Lionel Development

I think the comment comes from people who don the sackcloth and ashes when the latest catalog doesn't have what they want.

 

Rusty

Your understanding is pretty much correct

The truth is none of the manufacturers are sinking the money into new tooling etc that they were a few years ago. Sure changes are being made and research is still going on, but you are not going to see the huge changes of several years back. Hopefully as the economy continues to improve (DOW is back up) more R&D money will be available

After all, the first Lionel/Flyer catalog DIDN'T say a word about DCC compatibility in the first run of SD70's...

 

Rusty

Rusty, I agree. Today, companies cannot develop and produce items that are designed to satisfy a minority of S gaugers. Items that are produced are aimed at the majority of S gauge consumers. After all, they are trying to make a profit, and that usually comes from quantity. Producing an item that will appeal to 10% of overall consumers is financially unwise. Convert & modify is the way to go for those few.

 

Rich 

 

Obviously this was directed at my comment so I will address it.

 

I was merely stating an observable fact in regard to Lionel S offerings. I have no insight into Lionel R&D, but it doesn't take a rocket scientist to see that they have backed off of their initial push in S. An objective observer would clearly see this.

 

To my knowledge they have delivered 1 new product this year. The SD-70. They are coming up on 2 years since the turnout was announced and it hasn't seen the light of day yet. The new Berkshire that was announced in Feb. hasn't even been shown in prototype form as far as I know. In fact none of the Berkshire sets even have an ETA date yet 10 months after their announcement. There has been no new scale steam since the Y3 which can be found on blowout recently just as the Challengers before it were. The newly tooled ES4400 looks nice, but isn't even being offered in a non-fantasy road name.  With no emotional attachment I think it is safe to say that the announcements as well as releases have slowed down. There is probably a good reason for that. If they are blowing out brand new engines that are as fine as the Y3, then they either made too many or didn't sell enough. My opinion would be the latter.

 

For someone who has been in S for decades this may be perfectly acceptable, but speaking for myself as a relative newcomer over the past couple years to S this just won't cut it. This is far beyond a disappointment with a particular catalog. This speaks to the general pace of S. As a model railroader with 36 years into the hobby in various scales I can say that this issue is unique to S.  Again, that may be fine for some. For me the "accelerated" pace was barely tolerable and the current state just won't cut it. I would like the option to add a new engine or piece of rolling stock more  frequently than every year or two. And I would actually like to purchase particular engines that I like. I know that is heresy in S, but... Or maybe actually be able to use their track system? Can't build layouts without turnouts.

 

Obviously my own opinions aren't important to anyone other than myself, but I still stand by my observation that they have backed off on development because they have backed off on announcements and deliveries. Since the three are related I think we can infer that they have indeed backed off on development. I sincerely hope that I am wrong, but I would be absolutely shocked to see much in the way of new product in the new catalog. I have been buying Lionel O gauge trains for a long time. I am very familiar with how they work. The writing is on the wall. This is the pace we should expect going forward.

 

As far as the biblical reference to "sackcloth and ashes" go by Rich, all I can say that as a believer myself I wouldn't compare anything to do with toys to a ritual performed by people in ancient times to mourn or repent in times of strife and disaster. That isn't appropriate in my opinion.

First point: well taken.

Second point: I don't think that as a "believer" one should take offense to that comment. 

 

Mark in Oregon

Sorry, I think it's an appropriate reference particularly seeing how some on the 3-rail side carry on when catalogs appear.  Plus, I read Ed's comment as a question about Lionel in general, not just the Flyer side.

 

As far as new development for the the Flyer line goes,  I'm also pretty disappointed how things are progressing.  I don't know if the NS Heritage stuff sucked up all of the oxygen or what, but you can't grow any scale with just one new product delivery.  Even the cylindrical hoppers are taking forever.  I think it also took about 2 years for the traditional Flyer Texas Special PA's.

 

That's not a formula for success these days.

 

The ONLY bright spot as far as I'm concerned was the relative quickness in the adoption of DCC compatibility in the SD70's.

 

Yeah, us old S f*arts are used to delays and broken promises, as it were, but it doesn't make it any easier.  Things were moving along pretty well, not a well as in O gauge but still pretty well in the early 2000's, until Sanda Kan fired their customers.

 

Practically since I started in S, I've wanted to see it become less of an exclusive club ("Aquired taste" is the phrase I use when I'm feeling pompus and self important...) and more open to newcomers.  For too long S Scale has held on to the "scratchbuilders scale" mantra.  If S Scale grows (as O scale has) by the expansion of the Flyer (or ahem... toy train interests,) so much the better.

