls my phone and now I can't stop my train that is maybe going to fast unless
4. Maybe I want to take photos or video of the train without having to task switch (personally I set my phone on a stand sometimes when I do this, so it makes switching back to "train control mode" cumbersome (at best).
5. Eyes on screen instead of on trains
6. Touchscreen controls cannot approach the fidelity you get with physical sliders and momentary switches
7. Using apps puts Lionel (and MTH) at the whims of the app store owners and phone manufacturers (try getting software that ran on an older version of Windows or MacOS working on a modern computer
8. Using apps requires that I have "app store" accounts and hand over private data to Apple and/or Google
9. In the case of Bluetooth, the range is fairly limited and works inconsistently

We'll call it 8.5 reasons both systems support WiFi in lieu of Bluetooth.

So, how much extra will you pay for your physical/tactile device?  It will indeed cost extra, simply because phones, when used as control devices, are so economical, and because the existing devices can largely no longer be manufactured as they are, due to shortages and obsolescence.  It costs money to replace obsolete parts.  It takes extra money to buy parts that are in short supply.  If physical/tactile devices don't disappear then at a minimum their price will go up.

TVs, stereos, ceiling fans, Christmas trees, garage doors, and many other things still come with physical remotes. Look at video games for example... Those controllers are extremely customized yet rarely last more than one generation of game system.  I know the CAB-2, the MTH DCS remote, and even the CAB-1L, are more advanced than those. But they were always more advanced that TV remotes. But TV remotes cost about $10-20 retail and we were already paying $200-ish for these (though I'm not sure what fraction of the $400 retail of the 990 was for the remote itself).

Personally, for a modern remote with:

• a nicely sculpted ergonomic shape
• some sort of screen readout
• sliders for the appropriate controls (or a combination of buttons and screen indicators, e.g. train brake)
• rotary encoder or "wheel" for speed control
• physical buttons for horn, bell, couplers, emergency stop, direction
• button matrix for most common functions
• Compatibility with existing receivers or with WiFi modules that connect to existing receivers
  • or alternatively some new inexpensive box that connects to the track
    • I have NO USE for any box that can also control non-TMCC or DCS equipped locomotives

I'd pay whatever the CAB-1 or CAB-2 remote's original costs were then in 2022 inflation adjusted dollars.

@RickO posted:

But...TMCC became obsolete....and then it wasn't... lioncheif 2.0

TMCC never really became obsolete, it was still in small motorized units, Fastrack switches, command accessories, etc.  They just declared our TMCC locomotives obsolete to sell more new stuff I suspect.

@rplst8 posted:

What are the five "good technical reasons" you are referring to? Here's what I can come up with...

1. Folks that are disabled or vision-impaired have a hard time reading small text on phones (and yes tablets too).
2. Folks with essential tremor have a difficult time with touching "virtual buttons" on screens.
3. Someone calls my phone and now I can't stop my train that is maybe going to fast unless
4. Maybe I want to take photos or video of the train without having to task switch (personally I set my phone on a stand sometimes when I do this, so it makes switching back to "train control mode" cumbersome (at best).
5. Eyes on screen instead of on trains
6. Touchscreen controls cannot approach the fidelity you get with physical sliders and momentary switches
7. Using apps puts Lionel (and MTH) at the whims of the app store owners and phone manufacturers (try getting software that ran on an older version of Windows or MacOS working on a modern computer
8. Using apps requires that I have "app store" accounts and hand over private data to Apple and/or Google
9. In the case of Bluetooth, the range is fairly limited and works inconsistently

We'll call it 8.5 reasons both systems support WiFi in lieu of Bluetooth.

TVs, stereos, ceiling fans, Christmas trees, garage doors, and many other things still come with physical remotes. Look at video games for example... Those controllers are extremely customized yet rarely last more than one generation of game system.  I know the CAB-2, the MTH DCS remote, and even the CAB-1L, are more advanced than those. But they were always more advanced that TV remotes. But TV remotes cost about $10-20 retail and we were already paying $200-ish for these (though I'm not sure what fraction of the $400 retail of the 990 was for the remote itself).

