Lionel GG1 JLC (not "Legacy) truck restoration in brass.

Here is a link to the original thread in O-27:

https://ogrforum.com/...-sideframes-zinc-rot

I note that we are talking about JLC GG1s, not "Legacy" GG1s.  I will try to change the title.

Dean Brasseur says that the JLC mold was modified for the "Legacy" and that is why there will be no more castings.  That may put this problem in an entirely new light.  Suppose the Legacy casting actually fits?  I will ask.

Bob, assuming the end result isn't priced too high, I'd commit to two sets.

If the Legacy casting doesn't fit, it might be able to be made to fit, that would be a lot simpler.

Has anyone put the Legacy and JLC  sideframes together to get a comparison. If it's close to scale there shouldn't be much size difference. Maybe there wont be much to do if you recast the Legacy to fit JLC.

When I got stuck with two $450 paperweights, I contacted Mike Reagan to see if he knew of any sources.  He confirmed that the castings were changed and he learned the hard way that the Legacy truck frames are not interchangeable with the TMCC ones.  I'm not sure how far off they might be, but I was able to locate a couple from a forum member and never looked into it any further.

While mine are currently in good shape thanks to the new parts, I'm not fully convinced that they won't fall apart at some point in the future also, so I'd be interested in this project if it makes its way to completion just to have some spares.  I don't like the idea of being stuck with two beautiful but useless locomotives should the trucks fall apart again.

I have a silver one in a box and hadn't taken it out. Kind of scared. LOL

We will figure this out.  Bob Stevenson has a preliminary guess at $270 per locomotive, based on new molds.  But the molds themselves will be expensive; it will take 1/2 gallon of liquid rubber,and that stuff is $230 per gallon!

I am trying to get my hands on a Legacy part.  I will know more on that early next week - or if you have a connection with Mike, see if he could send a casting?  If they modified it, perhaps we could modify it back?

Let me get a few photos posted - one idea is to use Wolfer truck sides and the Lionel tongue and bolster. For that, all I would need is a "bowed, but not crumbling" casting.

And photos.  Note the interface of castings on the Wolfer part.  Also note that the wheelbase and overall lengths are identical, although the Wolfer casting seems beefier.  The interior space is identical, which says to me that one can simply put Wolfer trucks under a JLC GG1 and be done with it.  The  reduced flexibility will be negligible, I think, but at least you would have a display model.

I am trying not to repeat myself - Bob's idea is to split the casting down the middle, cast the brass in two parts, and then solder and paint(!).  He would need to do one set to really nail down the price.  My thought is that the Wolfer sides could be mated to the Lionel ends - I think I am repeating myself - to reduce initial mold costs.

Herewith (and wow! to the programmers who set up the enhancement routines):

Bob, I know curiosity killed the cat, .....it looks like as you mentioned, the Wolfer castings could be used almost as is with a couple of brackets made from sheet metal to mount it to the power truck, then it’s just a matter of mounting the pilot truck to the Wolfer casting....and figuring out the  couplers .....being that the Wolfer casting already exists,  what might the cost be to just produce the Wolfer casting and just adapt to the Lionel .......thanks for looking into all of this! .....you’ve done a lot already!............Pat

I'm the one who started this whole thing and I am in for THREE sets.

I am hoping they will be a bolt-on with no machining required.

I can paint them myself.

That would be best.

If you adapted the Wolfer truck in its entirety I suggest that you make the GG1 a display item.  I will get a price for that option.  Some assembly required.

The neat thing is, you may have a choice!

But let's wait and see if we can un- modify a Legacy truck.

bob2 posted:

That would be best.

If you adapted the Wolfer truck in its entirety I suggest that you make the GG1 a display item.  I will get a price for that option.  Some assembly required.

The neat thing is, you may have a choice!

But let's wait and see if we can un- modify a Legacy truck.

Very cool, thanks for looking into this!

Heard from Dean Brasseur again.  I had asked to buy a Legacy part to see if it could be modified back.  Here is his response:

I am sorry, the Vision truck sides will not fit on these.

So, Lionel is not your solution.  They have in effect washed their hands of this, but have no heartburn with us copying the JLC part.

Next step: I need to get my mitts on one of these castings that can be cut.  One that is warping slightly but not crumbling would be best.  Bob Stevenson is ready to make molds and do a "proof of concept" cast.

Nobody volunteered a bowed casting for a trial run.  I will be returning Robert's perfect casting this week.  I still stand ready to help - I suppose Summer barbeque and boating have stolen our enthusiasm?

You know where I can be found.

