Lionel CSA-2 Brass Hybrid Challenger Arrived

Impressive thanks for sharing.

@zhubl posted:

this is hear just as some information for curious minds we don’t need another bashing thread,

Well done post Zachariah. Descriptive, concise with great photos.

Very informative and helpful to those who purchased these.

I have to wonder about this dogbone being almost out of the joint, I'd expect some rough running.

4 digit addressing is internal to the main board, this board is the Bluetooth board, note the BT antenna.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have to wonder about this dogbone being almost out of the joint, I'd expect some rough running.

4 digit addressing is internal to the main board, this board is the Bluetooth board, note the BT antenna.

Yes definitely a rough running with the drive like that. That was with one motor mount screw missing and the other very loose. I never ran it like that so no telling how rough it would’ve been.

John I thought the same thing that was the Bluetooth board but if you look under the wires you can see the integrated Bluetooth board with its own antenna on the LCP3 board

is that new board just another Bluetooth radio strictly for stuff with the new Base 3? Maybe not necessarily 4 digit addressing, it’s just the radio board didn’t look any different than usual either so that’s what made me think that.

While you're in there I would replace the circled item with a Pittman .

@zhubl posted:

is that new board just another Bluetooth radio strictly for stuff with the new Base 3? Maybe not necessarily 4 digit addressing, it’s just the radio board didn’t look any different than usual either so that’s what made me think that.

Well, their two-way communication capability is bound to require a Bluetooth back-channel, so maybe that's it.  I'm sure that the two-way communication ain't going over the track.

I'd be thrilled if they would specify more lubrication in the gear boxes.  This is a disturbing trend.

@zhubl posted:

As is from factory

all the grease removed from the rear gear box

with that find I moved to the front engine. It was better but still not much

this is the front engine after removing as much as possible and putting it in the top plate.

Where is the front bearing?! What a joke! For a $2000 locomotive?

The chances that I preorder a PRR M1 or get an I1sa just keep dwindling…

@rplst8 posted:

Where is the front bearing?! What a joke! For a $2000 locomotive?

The chances that I preorder a PRR M1 or get an I1sa just keep dwindling…

There is definitely a front bearing I just simply had it sitting out of frame, I didn't need it jumping off the worm and disappearing into a abyss

@zhubl posted:

There is definitely a front bearing I just simply had it sitting out of frame, I didn't need it jumping off the worm and disappearing into a abyss

Actually gremlins would have moved it never to see it again………..”so that’s were all my 7/16 wrenches went”

lmao

Thanks for sharing the pics and videos, Zach!

I didn't order one, but so far, this looks like a solid locomotive.

Now to wait for no. 90.

@zhubl posted:

Yes definitely a rough running with the drive like that. That was with one motor mount screw missing and the other very loose. I never ran it like that so no telling how rough it would’ve been.

John I thought the same thing that was the Bluetooth board but if you look under the wires you can see the integrated Bluetooth board with its own antenna on the LCP3 board

is that new board just another Bluetooth radio strictly for stuff with the new Base 3? Maybe not necessarily 4 digit addressing, it’s just the radio board didn’t look any different than usual either so that’s what made me think that.

Did tightening up the motor mount pull in the motor towards the gear box and take up that excessive slack in the dog bone?…..after you tightened up the motor mount, did you check to see how much end play was between the cups?….I’ve had quite a few Legacy big steam that I’ve had to build a better driveshaft ( dog bone) because even with the motor mount tight, the end play was just too excessive IMO, ….a before & after shot would’ve been handy,……

Pat

@Lou1985 posted:

While you're in there I would replace the circled item with a Pittman .

The UPS man wouldn’t even be done his route before we evicted that thing, …..huh ol buddy?

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

The UPS man wouldn’t even be done his route before we evicted that thing, …..huh ol buddy?

Pat

I'd at least put the locomotive on the track and make sure it worked first, before I replaced the motor.

@Lou1985 posted:

I'd at least put the locomotive on the track and make sure it worked first, before I replaced the motor.

All of 3 feet?….😉

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

All of 3 feet?….😉

Pat

Nah. Run it on rollers, motor swap, then ready to hit actual rails. 