Personally, for a modern remote with:

• a nicely sculpted ergonomic shape
• some sort of screen readout
• sliders for the appropriate controls (or a combination of buttons and screen indicators, e.g. train brake)
• rotary encoder or "wheel" for speed control
• physical buttons for horn, bell, couplers, emergency stop, direction
• button matrix for most common functions
• Compatibility with existing receivers or with WiFi modules that connect to existing receivers
  • or alternatively some new inexpensive box that connects to the track
    • I have NO USE for any box that can also control non-TMCC or DCS equipped locomotives

I'd pay whatever the CAB-1 or CAB-2 remote's original costs were then in 2022 inflation adjusted dollars.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I don't think there was ever an issue of fitting the TMCC in, I think it was an effort to provide "product lanes" and command control was in a different lane.  However, I do agree with your contention, had they put TMCC in almost everything, it would be a much more unified world today.  Of course, I'm sure the bean counters would have something to say about that...

So hear me out, I'm not an expert on the antenna system that the TMCC/Legacy bases and locomotives use, but assuming you had no other bases in use, could a remote have been made to talk to directly to one engine that had TMCC/Legacy in it?

I'm talking about the new hobbyist, just entering the market and "dipping their toe in the water" so to speak. Would that have ever been an option?

Or does the way the 455kHz TMCC signal works prevent that?

If this would have been possible, it seems like that would have been the way to create product lanes. Put cheaper less capable electronics in the locos (maybe lower quality speakers and sound sets, no electro couplers, no lighting control, etc.) and a cheap(er) remote to use with them that maybe only had speed, bell, and horn.

Then later on, when the customer wanted to upgrade they could have gotten a Legacy system but it would still be able to control the loco since all along it was designed to work with the 455kHz TMCC signal.

@rplst8 posted:

So hear me out, I'm not an expert on the antenna system that the TMCC/Legacy bases and locomotives use, but assuming you had no other bases in use, could a remote have been made to talk to directly to one engine that had TMCC/Legacy in it?

I'm talking about the new hobbyist, just entering the market and "dipping their toe in the water" so to speak. Would that have ever been an option?

Or does the way the 455kHz TMCC signal works prevent that?

There are real problems attempting to do what you suggest.  I don't think that would have been possible, the way the TMCC signal is propagated requires a fixed connection from the command base to the track and to earth ground ( building wiring ).  There could possibly have been a much lower cost base and remote unit, not unlike the remote for Lionchief, for instance.  The base could have had a much more limited addressing function, perhaps 1, 2, 3 to correspond to the button on a LC Universal Remote.

@rplst8 posted:

What are the five "good technical reasons" you are referring to? Here's what I can come up with...

1. Folks that are disabled or vision-impaired have a hard time reading small text on phones (and yes tablets too).
2. Folks with essential tremor have a difficult time with touching "virtual buttons" on screens.
3. Someone calls my phone and now I can't stop my train that is maybe going to fast unless
4. Maybe I want to take photos or video of the train without having to task switch (personally I set my phone on a stand sometimes when I do this, so it makes switching back to "train control mode" cumbersome (at best).
5. Eyes on screen instead of on trains
6. Touchscreen controls cannot approach the fidelity you get with physical sliders and momentary switches
7. Using apps puts Lionel (and MTH) at the whims of the app store owners and phone manufacturers (try getting software that ran on an older version of Windows or MacOS working on a modern computer
8. Using apps requires that I have "app store" accounts and hand over private data to Apple and/or Google
9. In the case of Bluetooth, the range is fairly limited and works inconsistently

We'll call it 8.5 reasons both systems support WiFi in lieu of Bluetooth.

1. Speaking of small screens that are hard to read, the DCS remote and CAB2 leave a lot to be desired. I mean the resolution is comparable to that of Gameboy from 1988. Not to mention a back light that washes out the LCD and makes harder to read. I have a hard time reading my DCS remote sometimes as my eyes aren't what they use to be and never did memorize all of the 3 letter acronyms for the soft keys. The app on the other hand uses larger text, color, icons & graphics, easy to read fonts, and all of the features are fully spelled out. My device of choice right now is a Motorola XT907 with a 4.3" screen. Oddly enough, that tiny little screen is easier to read than my DCS remote and ALL buttons and functions are backlit because they are all on an HD backlit screen that automatically dims according to lighting conditions. Plus it fits in my shirt pocket.