 

I agree with your comments about track.  Trains are useless without tracks and integrated track/roadbed systems are the best way to get new folks now.  MTH says S-Trax is on the water, whether it's the full previous SHS selection or just 20" radius and 10" straights, I don't know.

 

I was hoping the entry of MTH into S would get things moving faster, but that doesn't appear to be the case right now.

 

Believe me, it was hard to promote S when times were good, it's even harder now.

 

Rusty

Good Morning Mark. I hope you are having a fantastic day.

 

Just to clarify, I didn't say I was offended. I said that I didn't think it was appropriate. It takes a lot more than that to offend me. Even if I was offended it wouldn't be the first time. As a believer I am used to it. 

 

Regards,

Jonathan

Ok,fair enough.

Happy Holidays.

 

Mark in Oregon

I think we are about three months away from getting some answers to a few of these questions.  The new flyer catalog is supposed to be out by early February, I would also think that the new MTH one will be out by then too. 

I don't know if the blowout sales of some of the S gauge pieces are any real indication of a general status of S gauge, I see more of the same blow out sales with Lionel's O gauge than I do S.

I do think (wishful thinking maybe) that much of Lionel's dedicated S resources were devoted to the NS heritage stuff, it really is A LOT of product if you think about it. I hope this accounts for the lack of non NS related items in the 2013 catalog.  I do not do much with eastern railroads so none of the NS stuff was appealing to me (unlike finishing the UP heritage SD70s would be!).

The delays are disappointing, I am planning on using AM track for my future layout because I can not even consider using AF fastrack for the obvious reasons.  It is not all doom and gloom though, I think the Y3 from announcement to delivery was a year?

I can only hope that MTH really turns up the heat here soon on everything

Ben

"biblical reference to "sackcloth and ashes"? Since I am the only Rich to have commented in this thread, I have no idea where the interpretation of this came from. I merely stated that large manufacturers produce what the many want, not the few. Small manufacturers have been producing scale models for years but usually on a preorder basis. Having been in S gauge for 40 odd years, I have conversed many times over the years with personnel and dealers from American Models, S Helper and Lionel. All have said that the sale of scale items in a particular model is in the 10% range. We are all lucky that these manufacturers are currently producing realistic looking models albeit in Hi-rail form. All are excellent material for detailed scale conversion, better than traditional AF.

 

S gauge will never approach the popularity of O gauge. At train shows the tables of hi-rail O gauge outnumber S by at least  to 20 to 1 if not more. Only at specialty meets do these numbers vary, IE: NASG and scale only meets. At York it is even tough to find HO scale. The numbers are even more exagerated between hi-rail and scale.

 

I do believe Lionel has been consumed by the heritage series. The multiples of roadnames and production of 2 new modern diesels seem to be all they can handle. I think if one looks back at yearly S catalogs, there are only 1 or maybe 2 new motive introductions per year, and that is probably what the future will bring. There is no excuse for the lack or variety of track production, unless the switches are destined to be Legacy controlled. Lionel will continue with the traditional line, either reviving Flyer classics or developing new comparable in detail models. The scale looking line will probably continue but probably with emphasis on hi-rail wheels and couplers.

 

I was told that the delays between introduction and production are largely due to the fact of independant overseas production, engineering changes in products between CONUS and Asia and accompaning labor trouble in China. I tend to believe more in the engineering changes and the disconnect between CONUS and China. For example the MKT Alco PA's evoloution from TMCC to Legacy, Defender set operating cars and packaging.

 

Even with all these problems, things are vastly better (and more expensive) than the past, and for that I am gratefull. Sorry of I offended anyone.

 

Rich

The "sackcloth and ashes" was my comment, and I hear tell my evil twin's name is Rich.

 

It a companion piece to "wailing and gnashing of keyboards..," a phrase that both of us are also known to use on this and other train forums.

 

Rusty

So, what's the problem with sackcloth and ashes?  The post looks most appropriate to me in reference to a disappointing catalog.

 

Tom Stoltz

in Maine

I think its safe to say that most companies have scaled back over the recent years.

>> Bob Bubeck wrote: 

Lionel has promised the scale flange option for the new (i.e., non-Gilbert non-traditional) stuff going forward (U33 and after) and has delivered on that promise to date. <snip>  Scale <snip> will be available in some fashion on the modern newly tooled rolling stock.

 

Bob.......Could you point me toward that Lionel promise?  When/where was it stated and by whom?  Thanks.......Ed L.

 

 

 

The promise for the scale flange option by some means has been on a catalog-to-catalog basis for the: U33c, SD70ACe, Y3a (uncataloged modification option by a second party arranged by Lionel), ES44AC (to be in January 2014), and the cylindrical hoppers (in early 2014). Both Remy Convery and Matt Ashba have voiced the intent of Lionel to continue to do so in conversations at York. The SD70's and ES44's are DCC capable right out other box. All of this is no guarantee in perpetuity, but the guys have done pretty well in recent times for addressing the desires of the scale crowd in the all-new product so far. 

