Lionel Dealer Display Layouts, Factory Layouts and Postwar Layouts

Ace, Glad you saw that thread.

 

If you, or anyone, has the track plan for the D-131, 5x9 O gauge layout and can post it here it would be very much appreciated.

Good Day Ace,

 

Sounds like a great idea. 

 

Regards,

Frank

 

Here is my D-190 re-creation:

 

A corrected version of the 1957 catalog back cover Super O layout with track requirements can be found in the October 2010 issue of CCT. The accessories used on the revised plan are different from the original,however overall it is very true to the

original.

I've always like that 1957 layout. It may be part due to the mid century modern home it's set in!!!

I'd love to see info on the 8x8 D-132 layout....it's one I'd not mind recreating. Thanks

CSXJOE,

 

Is that a 4x8? It appears to be but wanted to verify.

I find the drawing of the layout a bit humorous.  It makes it appear as if you could seamlessly drop that layout into the main floor of a 1950s house without it being obstrusive at all.  If only that was the case...

Johnstrains:

 

Yes it is 4 x 8.

 

For more info on my build, look here:

 

https://ogrforum.com/d...598#7343020862274598

 

 

And what a perfect example of the positive 1950's era. A fantastic layout with finished sides and under layout storage befitting a top line kitchen.  My buddy lives in a Mid Century Modern home in So Cal.....and yes...the layout would work perfectly in his home....but yes...it is not typical of the small 1950's ranch the vast majority of folks lived in. But this is the 'dream layout' so dream big!!

I believe this 1957 layout was the basis for the 1975 cover layout on "How to Build a Railroad Empire" I wish there was a track plan and an article on this colorful layout!

 

I found pics of a D-132 layout on an auction site and am trying to figure out the track plan. Even with three pictures from different angles, it isn't obvious how the tracks connect, which is what makes the plan more interesting.

 

 

WOW! Lionel postwar D-132 dealer Lionel train display layout, circa 1954, which measures 8 x 8 feet. The layout operates three trains on two different levels.

 

This is my reconstruction of the suspected track plan, which maybe has only a single reversing track. If someone has a different idea on this, let's see it!

 

man this is a cool track plan - now you have me reconsidering my original idea!

That one reverse loop is odd though. CSX Joe - post some more pics Nice 1583WS set on the upper level!

I think I mentioned this in the 1963 layout thread, but posting it here since it’s on topic.

 

If any forum member has the Roger Carp book, “Classic Lionel Display Layouts You Can Build” and is willing to scan and post some of the track plans, it would be very much appreciated.

 

Am kicking around several layout ideas.

Here's the one I almost built before we moved last summer - D-106

I found these on the interwebs  The trackplan is attached as a PDF

 

A Great book is Lionel Display Layouts You Can Build by Roger Carp.  It is out of print they can be found but New is about $175. It is a 96 page book that covers 23 different layouts. The D-131 is in it. Many pictures, Track plans, old adds.

DOC,

 

You must have missed my post (see just up above). Am aware of the Carp book and the fact that it's cost prohibitive.  Am hopeful a forum member might be willing to scan and post some track plans.

just thought of something -  with these old style layouts if the track is directly on plywood/painted trackbed  , how bad is the noise?   Is there anything to do to quiet them down?

Christopher,  My tinplate layout has tin track right on painted plywood (I use paint for the "ballast").  With tinplate the noise isn't bad at all. Maybe because the clackety-clack of the tinplate trains is what I hear.

 

Overall, noise isn't an issue for me.

 

Ace,

 

Pretty good interpretation of the D-132 track plan, however the track with the milk/cattle cars dead-ends in the tunnel one and a half sections in. I like your version better!

 

Peter

 

Ace - how tight would that reverse loop curve have to be?

I did not see the post before mine about the Layout book. I have the book a friend gave it to me about a year ago. I did ask where he got it but it is new. He did not want it I sure was glad to get it.

It states in the book it can not be reproduced or copied.

I was   stur-it   I build the D27 layout pictured in that post. 

A friend of mine has a D224 and a D225. Both are Very Nice. His D224 has been in CTT.

Doc, 

 

is the D-132 track plan it the book?

Yes it is. Track plan Wiring and list of Layout Components. Di32 8X8 1954  Cost $274.