2. There is an older member in our train club that has Parkinson's and operating the remotes with their tiny buttons is extremely difficult, let alone holding them like we do. The app with larger buttons (on a 11 inch tablet) and the use of a weighted stylus has been much easier for him to use. Before the apps, he was limited to conventional operation only. His tremors are controlled with the stylus and the first time he enjoyed command control was with an app. He tried with before with a DCS remote and dropped it. At the time, the remote only cost $160 to replace but the tablet he was using cost about $45. I assure you that Smart devices have way more ADA compliant technology incorporated in them vs. any of the train remotes.

3. Go buy an extra used older smart device on eBay, they are certainly cheaper than any train remote made past, present or future. $20 will easily get you a nice phone or tablet made in the last 10 years that can run any of the popular train control apps (hopefully this applies to the new CAB3 app). If someone calls me on my phone while my train is going too fast, I ignore the call on my phone and use my dedicated device to slow the train down. Once everything on the table is running comfortably for me, I'll pick up my phone and answer if it's still ringing and if it's someone I want to talk to.

4. Switching between the camera app and my train apps are pretty easy to do. Multi-tasking is a core feature of smartphones. My dad is 83 and uses his smartphone with multiple apps (including running trains) and takes calls without issue. Then again old/used smart devices are cheap.

5. The CAB2 and DCS remotes both have screens you need to look at too. Only the most basic of functions can be performed without looking or one handed. Lionel has already implemented voice control (still needs some improvement) which requires no screen or any device in your hands. The quickset speed feature on the DCS app is way easier to use than that of the remote. I can get six consists started from a dead stop to running speed much faster in the DCS app than I ever could with the remote.

6. Yes touchscreens don't provide tactile feedback, neither does the touchscreen on the CAB2. It has a grid but unlike the "F" and "J" keys on a keyboard, there no way to "feel" where your fingers are orientated on that screen without looking at it. The Cab1 and DCS remotes require you to look at them when using the number pads, muscle memory is no good when all the buttons feel the same and there are no braille indicators to help you orientate your thumb to a "home" position without looking. I have shown that it is possible to add (more usable) tactile buttons everyone misses to an app based device through add-on gaming hardware. Now instead of a "one size fits some" remote, you can choose the screen size you want, the game controller with button layout you want, and assign those buttons any feature you want.  IT'S FULLY CUSTOMIZABLE. I would love to swap some functions around on my CAB1 remote but we all know that's impossible to do. Now if the app developers would make the screens in their apps customizable...

7. Yes & no. I'll speak for google on this one, Apple products are not something I deal with regularly. Google doesn't specifically restrict apps to a certain minimum requirement of Android OS version. MTH & Lionel can both make their apps available for older devices, if THEY choose to do so. Google won't tell them "no dice" for app that still supports something as old as Android 4.4, that's up to Lionel, MTH or whomever develops an app to support that older equipment.  The current release of the DCS app will still run on Android 4.1 from 2012, the Lionchief app would too if Lionel did some bug fixes to it.

8. If security is such a big concern, go make up a google account just for your train controlling device. Use a fake name when creating the account. If the app needs an in-app purchase to upgrade, put on a disguise, take a bus to Wall-mart, buy a google play card (pay cash), and use it to purchase the upgrade.  Keep in mind you have already given google and apple more information about yourself than you already know. If you have WiFi at home and you let anyone with a device developed by Google, Apple, Microsoft, or Amazon connect to it... they are collecting information about you, your network and the devices attached to it.

9. Bluetooth has excellent range, If it is implemented properly. Lionel's first generation of Bluetooth has low output power, and terrible antennas which contribute to its mediocre performance. Dave Olsen has assured us that newer locomotives and the BASE3 have greatly improved range.  I have Bluetooth devices that are almost 20 years old now that easily make 500 feet of range LOS, and half that with obstructions in the way.

@aka1178 posted:

I hear you and agree.  The base 3 brings Legacy, TMCC, LionChief remotes all down to one set of expensive equipment.  They sell entry level LionChief original and 2.0 sets with a remote for each engine to entice new hobbyist but $450 quickly prices entry level out.  At least the Cab-1L and base were a somewhat tolerable expense and cheap when compare to the base 3.  Seems like the biggest mistake my daughter made was buying the Polar Express Speeder, like paying $150 for the pleasure of then spending hundreds more.  (maybe that's by design).

As us baby boomers die out will there be enough enthusiasm to continue spending mega bucks on toy trains to keep them in business.