@harmonyards posted:

Did tightening up the motor mount pull in the motor towards the gear box and take up that excessive slack in the dog bone?…..after you tightened up the motor mount, did you check to see how much end play was between the cups?….I’ve had quite a few Legacy big steam that I’ve had to build a better driveshaft ( dog bone) because even with the motor mount tight, the end play was just too excessive IMO, ….a before & after shot would’ve been handy,……

Pat

My bad Pat I didn’t even think of an after picture. I was honestly shocked when John pointed out how loose it was because I specifically remember when I was done it was actually pretty tight in the cups very little horizontal movement

You know guys I don’t doubt the Pittmans being superior to the Canons but I have yet to have an issue with any of my locomotives with Canons if I do you can bet I’ll hit Pat up for a Pittman.

you know I’ve seen a Ametek building out by Sprit Aerosystems as I go between jobs. Doubt I could get any motors out of them with out selling a limb.

@zhubl posted:

You know guys I don’t doubt the Pittmans being superior to the Canons but I have yet to have an issue with any of my locomotives with Canons if I do you can bet I’ll hit Pat up for a Pittman.

you know I’ve seen a Ametek building out by Sprit Aerosystems as I go between jobs. Doubt I could get any motors out of them with out selling a limb.

You said a mouthful right there, …….the rep from Ametek actually came out & visited me, …but it took him all of 30 seconds to say thanks, but no thanks,….

Pat

@zhubl posted:

There is definitely a front bearing I just simply had it sitting out of frame, I didn't need it jumping off the worm and disappearing into a abyss

The shaft looks threaded all the way to the end. Weird.

@Mikado 4501 posted:

Thanks for sharing the pics and videos, Zach!

I didn't order one, but so far, this looks like a solid locomotive.

Now to wait for no. 90.

Did you cancel your no. 90 preorder?

@rplst8 posted:

The shaft looks threaded all the way to the end. Weird.

I've seen it like that before the worm is just milled down so it fits into the front bearing this one also has another brass bushing

@zhubl posted:

I've seen it like that before the worm is just milled down so it fits into the front bearing this one also has another brass bushing

That seems like it would wear excessively on one or the other and eventually wear out.

That is real nice looking engine, Zachariah, and commendation to you for going through preparation and what the army calls PMCS (Preventative Maintenance checks and services).

I am curious as to what the resident forum experts think would've happened without going through PMCS on this model? To my rudimentary understanding, a pinched wire could/would result in a short, which can be serious enough to destroy circuit boards; and a loose/missing motor mount screw would result in excessive gear wear.

If it were my engine, I would let Dave Olson at Lionel know of the experience. These are premium models, and the more real-world experience of operators sharing, the better Lionel will be equipped to head these issues off.

@Paul Kallus posted:

I am curious as to what the resident forum experts think would've happened without going through PMCS on this model? To my rudimentary understanding, a pinched wire could/would result in a short, which can be serious enough to destroy circuit boards; and a loose/missing motor mount screw would result in excessive gear wear.

A pinched wire is one of the most common factory faults, and when it pierces the insulation, it will usually kill something for sure!

@zhubl posted:

You know guys I don’t doubt the Pittmans being superior to the Canons but I have yet to have an issue with any of my locomotives with Canons if I do you can bet I’ll hit Pat up for a Pittman.

I'm at 4 dead RCMC boards due to the Canon motor throwing a brush and shorting out. I did actually manage to rescue one of them by replacing the driver FETs, the other three were goners. I guesstimate out of around 60 or so Legacy steamers that's my total of 4 bad motors. That's not a batting average that I'd apply to any decent motor!

@rplst8 posted:

That seems like it would wear excessively on one or the other and eventually wear out.

That’s standard practice for them now, …..I’ve seen herds of them made that way now, ……while it does seem dumb, I haven’t seen any fail yet,……the engagement on the worm wheel is plenty,….

Pat

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm at 4 dead RCMC boards due to the Canon motor throwing a brush and shorting out. I did actually manage to rescue one of them by replacing the driver FETs, the other three were goners. I guesstimate out of around 60 or so Legacy steamers that's my total of bad motors. That's not a batting average that I'd apply to any decent motor!

For prospective, out of how many?  We looking at 5%, 3%, 1% failure rate?  Recent failures or when Lionel first switched?  Reason I ask you guys are gobbling up all the pittmans left in the market for something that might or might not be needed.

@superwarp1 posted:

For prospective, out of how many?  We looking at 5%, 3%, 1% failure rate?  Recent failures or when Lionel first switched?  Reason I ask you guys are gobbling up all the pittmans left in the market for something that might or might not be needed.

I'm guessing you didn't read the whole post.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I guesstimate out of around 60 or so Legacy steamers that's my total of 4 bad motors. That's not a batting average that I'd apply to any decent motor!

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I'm guessing you didn't read the whole post.