Is there anyway you could at least scan the track plan & post it. Or draw it on a pc of paper.  I'm trying to figure out if I can build this with the space I'll probably have, but I need to see the actual track plan. 

Chris, I drew that previous D-132 estimate with all O31 curves. I think it would be more fun if it had reversing for both directions, although this would involve a bunch of switches in tunnels, but it would keep people guessing where the train is going to come out ...

 

Drawn with tunnels open and upper level omitted for clarity.

I will take a picture and aenr it  Email address needed.

Can you tell us if the D-132 track plan is different from this? I puzzled over the three auction house pics trying to figure it out. It appears to have only a single reversing track unless something else is hiding in the tunnels. 

 

Or maybe it's just a dead-end spur going into the tunnel, which would be kinda lame.

I believe it is a dead-end spur. Since it has the cattle and milk car platforms, that track was probably meant for permanently demonstrating those two operating cars, and not for running of a train. It was probably extended into the mountain so there would be two tracks close together over which to display the signal bridge.

 

If you have access to the December 1997 CTT, there is an article on the D-132 on page 86.

Jim Barrett from OGR has recreated Lionel display layouts. He may have even built this one. I haven't seen Jim posting here much of late but he might have some good info.

I have attached the track plan for D-132. This was the second layout I built when I got back into the hobby many years ago. I continued the dead end spur and connected it with a switch at the back of the layout. The track came out of a tunnel portal, went under the upper level truss bridge, and met the main line.

 

Mike your addition of a switch and continuing through the tunnel is a great enhancement.

 

The switch too the right on top can throw the switch too its left opposite creating an in and out figure 8. One could also add a crossing guard technology which was available at the time. This would allow 2 trains to run stopping and starting for each other at the throat created by the 2 switches.

 

One can do both by wiring the controllers with a DPDT toggle switch. One side throws the switches curve to curve straight to straight. The other side curve to straight and  straight to curve.

 

On the lower inner loop a right turnout can replace the curve on the right inside the tunnel and connect to a left turnout where the dead end was. This way with 2 trains on the lower level one can alternate inner loop train to run on new middle loop with the throat or outer loop train to alternate between outer loop and middle loop with a train running on the middle loop. With trains running on the outer and middle loops one can drop a motorized car onto the middle loop for more action.

 

A pair of 022 switches can be placed near the signal bridge to create a double crossover with the middle loop. Never tried this on a 022 switch but have seen in Standard gauge where the turnout portion of the curve is cut in half and joined with another switch cut the same way to allow for tigher track spacing.

 

A 22 1/2 cross over can connect the middle and inner loops creating a figure 8 with a throat to the outer loop.

One of the other posters had reequested the D-131 which is supposed to be a 5 X 9 layout.

 

Any chance someone can post that design up here?

 

Thanks

 

G

D-131.

 

Chris,

 

  The pdf is only showing half of one page, can you try to repost it?

 

Art

I can see the entire PDF file fine except it's sideways and you need to scroll down or resize the page to see it all. The PDF file is attached again below. Thanks for posting that, Chris!

I right clicked on the PDF and it gave a rotate option.

Thanks for the tip; I didn't know I could do that with Adobe Reader.

Guess I should have rotated it before I saved it.

Thanks for posting the D-132. I'm not sure it will work for my space, as part of whatever I build needs to sit against the wall & looks like this is more set up to walk around. Something I just thought of - How do you make the mountains ? I tend to make them look too realistic. I want as close to this look as I can get. Also, what can be used for the old school sawdust style grass? It's almost more of a challenge to build something like this than a hi rail layout

Another track plan request:

 

If anybody has the D-105 from 1953, another 5x9.  It is NOT featured in the Carp book on Dealer Displays but hoping somebody might have the plan.

 

Thanks.

link to D-105 photos

http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3136397#

Thanks for the link, I grabbed a photo off there while it's still available.

LIONEL D105 Factory Layout

1952/3 5 X 9' Layout, appears all original ... This O Gauge layout has two main-lines one on elevation, and a spur not connected to them, but separately powered. Plywood construction w/mesh supported mountains, most original wire and buss bars, track replaced with correct vintage, clean and ready to run.

Thanks guys! This is great.

What if you have the express written consent of Major League Baseball?

I drew this FasTrack variation of a D-27 to fit on a 4'x 8' layout.