The Cab-1L remotes should have clearly noted that it required a Cab-1L or Legacy base to operate on the packaging. No Cab-1L remotes or bases for sale is unbelievable.

"The Cab-1L remotes should have clearly noted that it required a Cab-1L or Legacy base to operate on the packaging. No Cab-1L remotes or bases for sale is unbelievable."

Only the base has been discontinued. Just received a cab-1L from my dealer and it's in the catalog.  Base 3 will be the replacement for the cab-1L base and Legacy base when it arrives next year.  The need for a cab-1L or Legacy base during 2022 is a problem that Lionel did not, and perhaps could not anticipate given the upheaval of the last 2.8 years or so.

@H1000 posted:

3. Go buy an extra used older smart device on eBay, they are certainly cheaper than any train remote made past, present or future. $20 will easily get you a nice phone or tablet made in the last 10 years that can run any of the popular train control apps (hopefully this applies to the new CAB3 app).

BUZZ, WRONG!  I have a Samsung Note 4, and the Lionel APP refuses to run on it!  Runs fine on my Samsung S21.

6. Yes touchscreens don't provide tactile feedback, neither does the touchscreen on the CAB2. It has a grid but unlike the "F" and "J" keys on a keyboard, there no way to "feel" where your fingers are orientated on that screen without looking at it.

Wrong again, there is a grid you can feel on the CAB2 keypad, I use it all the time without looking at it.

The current release of the DCS app will still run on Android 4.1 from 2012, the Lionchief app would too if Lionel did some bug fixes to it.

A big if that hasn't happened for years, so your contention I can buy an old device and be OK, is invalid.

9. Bluetooth has excellent range, If it is implemented properly. Lionel's first generation of Bluetooth has low output power, and terrible antennas which contribute to its mediocre performance. Dave Olsen has assured us that newer locomotives and the BASE3 have greatly improved range.  I have Bluetooth devices that are almost 20 years old now that easily make 500 feet of range LOS, and half that with obstructions in the way.

Once again, the current stuff we all own has lousy BT range.  Are you suggesting we just toss a few thousand dollars worth of engines so we can use a smart device?

BUZZ, WRONG!  I have a Samsung Note 4, and the Lionel APP refuses to run on it!  Runs fine on my Samsung S21.

Did you miss my note about the bugs in the recent lionchief app. If Lionel would provide the source code, I'll get them fixed for you. I have the same problem with the my XT907, I can get it to luanch but as soon as I ask it to find an BLE equipped engine, it crashes.

@H1000 posted:

6. Yes touchscreens don't provide tactile feedback, neither does the touchscreen on the CAB2. It has a grid but unlike the "F" and "J" keys on a keyboard, there no way to "feel" where your fingers are orientated on that screen without looking at it.

Wrong again, there is a grid you can feel on the CAB2 keypad, I use it all the time without looking at it.

But you have no "home key" you can't tell where your finger is because each space looks and feels the same. Hence this is why computer keyboards have raised bumps on "F" & "J", so that you can orientate fingers without looking at it. I suspose you could do it by counting out the number spaces but looking at it much easier and faster.  Plus, if the background icons change from subset of function to another, how do you know exactly what the button is going to do without visually seeing the icon displayed. Also, I have big hands and the little squares are too small, I can easily press more than one function or the wrong function with my thumb, so now I have to use my other hand and look at the screen to see what I am pressing.

All of the meat and potatoes of train operation can be done solely by feel on the cab2.

This includes ,throttle, brake, whistle, bell as well front and rear coupler.

None of these can be done on any other control system in any scale without looking at the handheld be it phone,iPad, dcs, or dcc.

The keypad on the cab 2 is primarily for turning on and off extra "features" i.e. smoke, lights, crewtalk, towercom etc.

What everyone is missing/forgetting is.

Long before legacy was developed. Many of the semi scale lionchief locos were originally offered with tmcc back in the early 2000s. Many starter sets came with a transformer but were Tmcc equipped.

(I would post links to old catalogs with these locos and sets,but...Lionel deleted them from their website. Go figure.)

This is why it's ironic that Lionchief 2.0 includes tmcc. A solution to a problem that never really existed. Until Lionel created it by claiming tmcc was obsolete and began offering trains with a Fisher Price style remote.