No I'm at work.  I jump on when I can sneak by the boss.     Older engines, new engines?  Wondering if Cannon had a bad batch or they improved the design/manufacturing?  

@superwarp1 posted:

For prospective, out of how many?  We looking at 5%, 3%, 1% failure rate?  Recent failures or when Lionel first switched?  Reason I ask you guys are gobbling up all the pittmans left in the market for something that might or might not be needed.

IMO Gary, the Cannon is straight up a gamble ……it fails in a weird way that lets the brush arm short to the can, …..that can be the kiss of death for a RCMC ….I actually had one give me a 5 minute warning by the horribly audible clicking sound like a baseball card in bicycle spokes…some of the legacy gurus say the motor driver over load  self protect kicks in, but it doesn’t do any good for dead short to ground…..load is one thing, completed path is another……😉

Pat

Well, It looks like the brush is poorly designed and can easily break off and then short things out internally.  While the RCMC has motor stall protection, Jon told me that a direct short is not able to be detected quickly enough to prevent cooking the FET motor drivers.  Obviously, Jon's the one to ask for specific details, but suffice to say that the motor short protection isn't perfect for the RCMC.  Given that fact, frequently the motor failure also takes the RCMC with it.  I believe it was Pat @harmonyards that posted a picture of the motor cracked open and how the brush breaks free and is rattling around inside the motor.

Yes, I opened mine up and discovered the fragile piece in the cheesy plastic brush holder. ….that was the end for me, ….they’ve all since been evicted. …..I have some fresh 2023 refugees here at the shop if Gary would like me to open one up,…..I doubt Cannon changed anything, and Lionel probably doesn’t care given the rate of attrition is more than likely acceptable to them nowadays ……

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

Yes, I opened mine up and discovered the fragile piece in the cheesy plastic brush holder. ….that was the end for me, ….they’ve all since been evicted. …..I have some fresh 2023 refugees here at the shop if Gary would like me to open one up,…..I doubt Cannon changed anything, and Lionel probably doesn’t care given the rate of attrition is more than likely acceptable to them nowadays ……

Pat

I’ve ask Dave at Lionel about this and if he’s to be believed Lionel is not seeing a high failure rate, are they lasting just long enough to get past the one year warranty?

@superwarp1 posted:

I’ve ask Dave at Lionel about this and if he’s to be believed Lionel is not seeing a high failure rate, are they lasting just long enough to get past the one year warranty?

All of the locomotives I replaced them in after failure were more than a year old.  Of course, many people don't run a new locomotive long enough to find out if something is going to fail in a year's time.

@superwarp1 posted:

I’ve ask Dave at Lionel about this and if he’s to be believed Lionel is not seeing a high failure rate, are they lasting just long enough to get past the one year warranty?

As John said, the ones I’ve actually seen fail are out of warranty, so I’d imagine this ain’t Dave’s problem,….Also to note, the ones I have seen fail were all folks like myself that use the models as intended…..run them!…..Some people do a parade lap one time, then back on the shelf, ……I’d venture to say most of them would last forever, maybe with the one odd failure here or there……..but anyone who’s ever visited here can attest, there’s always trains running on my layout….So eviction notices, and an ink pen are always on the ready!…..😉

Pat

HEY @gunrunnerjohn....

Is this defect visible from the outside of the motor(s)? I'd like to check out my Lionmaster Challenger that I did so much work on to resuscitate the 'ole girl'....

@Junior posted:

HEY @gunrunnerjohn....

Is this defect visible from the outside of the motor(s)? I'd like to check out my Lionmaster Challenger that I did so much work on to resuscitate the 'ole girl'....

There is no hint of any issue from the outside until the brush falls off.  I suspect there is a very short time that the motor probably doesn't run right before the brush is completely off.  However, I've never actually been there for the failure, just cleaning up after the carnage.

@Junior posted:

HEY @gunrunnerjohn....

Is this defect visible from the outside of the motor(s)? I'd like to check out my Lionmaster Challenger that I did so much work on to resuscitate the 'ole girl'....

Your lionmaster Challenger doesn’t have a Cannon motor, …..that should have two Mabuchi 385’s ….that’s a traditional sized Challenger designed to run on O31 curves…….no?

Pat

@harmonyards

Hey Pat....

Yes....its designed to run on 031 curve. I'm limited to Lionmaster "Big Steam" because my layout has 054 and 072 curve mixed all through it. Sounds like I should be in the clear.

Hey.....since I have your attention....how do I go about contacting you and ask you to convert a Lionel Steamer from Pulmor to a can motor and get all the details (ie. cost)?