Lionel D-27 style layout on YouTube

 

 

And another video of a D-27 type layout built by All Gauge Toy Train Association in San Diego. This one has really nice scenery.

 

http://www.agtta.com/anniversa...sary-videos-WMV.html 

(In the link above, click on the layout picture for the video)

 

 

What did you guys use for table surface?  Is that just something like vinyl rolled grass over plywood?

Mike thank you

The pics I posted are of an original. I found those on the Internet. I also have the same question - what to use for grass. Weather I build this one or an inspired version of a display layout, I want the look on the layout I posted. Not sure how to get it though

MichMikeM:

 

Lifelike grass paper, No. 1152, Meadow Mat Paper.  Same as used back in the fifties.

 

First painted the board with tan paint, covered it with the paper, and  then cut out the paper to reveal the tan colored streets and roadbed.  Spray glue was used to hold it down.

Christopher2035:

 

Since those photos were taken I have improved the layout by adding more accessories and scenic items.  I'll take some new pictures.  The set is my original Christmas present from 1957 hence the building of the display layout, originally from 1957 also.

 

 

 

 

Gotcha.  I thought the pics were yours.  My quick initial read of your post picked up "almost built" before you moved and I took it to mean you started it but didn't finish it.

 

Sounds like you and I are in a similar boat regarding ground cover.  Take a look at Woodland Scenics ReadyGrass(http://woodlandscenics.woodlan...GrassVinylMat/page/2).  It sounds like what you may be looking for and seems very close to what was in your pics.

 

I've seen the stuff in my LHS and it seems pretty good and not too expensive for a 50" x 100" roll (~$33).  Right now it's my top choice.  My biggest current question is should I put it over the plywood or put some type of foam down first.

MichMikeM:

 

Since I was trying to replicate a display layout as close as possible without the mess of using sawdust, the paper was the easiest and cheapest, the paper was laying unused at our club building. Half the layout is elevated so the noise generated is not too bad.  The buzzing of the crossing gates and all the other accessories drown it out.

 

funny you brought that up - I looked at that when I was thinking of building the original one.   I wonder how close that is to the sawdust.  On the layout I built for my Uncle, he used a different grass mat from scenic express, but I thought it was way to "bright"  -

 

This one looks REALLY nice!

If you can find a copy of the March 2010 issue of CTT you can see the D132 layout and a modernized version.

 

As posted above, it was originally designed for the track to dead-end in the tunnel, but extending the spur to connect on the other side made this a very operator friendly layout plan in a small space.

 

Charlie

 

Photos of a friends D-264 re-creation.

 

Interesting about that dead-end spur. I was noticing on another one of the layouts (the D-105 up above) that there is a spur/siding for the milk and cattle cars that is not connected to either of the loops and apparently dead-ends inside the mountain!  At least that's the way it appears.

 

The 105 is one of the layouts I'm considering so I'd have to weigh whether to go with it as is or modify the track plan.

Track plan for the D-264 Super-O layout pictured above. Thanks for those photos, Mike.

 

These were display layouts so spurs were setup to demonstrate operating cars and accessories. The cars weren't ment to be moved so the "dummy" mainline/double tracks were used for scenic interest (like to show the 450 signal bridge). Also, a lot of times the spurs that were connected to main tracks werent powered directly. The D-131 posted above used a manual switch and there was a insulated pin in the center rail preventing a direct movement into the spur. Some modifications to the plan are necessary for making these more operator-friendly.

 

Also, one note on the D-27 Fastrack plan. The down grade is very steep and i recall from the CTT article that the track on the start of the grade had to be physically bent downward to have a smooth transition. Care would have to be taken that a smooth transition can be made because you can't bend Fastrack like that. Use of transition tracks and a piece of tubular may be necessary in that location.

 

Peter

Thanks Peter, interesting points there. I don't completely understand which layouts were made only for dealer displays and which were specifically for retail sale. The Lionel layouts typically allow unattended operation of two or more trains, and accessories for operating cars. It's curious that they made some tracks dead-ending in tunnels for scenic effect rather than for train operation.

 

The D-27 layout has a downgrade of about 6% and short upgrade of 10%, apparently intended for operation in one direction. I saw an instruction sheet online (not very clear) which appears to maybe have different voltages applied to different sections of the track for speed management. The downgrade section helps push a longer train through the steep upgrade, possibly a good trick to use on other layouts.