I wonder if any of those who are casting shade on LionChief actually own any Lionel sets with LionChief locos or separate sale LionChief locos?  I have several and they are terrific value for money.  Very reliable connection between the loco and the remote.  Command control locos that can operate on DCS or TMCC/Legacy layouts independently, with most important functions people care about, and very unlike typical conventional sets of the past.  Sets that are under $300, and in some cases on sale for under $200.  Nothing like this is otherwise available in the three rail hobby market.  Locos that are also in that price range. Designed for beginning hobbyists or those on a budget, who aren't in the market for scale locos. Particularly suitable for children/grandchildren.

I think Lionel has done well by the hobby, consumers and dealers to keep costs reasonable for those for whom this is important, and lowered the cost of initial entry into the hobby.  I own a few thousand dollar TMCC/Legacy locos and they are quite nice, but I like my $200 LionChief locos too .  Obviously not of interest to everyone, particularly those who prefer high end, scale locos.  But a great entry point into the hobby and opportunity for those who cannot or do not want to spend many thousands of dollars on their collection/layout.  Great under the tree, like my Christmas set with lighted Fastrack.  Nothing like it in the hobby and pretty reasonable in cost. Same for my Area 51 set with green light Fastrack.  Brings back memories of the 1950s when trains were toys.

For those talking about using a remote by feel let me comment. In Sept 2019 I was run over by a truck that stopped and then floored it at a fire scene. Bottom line up till then I could REMEMBER some things. Since the accident my memory has been greatly affected. NO YOU CAN NOT USE A CAB2 REMOTE without memory! I also find some (NOT ALL OBVIOUSLY) older folks have trouble remembering where certain functions are. This will also apply to the DCS remote.

Of the three remotes, Cab2, DCS and Lionchief, Lionchief is the most easiest because it only controls ONE engine and is not full of buttons. DCS will be second and CAB2 will always have to be looked at for MOST features unless your memory is superior to most. In that case congratulations and why are you running trains? If my memory was superb I definitely would be raking in the big bucks with no effort and be traveling the world riding the real thing or buying the real thing and operating them!

The fact that ALL Manufacturers are turning to Phones and tablets is obvious. Look around. Travel the highway. You will see the YOUNGER generations LIVE on their electronic devices. BUT even they have to look at them as they can not remember where all the buttons are! The cost savings alone to a manufacturer are tremendous. The apps can be updated with little effort on their part and hardly NON on our part. Whether we like it or not phones and tablets are here to stay and WILL eventually be all we have to operate the greatest thing since Ice Cream, OUR TRAINS!

Hi Folks,

At first I didn't think I'd like the LionChief remote, but after I actually used it, I think it's absolutely fantastic!  I have 2 bashed "locos" that use a the LionChief board, but I only use the app to configure a few things like volume and disabling any kind of 'talk.'  (If you're into automation Arduino-style, you can use an ESP32 with it's built-in Bluetooth LE to control your LionChief loco.)

I only have O27 stuff, most vintage from my childhood, so I certainly cannot relate to any loco costing over $300.   I love basic tubular or GarGraves track, and dislike the look of Fastrack.

I don't know how a young parent can afford to set up a small layout their home with anything other than LionChief, if buying new product!

So if I were "Lionel King," it would be all affordable LionChief sets with tubular track and affordable turnouts and switches.  And I'd bring back the Snoopy and Woodstock handcar, with LionChief.    The world needs more Snoopy, and less strife!

Only my very humble opinion!!!!

Hope Everyone has a Merry and Blessed Christmas!!!!!

Take care, Joe.

@CurtisH posted:

Whether we like it or not phones and tablets are here to stay and WILL eventually be all we have to operate the greatest thing since Ice Cream, OUR TRAINS!

Just wait until you have to slam the throttle closed to avoid an expensive wreck, and you can't.  Even finding an emergency stop icon on a phone in an emergency is not doable quickly enough when time is of the essence.

There are several very good reasons for having tactile feedback.  These are two of them.

Mike

@Joe Rampolla posted:

If you're into automation Arduino-style, you can use an ESP32 with its built-in Bluetooth LE to control your LionChief loco.

Hi Joe,

Do you have a resource that you’d recommend for me to look into using this to control LC engines? I’ve been toying with trying some automation and am in the early research phase. Thanks!