These arrived today and overall pretty happy with them. The Great Northern did come with a brass number board for the front of the engine and I have not attached it yet. Almost passed on the Burlington set because I wanted the late 40's early 50's version with black nose paint. But these are real nice and it gives me something to pull the California Zephyr with in the 60's.
Here is a shade picture for contrast
add the others as you get them. I would like to see the PM version.
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Beautiful! 
Blue Streak posted:... Almost passed on the Burlington set because I wanted the late 40's early 50's version with black nose paint. But these are real nice and it gives me something to pull the California Zephyr with in the 60's.
...
The paint schemes look fabulous. Stunning, in fact.
My only regret is Lionel didn't make both A-units in this offering powered. I wonder if there are any plans to offer a powered B-unit, 'cause I'm not sure one powered unit up front will be sufficient to pull a long, 12-car train like the CZ. For the price, I would have wanted both A-units powered.
Most folks planning to run long CZ trains are going with a two-unit powered configuration MINIMUM and some are going for three powered units so none of the locos needs to break a sweat -- especially if your layout has grades. Keep us posted how things work out with the single powered A-unit when you hook up your CZ behind it.
David
David,
I ordered the just announced Atlas F3 A-B-A (all powered) and already have the Rio Grande set from before (3 powered / 1 non powered). So I have enough power to pull the complete California Zephyr set. Problem is I will almost have two sets when the Golden Spike set shows up in the fall or next year, so I was thinking about a shorten version of the California Zephyr for these E7's.
Blue Streak posted:David,
I ordered the just announced Atlas F3 A-B-A (all powered) and already have the Rio Grande set from before (3 powered / 1 non powered). So I have enough power to pull the complete California Zephyr set. Problem is I will almost have two sets when the Golden Spike set shows up in the fall or next year, so I was thinking about a shorten version of the California Zephyr for these E7's.
Probably a good thought for a "shortened" CZ, especially since the stripes on the nose of the Burlington units are red. The Burlington changed from the black nose stripes to the red nose stripes in the late 1950s thru early 1960s. A "shortened" CZ might be appropriate for the mid to late 1960s.
Rocky Mountaineer posted:...I wonder if there are any plans to offer a powered B-unit, 'cause I'm not sure one powered unit up front will be sufficient to pull a long, 12-car train like the CZ.
David
I was kind of wondering the same thing. 
Wow, those are beautiful. They're too big for my current layout, but I wouldn't mind having them.
Rocky Mountaineer posted:Blue Streak posted:... Almost passed on the Burlington set because I wanted the late 40's early 50's version with black nose paint. But these are real nice and it gives me something to pull the California Zephyr with in the 60's.
...
The paint schemes look fabulous. Stunning, in fact.
My only regret is Lionel didn't make both A-units in this offering powered. I wonder if there are any plans to offer a powered B-unit, 'cause I'm not sure one powered unit up front will be sufficient to pull a long, 12-car train like the CZ. For the price, I would have wanted both A-units powered.
Most folks planning to run long CZ trains are going with a two-unit powered configuration MINIMUM and some are going for three powered units so none of the locos needs to break a sweat -- especially if your layout has grades. Keep us posted how things work out with the single powered A-unit when you hook up your CZ behind it.
David
I hope they used the older die cast frame with added weight in the fuel tank area. And not the stamped steel frames from the E8/9 versions.
The older release TMCC versions where real stump pullers.
I got my GN E7's today, too. In general, I am very pleased, especially with the Empire Builder orange and green color accuracy as well as the yellow striping. The silver trucks with black fuel tank are not correct to prototype, but they are as advertised in the catalog illustrations and they look nice...