One item I did notice building the display, all the accessories are arranged so there is a clear viewpath if you are standing in front of the layout, one accessory does not block out another.  I believe this is the case for all the display layouts.

 

Clever marketing concept by Lionel's display layout designers.

What have you guys been using/ what would you use for the postwar style grass?

I have used a couple different methods for the grass.

 

1) I put sawdust in plastic zip-lock bags, then mixed some Rit dye and poured it in the bags. I sealed the bags and then kind of tipped them around until all the saw dust was dyed. I then spread it out on a plastic sheet and dried it under a heat lamp. It worked, but was time consuming and messy.

 

2) The next time, I just painted the plywood and sprinkled on sawdust while the paint was wet. This was much easier and came out reasonably well.

do you think something like this would work - http://woodlandscenics.woodlan...GrassVinylMat/page/2). 

I'm pretty sure that Kevin Coyle (whose layout we were all admiring in another thread) used method #1 to do his grass. Also recall him saying that it was, indeed, time consuming and messy.

Christopher - I used the WS vinyl mat on my current layout. It has some advantages in that you can mark-off where the roadbed and roads would go, and then take a putty knife and scrape off the ground cover. You can then paint the vinyl mat where the ground cover was removed. Having said that, the WS vinyl mat has the same appearance as their ground foam.

someone needs to make a retro ground foam

 

I can't imagine doing it  w. the zip-loc bag way  on my whole layout.  That would take forever.    The WS mat may be the best way to go

I used Lifelike grass paper, No. 1152, Meadow Mat Paper.  Same as used back in the fifties.

Saw this on an auction site:

Lionel factory layout elevation 

 

And a prewar factory layout:

 

Scarce LIONEL Factory Layout 1066E:

Circa 1935, debuting the 1700 Streamliner.  44 X 30" Table Top Layout including 913 Landscaped Bungalow, missing 2 trees, hedges worn; Scarce 4 separate-sale trees; Tunnel shrunk a bit with age, 48W Whistling Station(instead of Transformer station); Track; 1700 Diesel; 1701 Coach & 1702 Obsv., Has original vintage hand painted background panel, all show playwear, but scarce early display!

 

The grass on your layout looks slightly darker than the ones on the Lionel Display layouts.  Could just be the flash on the camera though.   Your post reminded me of something - the 4x8 layout I had as a kid w/ my Dad's postwar trains used a grass mat - pretty sure it was Life Like.   I guess they still make it?

 

Side note - I noticed you go to OCSMR - Do you know Kevin Burkitt?

which version of this did you use - http://www.walthers.com/exec/productinfo/433-1007

Christopher2035:

 

Yes, I do know Kevin, a good guy.

 

The Lionel display units used sawdust, not grass paper.  I was too lazy to mess around with the loose sawdust and glue/paint.

 

The reason the paper looks darker is that all the pictures of display layouts are at least 50 years old and the "grass" has faded

 

 

Kevin is a good friend of mine - gone on many railfan trips together   He's even brought me down to the club a few times when I live in NJ.

 

I don't think I could mess w/ the sawdust/paint thing either -  that's why I was thinking about the grass mat.    I never thought about the fact that the ones we are looking at now are faded

I always thought the D-63 display was  really cool, with the operating elevated highway through the city-scape to the mountain, and the two train operation with relays.

 

 

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/KnDjL4_iEC4" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

That might violate copyright laws

I checked the Roger Carp book out of the Indianapolis Public Library. You might want to check your local library to see if they have it.

 

Steve

The golfer's name is Ed Dougherty, I believe.

 

Steve

If people can post photos of some of these layouts, some of us might be able to redraw the track plans to show here. Some old layouts show up on auction sites occasionally and I try to grab the pics while they are available.

I just picked up the Carp book last night on eBay for a really good price. 

I would be happy to scan & email anyone a track plan once I get the book - I would assume next week

Hi Folks, 

 

    Really love the moving cars, buses, and trucks on the highway.  I can hear some sort of squeaking, possibly from pulleys?  Does anyone know how that effect was achieved?  Bicycle chain under the road surface? -- did I read that somewhere before?  Thanks!

 

Take care, Joe.