 

Hope this helps.

 

Bob

Threrein lies part of the confusion issue.

 

While Flyer enthusiasts may flock to York in droves, it's is not exactly "S Scale Central." 

 

These gentlemen (or their effective represntatives) need to make an appearance at the NASG conventions, where the scale contingent is better represented.  Maybe even do a seminar addressing the S Scaler's want's and desires.

 

Rusty

Sounds to me like a casual conversation rather than a corporate promise by Lionel.  It is fun to read between the lines and hope for what you want.  I don't see anything that resembles a promise to do scale wheels for all new things going forward.  Maybe I will be pleasantly surprised and I truly hope so. 

Ed L.

And, some just like to kvetch. 

 

Bob

Let's not forget, it took the SD70ACe to finally convince most scalers that Lionel was serious about catering to the scale side. Even then, it took some work to get them to look at it. (I still have the scars to prove it...)

 

The U33C was somewhat convincing, but not completely.  Many scalers just can't get past the Lionel style floating pilot (especially) and the lack of DCC compatibility (less so) on the U33C.

 

That's why some of us (OK, me and Ed mostly...) are very concerned about clarity with the wheel issue. 

 

I guess we'll have more reasons to either rejoice or kvetch after the next catalog comes out.

 

Rusty

Kvetcher-at-large.

Not kvetching (complaining) at all.  Just attempting to sort out fact from rumor regarding scale wheels.  No harm in that.  Ed L.

Well Ed, I just checked the 2013 catalog(something I can't do at work...) and there is a friendly banner at the bottom of the page settling the wheel issue, at least for the SD's and ES's for now:

 

But, Ill add a kvetch anyway... 

 

Now that the wheels are in stock, Lionel could have at least mentioned it, along with a part number and price info on their Flyer Facebook page. (The last update was October 3!)

 

Rusty

Please pass the kvetchup.

If you can read that banner, you're a better man than I.

Art,

Do what I do.  If you have a PC, hit the Ctrl key and the plus (+) sign.  That will enlarge the screen.  Ctrl plus the minus sign (-) will shrink the page, and Ctrl and the zero (0) will restore the screen after any alterations to size. 

 

Jerry

 

Well, as I posted, it is promised in the 2013 catalog. The bottom of page 16 in large font. And, Lionel has been following through.

 

Bob

Relishing the kvetchup.

It looks much clearer on Lionel's website, where these images came from(and oddly enough, in the hard copy catalog...) plus if you right click on the picture, a larger image is displayed.

 

Rusty

Gents....

 

Yes, both the 2012 and 2013 catalogs do state scale wheels will be available for certain specified products.  No doubt about it.  In a yellow banner, no less. 

 

But I do not see where in the catalog it states:  "Lionel has promised the scale flange option for the new (i.e., non-Gilbert non-traditional) stuff going forward"  as asserted earlier.

 

Can I use some of that kvetchup to eat perhaps one-half of a crow?  The other half of the crow is still waiting to find that corporate promise for all new stuff going forward. 

 

To me, that alleged promise is well hidden, but getting scale wheels on a car-by-car basis or a loco-by-loco basis is just fine.  No complaints there.   As Rusty said, having the part number in the catalog would save an immense amount of anguish and frustration.  Not to mention having correct responses to emails and phone calls asking the obvious questions about how to obtain the scale wheels.  Hopefully, those days are behind us.

 

With regard to the cylindrical hoppers, the catalog text denotes "scale wheels" which is fine for the likes of Rusty and me.  But nowhere does the catalog say that AF wheels may be purchased separately for this car.  If I was an AF enthusiast, I would be wondering about that big time.

 

"S"lurping some kvetchup with half a crow............and smiling......Ed L.

I talked with important guys at MTH and Lionel but I will not drop names.  They tell me Scale Guys are only a fraction of the 2 and 3 rail market (less that 15%).  Neither company can design and produce for this small market and make any money.  So in the future look for scale products from them to be adapted high rail where they make their money.

 

Lionel's biggest money maker of all t

ime is the Polar Express series.  That is why it is coming out in Flyer next year.  Scale guys are going to hate the Berkshire products around the Polar series.  Lionel won't care.

As much as I dislike it, I have to agree with you on everything you said except scale only being important to 15% of 3 railers. The past 2 decades of products clearly prove that isn't true. The vast majority of new products have been scale products. They wouldn't be making them if only 15% of the customers wanted them.