I’ve tried to stir up one for you Bob.....I couldn’t get my hands on one...🙄......did you ever find out about the cost of the existing Wolfer/ Duddy castings ?........thanks ...................Pat

I only have a perfect one, and both of the people that I know that we'd like to get them for have castings that are already in pieces, I figured that wasn't going to solve the problem.  I don't have any interest in taking apart my perfect one to have castings cut up for molding, so unless another one surfaces for me, I don't know how I can help.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

I only have a perfect one, and both of the people that I know that we'd like to get them for have castings that are already in pieces, I figured that wasn't going to solve the problem.  I don't have any interest in taking apart my perfect one to have castings cut up for molding, so unless another one surfaces for me, I don't know how I can help.

About 2 weeks ago I sent a pristine part for bob2 to use for a mold to make the new Power Truck Side Frame with Pilot but he decided that the part was too perfect to be cut up for a mold to be made.  I was willing to sacrifice a perfectly good part so that new parts could be made that would benefit a whole bunch of people.  Surely someone has a bowed but complete part that they can send to move this project forward.  Someone else needs to "step-up" as I did or there's gonna be more "shelf queens" in the future!

Chief Bob (Retired)  

I know this would be a silly question........ but in this day and age would a 3-D cad drawing not exist on Lionel's engineering Dept. Server....... If so they could easily create a STL file and upload it to a 3-D printing service like Shapeways and sell outdated parts in that manor, But what do I know I am only a tool & die designer by trade and have been working with 3-D cad software or almost 20 years.

Mike - you are way out of my league.  I only know lost wax, and even then only enough to get somebody else to do the investment and pour metal.  Cutting Bob's perfect casting was not even discussed - we agreed I would return it intact.  It would kill me to cut it, then find out that the entire process would be too expensive to be viable.  I have not yet packed it for shipment - I will wait until next week.

No word on the cost of the complete Wolfer truck cost.  I don't want to become a pest.  Bob Stevenson is ready to make molds and cast the first set of the Lionel part.  We have not finished our discussion on two piece vs. four piece.  He is the expert, but I foresee problems with the two piece approach.

But hey - if the state of the art is such that a 3D printer can duplicate this casting in wax, that is a non-destructive approach, and we can surely cast that in one piece in brass or bronze, with very little shrinkage.  If Mike can stick a good casting in the bowels of such a printer and deliver a wax or plastic copy for, say, $50 each, we are still in the ballpark.

The 3D printing option that Mike is stating is very interesting.  BOB2, since you have had direct contact with Dean Brasseur, could you ask him about Lionel sharing the CAD drawing of the truck?  Even flat black, replacement plastic trucks from more than a few feet away may look and work just fine.

Bob, I'd love to see you succeed in this process. I've looked for a truck, but no luck.

Two things,

1. Why can't ya'll make a casting of the entire piece with out cutting ?

2. Order the vision line truck and cut and modify it to work.

Good Luck,

Ron Howard

bob2 posted:

Mike - you are way out of my league.  I only know lost wax, and even then only enough to get somebody else to do the investment and pour metal.  Cutting Bob's perfect casting was not even discussed - we agreed I would return it intact.  It would kill me to cut it, then find out that the entire process would be too expensive to be viable.  I have not yet packed it for shipment - I will wait until next week.

No word on the cost of the complete Wolfer truck cost.  I don't want to become a pest.  Bob Stevenson is ready to make molds and cast the first set of the Lionel part.  We have not finished our discussion on two piece vs. four piece.  He is the expert, but I foresee problems with the two piece approach.

But hey - if the state of the art is such that a 3D printer can duplicate this casting in wax, that is a non-destructive approach, and we can surely cast that in one piece in brass or bronze, with very little shrinkage.  If Mike can stick a good casting in the bowels of such a printer and deliver a wax or plastic copy for, say, $50 each, we are still in the ballpark.

If you can get someone to make a 3D scan of your good truck, then there's no reason why you cant get it 3D printed. 

I have bought brass parts from the Ways of Shape. They print it in wax then cast it in brass. The natural finish is quite good, without any printing lines/waves.

The big step is going to be getting the high quality scan of the part into a computer. 

Again, I am not an expert in lost wax.  I have limited pleasant experience getting such things done.  True experts have told me it is better to do this in pieces.

I have zero expertise in 3D printing.  If you go that way, I simply cannot help.

As far as Mr. Brasseur is concerned, I have had two contacts with him.  One, he gave me implicit permission to duplicate this casting, and two, he unequivocally indicated that Lionel does not want the Legacy part evaluated for modification.  I have no working relationship with him - he seems like a nice guy, so if and when you decide to go the 3D printer route, have someone who knows the topic contact him.  If you do print a one-piece wax, I am sure I can help get it cast in brass or bronze.  Have the printer increase the size by one half of one percent, to account for metal shrinkage upon cooling.