True, and I thought about this after I posted. I think getting the various plans posted here (and not necessarily from the book) isn't going to be a problem. Between guys like the always helpful Ace, and some others, many of the plans have already appeared. 

Nice!  Darn, I didn't even think about eBay (slapping forehead).  I may take you up on your offer, Christopher.  

Another link to some good info on a D-264-

 

http://rztrains.com/D264_Details.htm

 

More from the web-

 

 

D-224 (Thanks DOC for ID)

 

 

D-264

 

 

D-289

 

 

 

D-289

 

Repro D-148

 

 

 

 

D-146

 

D-132

 

 

Lionel 10M  (is the number correct?)

Lionel D-???? (Need help in ID'ing)

 

Modified D-225

 

173S

 

 

Beat up D-190

 

 

D-106

 

 

D-133

6-3007 (Modern era)

 

 

 

D-290

 

 

That's all I can find.  Numbers verified by Carp's book.

CSXJOE  That first picture is a D224. Looks just like a friends of mine . He also has a D225.

You mean the elevated highway on the D-63 layout? I think its some sort of chain mechanism, although I'm not sure how they achieved the effect. I found the vid while surfing youtube.... Maybe somebody with more knowledge than I can post details about it?

The D-146 & D-190 would have to be my faves out of that group

Hi Pennsy Fan, 

 

    Thanks for info!  (I should have mentioned the D-63 layout in my question.)  Thanks for posting the links to all the videos.  I imagine that O scale die cast cars with AAA battery operated LED headlights would be a great effect on that moving highway.  I guess a heavy chain could handle the weight.  Those light-weight plastic cars would put much less stress on the mechanism as compared to several die cast vehicles.

 

Take care, Joe.

I've seen the injection molded plastic one from time to time at York and Allentown. I'm not sure what the item number is. They usually are not nearly as expensive as the postwar ones.

I concur! I believe he has turned to layouts as the focus of his collecting.

Hi Folks,

 

    I just found this about the elevated highway mechanism: http://cs.trains.com/ctt/f/95/t/209631.aspx  (2nd to last post)  Seems like a great technique!

 

Take care, Joe.

 

 

As far as the layout book is concerned, I E-mailed Roger Carp and he replied

 

"Right now, there are no plans to reprint or update
my book on Lionel displays."

 

I wonder how much of the book is actually in the public domain? I have the phone number for John at East Coast and I'll see if he bought the rights from Kalmbach when he bought the old Greenberg Book Store.

Trainman9:

 

I verified on the official U. S. copywrite webpage that the copywrite is still held by Kalmbach.

Yes, but did you check the US CopyRIGHT page?

 

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Guess John got some of the rights to re-print books but perhaps none related to Carp.

 

I've never read the book but it seems to me that the original display designs belonged to Lionel Corporation in its various re-incarnations. Without actually seeing the contents of the book itself it is fair to say that Carp simply compiled the information and unless he did some of the design work it is the original Lionel design that he used. I know that Ed Doughty was given mention as one of the contributors.

 

Does anyone know if Carp did any original work for the book other than just research.

 

Lastly, if this book is so popular why doesn't Kalmbach simply re-print it.

It arrived today !!

 

Here are a few more pics I found on my laptop HD - 

 

D-1601

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

D-291 - 

 

 

D-261 

D-224

D-222

 

D-148

 

D-133

 

Christopher,  are these all your sets or do you know who owns all these Lionel display sets.  Pretty neat layouts.  Nick

Nick - I wish these were mine!   Just photos I collected off the internet a while back for research as I was planning to build one

Christopher, you should have saw how that D-148 started out. It was in sad sad shape before the man who shot those photos refurbished it. If you're really looking to get to know how to build a Postwar Dealer tribute layout it might be worth your while to try and make friends with this gentleman. He has gone to great lengths to study correct mountain materials, find correct paints which are available in today's market, etc. His Ebay handle is HiRailFarms. Might be worth shooting him a message and letting him know what you are working on. 

Christopher, great pictures!!

 

One question, on one of the pictures showing a control panel there are two white switches with orange buttons.  Do you know what kind of switches they are and what accessories they operate?

 

Thanks

 

George

#91 Lionel adjustable circuit breaker  1957 - 1960  (at top center)

 

 

http://www.tandem-associates.c...el_trains_91_acc.htm

beat me to it Ace!