FYI, these units are numbered 501A-501B and represent GN E7's from the approximate period 1950 to 1952, after the number boards were changed to the angled "F3 type" and a headlight installed in the nose door. (A MARS light was then installed in the original upper headlight position. The only units delivered with angled number boards and dual headlights were 510-512.) The evolution of GN E7 color schemes and numbering is quite complex and I won't go into it here but Ben Ringnalda's site has a good summary of it. The Video Rails series "Great Northern Volume 2 - Diesels" (available from Pentrex) has 8mm color film by GN employee Tony DeRosa including several scenes with E7's from 1947 to the mid-1960's. (Note: I have this on VHS tape, free to anyone willing to pay the postage. I upgraded to the DVD version.)
Not all of the GN E7's received silver paint on the trucks and underbody. Those known to have it are numbers 500, 503, 505, 508, 509 and 510-512; when applied it was to the entire underbody including trucks, tanks, etc. I think this occurred after the 1952 renumbering.
Just a note on pulling power...... I have 11 of the Kline 21" CZ cars, plus a 16" Lionel baggage in my consist. I have pulled these on my layout, with a couple 3% grades, with several of my engines (MTH Big Boy upgrade to ERR TMCC, Lionel St Fe YB3, MTH St Fe 110/109/110 consist, both 110s powered). Today I have pulled them with my Lionel PW F3s with dual pullmor motors, repainted by L&L Model Train Restoration to the red striped nose Burlington, an A-A combination. I do have one PW powered truck for an F3 and thought about placing in the dummy A, tether to the front A engine E unit (per Fred Doyle Backshop video instructions) for a three motored pull power, later to four motors. Really does look good with the Burlington F3s pulling and hearing the older pullmor motors growl. You would really be surprised ay how well the Lionel PW F3s pull this long consist around up and down grades for over 80 ft of tubular Lionel/K Line track, conventional from a ZWC trans and 180 watt bricks. Really do like those E7s, in both road names, I run both of those roads, have more than one engine in each, already. Plus, I really have limited space now for all the pcs of motive power I already have on shelves, in boxes, etc.
Beautiful engines, no question....... the E7s, and both paint schemes.
Jesse TCA 12-68275
Keep the photos coming. I received the Milwaukee Road E7's the other day. Here's some photos. Would like to see the PM's E7 if anybody got them.
The GN Man posted:I got my GN E7's today, too. In general, I am very pleased, especially with the Empire Builder orange and green color accuracy as well as the yellow striping. The silver trucks with black fuel tank are not correct to prototype, but they are as advertised in the catalog illustrations and they look nice...
FYI, these units are numbered 501A-501B and represent GN E7's from the approximate period 1950 to 1952, after the number boards were changed to the angled "F3 type" and a headlight installed in the nose door. (A MARS light was then installed in the original upper headlight position. The only units delivered with angled number boards and dual headlights were 510-512.) The evolution of GN E7 color schemes and numbering is quite complex and I won't go into it here but Ben Ringnalda's site has a good summary of it. The Video Rails series "Great Northern Volume 2 - Diesels" (available from Pentrex) has 8mm color film by GN employee Tony DeRosa including several scenes with E7's from 1947 to the mid-1960's. (Note: I have this on VHS tape, free to anyone willing to pay the postage. I upgraded to the DVD version.)
Not all of the GN E7's received silver paint on the trucks and underbody. Those known to have it are numbers 500, 503, 505, 508, 509 and 510-512; when applied it was to the entire underbody including trucks, tanks, etc. I think this occurred after the 1952 renumbering.
I was confused on the silver paint conundrum. Thanks to the internet I see what you have researched. Looks like F units were painted silver as well.
I guess some silver paint on the fuel tanks and lower rub rail are in order... Or the trucks could be painted / weathered black? - nope... looks like the whole top portion of the E7 has a different pin stripe and dark green paint line....
Best bet is to paint the trucks black?
I sure like my E5's - they are not right either... but sure like the shovel nose, time to get rid of the front lobster claw and go to fixed pilot...