So, question?  Assuming someone can get this thing coded in some machine language for printing in a 3D printer, what is a good guess for cost each part in wax?

I am not an expert in 3D printing either, but check out these HO GG1 3D parts that I just found:

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3736167 

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3736167  

https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:3736167  

Foundry was just asking about you guys.  He is ready to do the first set at his expense!  All he needs is that cuttable casting - the one that is slightly bowed, but not crumbling?

I told him your ardor may have cooled a bit.  I was ready to invest, as was one other of your fellow forumites.  This makes it a no risk deal!  He of course would recover his initial cost on the subsequent sales.

Still no price on the Wolfer casting sets.  That would be your fallback if all else fails.

I wonder why we have not heard from a hobbyist with a JLC and a Legacy model?  Could it possibly be that one could just completely replace the mechanism?  Or is Lionel not interested in that either?

Is the zinc pest problem only the motor truck section or is it also the pilot assembly, which is screwed onto the motor truck section. Is the lead truck zinc pest infected too?  Harry 

Harry, if you check with Walt, he has an example.  It's the side frames that cover the power trucks and also hold the pilot trucks and couplers.  The other parts seem unaffected in the afflicted locomotives.

My question is that the section that is the pilot and holds the truck on can be unscrewed from the truck side frame. Does the zinc pest effect the whole unit has shown in the picture or just the big side frame section?  If we need the front pilot section also, I can probably cast this also. The airline ? up to the pilot I can not do in one piece attached to the truck side frame. This is a 12" mold just to do the truck side section. Harry 

I'd take a look at Walt's JLC GG-1 sideframes, you can see first hand what is failing.  I just looked at my JLC GG-1, and that entire piece in the pictures is a single casting.  I don't think the small pilot truck mount is affected, but since mine isn't falling apart, I can't be sure.  I'm not sure what the "airline" is.

I was this close to "signing out" on this project, due to a lack of enthusiasm.  Robert and I now have a collective investment of thirty bucks (shipping is no longer cheap) and I have no personal interest in that the only way I will ever own a JLC GG1 is if one arrives free.

But I see there is still life here.  If Harry wants to do the molds and cast these things, that would be ok - nobody will get rich on this project.  But we really should coordinate!  

Robert may have a bowed casting.  If so, we will saw it carefully into two or four pieces, and then get Harry and Bob Stevenson on the same page so we only do this once.

Yes, it is my impression that only the main casting is failing.  The "air line" as I recall is a separate piece, and will need to be moved to the new casting when the pilot casting is attached.

Although I have no stake in this project, I find this thread very interesting, the efforts being made here very admirable, and sincerely hope it works out for all involved. Best of luck. 

Mark in Oregon

The mold is in progress to make the big side frame section for the motor truck. I will see how this works out . I had 2 complete units to make the molds from. I will not need anymore ( I hope ). I will keep everybody posted here on progress.  Harry 

Cool Harry, what process are you using for the molding?

Harry Henning posted:

The mold is in progress to make the big side frame section for the motor truck. I will see how this works out . I had 2 complete units to make the molds from. I will not need anymore ( I hope ). I will keep everybody posted here on progress.  Harry 

Harry,

 It’s great to hear that you’re going forward with this project.  I’m the guy who originally sent the “pristine” part to Bob2 because I have a JLC GG1 that is infested with zinc pest and I was at the point that I believed that this project needed to get done because there was no other alternative at the time.  I’m sure there are many folks with JLC GG1’s that don’t know about this issue and when they finally discover they have a crumbling truck frame and there are no parts available, they certainly will not be happy.

 I’m confident that you have this project well under control, however if there is anything can do to help bring this much needed part to completion, please let me know!  Again, thank you for your involvement.

 Chief Bob (Retired)  

This is good news!  Please post photos of the completed project.  I will notify Stevenson that we won't need to proceed.

bob2 posted:

This is good news!  Please post photos of the completed project.  I will notify Stevenson that we won't need to proceed.

Would it be wise to wait to see if this alternate plan works out first?

I think you are right, enough said for now. I will hopefully have a sample in a few weeks. Harry 

Harry Henning posted:

Is the zinc pest problem only the motor truck section or is it also the pilot assembly, which is screwed onto the motor truck section. Is the lead truck zinc pest infected too?  Harry 

When my parts failed, it seemed to just be the main part of the side frames that failed.  The pivoting pilot part mounted to the front of it was sold as part of the whole assembly, so I changed everything.  I don't believe the pilot itself had issues though.  I did re-use the pilot trucks as well since they still looked fine.