That's a good idea - I checked on eBay & there are 2 users with that name. Do you happen to know which one it is?

I asked Roger Carp since Kalmbach was not planning to re-issue the book, would they entertain the option of scanning it and offering it as an E-book. 

 

His reply was :

 

"I'm sorry but Kalmbach has not made that option available."

 

That is as far as I can go so good luck on E bay or-

 

He did have some copies available for sale.  You can contact him at his E-mail listed in CCT.

Christopher, Glad you got the Carp book.

 

If you would be willing to scan and email a couple of the track plans it would be greatly appreciated.

 

I'm interested in two of the 5x9 O gauge plans, D-147 and D-164.

 

Email is: jjdjsweet@comcast.net

 

Thank you!

Looked for but could not find his e-mail address. Did he say what he was selling copies for?

No problem.  I can scan them tomorrow at work & send them to you when I get home.

I'll probably use PDF format - does that work for you?

Trainman9:

 

Any new issue of CCT has it on the staff listing page.

 

 

Sure, PDF would be fine.

 

Again, thanks much for doing this!

I sent the email out w/ the 2 PDFs
Let me know when you get them

Another thing I just thought of -  Were all the display layouts painted green around the edges?   If so, what would be a good color match?   I was thinking of doing mine gray along with the shelves under the board.

Anybody know what happened to this site?

 

http://www.lionellines.com/displays.html

Was wondering that myself. In my travels around the ‘Net looking for Dealer Display pics and plans, I kept seeing that site referenced only to find a dead link.

Christopher2035:

 

I found a paint in a spray can at either Lowes or Home Depot that is a close match.  Compare my D-190 recreation to some of the original layouts photos (especially the D-133).  When I get home, I'll post the manufacturer and catalog number.

 

 

The paint that closely matches the original wood paint IMHO is Rustoleum Satin #7737 Spruce Green.

 

Thanks for getting back to me on that.   Do you know if anything would be available in a non spray format?  I think that may be better to paint the boards with

Christopher2035:

 

The spraying operation was not bad at all.  Two coats, no primer.

 

You could either spray a test shot out of the can or maybe use a paint chip sample and have HD or Lowes computer match it for brush-on paint.

 

The spray gives a nice finish with no brush marks.

Did find his e-mail address in CTT. He has a few copies available at $100.oo each.

Checked into the site that had all the display layout designs. My guess is that internet address lionellines.com infringed on Lionel's copyrights and it was taken down. Maybe at some point it will reappear under a different location unless the site itself violated some kind of copyright.

 

My guess is that the original Lionel Dealer Display plans are no longer covered by a copyright but the publication by Kalmbach is.

This is my own idea for an 8'x 8' display layout to run three trains. Lionel never did "easements" on their plans with O31 curves, which is something I favor for better operation and appearance. Instead of copying the old plans exactly, why don't we think up some new ideas along similar lines?

 

Using non-derailing switches, if switches A and B are set for the curved route, a train will "random-route" itself on the inner mainline. Switches A and D would need to be the newer style with smaller switch machines; O22 switches probably wouldn't fit. SCARM file attached.

I've modified the previous plan with wider curves on the outer circuits.

 

Ace-  Great layout work as usual.  Have you ever thought of a website housing all your designs?  Could be a small moneymaker with ads (use Google AdSense).  I suspect you'd generate decent traffic from people searching "O Gauge Layouts." 

MichMikeM, Thank You for the comment. I consider my contributions to the forums as a return payment for the camaraderie from other forum members, in terms of information and friendly feedback and occasionally material generosity. If other people like my track plans well enough to actually build them, I enjoy seeing photos of the results.

Ace,

 

On the 8'x8' layout, if you used the disappearing layout technique, you could make the curves on the reverse loop with larger diameter (under the two main loops.)

Great thread.

 

 

John.

I believe I saved this from another post here on the forum. The layout intrigued me and looked like a lot of fun. I haven't finished converting it to FasTrack in SCARM yet.

 

 

Just my opinion, but that layout seems like all sizzle and no steak.  The 3 crossovers don't give you much functionality.  For all those track pieces, crossovers, and switches, the layout doesn't reverse.  In that space and amount of track, one could do much better.