 

I came to S from O. I hate the 3rd rail and I saw S as a way to get O scale junior but on 2 rail track. So even though I would prefer big HO, I will settle for little O if that makes sense. I am willing to live with the compromises that exist like pivoting pilots, etc.

to get the goodies like Legacy and RailSounds. The fact that they have made scale wheels and couplers available is nothing short of amazing considering people in O have been asking for those features for decades and never received them. I never expected Lionel to do as much to accommodate the scale crowd and I'm thankful for it.

 

My problem is that the pace of development is so slow that it is very difficult for someone coming from O to get started in S.  Some day S may be a viable option for me. For now I'm just going to acquire new items as they come out that interest me in the hopes that they will eventually have enough product to build a railroad. And they seriously need to complete the track system. Why that wasn't the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd priority I will never understand.

 

Each catalog gives us another piece of the puzzle. How much newly tooled product will we see, if any? I think that will be a barometer of whether they have indeed scaled back or not.

You misunderstand us. 

 

We're not asking for 100% scale-only products from Lionel or MTH.  That's what small companies like Smoky Mountain Model Works, Kaslo, S Scale America and River Raisin are for.

 

All we are asking is that Lionel and MTH "talk to us" and see where the common ground is.  They really need to send reps to the NASG conventions, where there is a much better scale presence as opposed to York.  Plus, there's no 3-rail talk to distract them.

 

We've been quite happy (well, most of us anyway) with how American Models and the former S-Helper Service marketed their products to the scale crowd.  Scale wheels and Kadee mounting pads go a long way.  Even Lionel's "swinging pilot" on the SD70's and ES44's are a much better idea than a huge gaping hole in the pilot.

 

As far as the Polar Express goes, if Lionel does the tooling right, we could see a scalified Berkshire out of it.  If not, well them's the breaks.  Seeing the catalog illustrations are a kluge of O27 and S images with a dash of Photoshop thrown in, we won't have a clue until some of the castings or pilot models show up.

 

Rusty

 

While visiting the Lionel booth at York (Sorry, I attend religiously and enjoy it greatly ), I asked Matt Ashba about the Berk and he replied at that time in October that it is intended to make it scale-proportioned (both engine and tender) but with little added detail in the manner that Gilbert practiced. In this way, a more detailed and fuller featured (presumably hi-rail) Berk could be made later using the underlying die castings, if so desired. Logical. It is not so much that Lionel 'doesn't care', but rather that the Berk sets are intended to be affordable entry sets aimed at the traditional crowd.

 

As Rusty suggests, we'll see.

 

Bob

That's kinda the approach I'm hoping to see.

 

(BTW, I have no interest in the Polar Express, but am interested in the NKP freight set.)

 

Rusty

I think maybe Bill meant that the 15% was for scale proportions and features including couplers and flanges. The large manufacturers today seem to be shifting to the scale proportion look with hi-rail couplers and flanges, which is great for the true scalers as it only requires wheel and coupler changes to be in the ballpark. The vast majority of S scalers I know will not even touch AM, SHS or the scale proportioned Lionel. Since most only operate their AF trains using transformers, and the AM and SHS gearing, along with Lionel Legacy operation in conventional mode, does nothing to impress them, as much as I might try. The scale proportioned/hi-rail demand seems to be coming from a larger middle group. Personally I think the scale proportioned offerings look realistic and run great on my AM rail, along with my traditional Flyer.

 

Rich

That might be ok. After all, the Gilbert post-war steamers certainly had the "flavor" of the actual engines they were modeled after. And a Berk might be kind of cool...

 

Mark in Oregon

>> Rusty writ:  Scale Guys are only a fraction of the (O gauge) 2 and 3 rail market (less than 15%).  Neither company can design and produce for this small market and make any money.

 

Speaking of O scale/gauge (2/3 rail), I have attended several O scale conventions and traipsed around to one trading table after another.  One of the more interesting observations (and there were many), is that a few fellows appear to be making a living by taking O gauge Lionel freight cars, removing and discarding the trucks, installing ATLAS O scale trucks and selling the cars as a RTR scale product.  I have seen literally hundreds of these cars stacked up high on tables ready to be purchased.  I am sure they have found enough profit in that to make it worth their time.

 

So..............all that profit could flow into the Lionel cash register if Lionel made scale wheels to be swapped in as the huge-flanged wheels get swapped out.  Selling freight car wheels at $3 per axle has to be a high profit margin product.  Why should ATLAS O get all that money?

 

Just thinking.....Ed L. 

And MTH seems to have no problem cataloging and selling O scale two rail wheelsets, trucks plus select Premier O locomotives with scale wheels.

 

Rusty