Yes, the GN E7 paint scheme was originally different from the F units. 502, 503 and 510 were later painted in the same scheme as the F units; this occurred sometime in the mid to late 50's and two of the units appear in the photo JDaddy posted. In the early 60's GN changed locomotives to the simplified orange/green paint scheme which was the same for E and F units. The GN E7's had five variations of the orange/green paint scheme over their lives, plus the underbody silver variations I noted earlier. None were ever painted GN Sky Blue or BN green, but most survived to the BN merger and received BN numbers.
For what it's worth, the GN and Q did not own any E7 B units. The GN ran only A, usually coupled back to back, where as the Q ran their A units elephant style most all the time, especially on long haul passenger trains like the CZ, DZ, Empire Builder, etc. See attached photo.
Interesting... 5 variations. I am on the hunt for these books, they have a wealth of information...
I believe this is one of other variants of the E 7 paint schemes that I could find.
I believe simplified by removing the yellow pin stripes?
Really liked the early FT paint schemes:
Another variation of the GN was the as delivered paint scheme, it didn't last long. The model is one I custom painted and lettered in HO.
Nice!
Ray of sunshine posted:For what it's worth, the GN and Q did not own any E7 B units. The GN ran only A, usually coupled back to back, where as the Q ran their A units elephant style most all the time, especially on long haul passenger trains like the CZ, DZ, Empire Builder, etc. See attached photo.
In the days before push-pull operation, part of the reason the Q favored elephant style on the Zephyrs was because all the E units would rotate through the commuter pool (I recall seeing an E5 on a Sunday dinky once.) There was no turntable at the Zephyr pit in Chicago and locomotives would have to be wyed when needed south of Roosevelt road at the entrance of the Union Station trackwork.
It simply was a matter of which way a locomotive was facing when it was assigned to a Zephyr.
Rusty
I have a question for you Great Northern fans. I have seen plenty of photos of E-units in the orange and green scheme pulling streamline cars in the matching scheme, as in the photos you have shared above. I have also see photos of streamline GN cars painted a solid brown or greenish brown, but no photos of the engines pulling them. Were the greenish brown cars ever pulled by the orange and green E-units, or were they pulled by an earlier, less common diesel paint scheme, or pulled by steam engines?
Ray and JDaddy, that paint scheme with the green script lettering on front is the second scheme. The 500-504 A-A sets were originally delivered with YELLOW script lettering on the nose, but it was hard to see against the orange background so it was changed to green. Mark, to answer your question, heavyweight cars in pullman green were frequently pulled by orange and green diesels. Some of the heavyweight baggage cars served well into the sixties without repainting. The picture below shows the Puget Sounder in 1950 before the streamlined Internationals were inaugurated. (Note the presence of a CB&Q pendulum car as well...)
Ray of sunshine posted:For what it's worth, the GN and Q did not own any E7 B units. The GN ran only A, usually coupled back to back, where as the Q ran their A units elephant style most all the time, especially on long haul passenger trains like the CZ, DZ, Empire Builder, etc. ...
All the more reason that Lionel should have stepped up and offered both A-units powered for a $1,000 MSRP. The cost of the actual motors is a mere fraction of the overall cost of tooling and production.
David
That is steep. Of course I passed on the E8/E9 s when they had a sale at 799.00 and they all seemed to disappear? Where these BTO?
The thought crossed my mind that the Milwaukee version might look nice with these Hiawatha passenger cars. Unfortunately, it looks like the shades of orange are different. Oh, well, it would have been a really sharp train otherwise.
Actually that passenger set looks great with the "beaver tail " observation style car behind the 261 4-8-4 Northern.
Please pardon the novice question, but were the Great Northern E7s, 501A and 501B used on the Empire Builder train? If so, were these two engines used back to back without additional motive power (is J Daddy's photo above of E7s)? Finally, except for the undercarriage, is the Lionel paint scheme generally accurate for the Empire Builder? Thank you in advance for any information.
Overall the Lionel paint scheme looks good, I would just paint the truck side frames a low gloss black per the discussion above. Looks like the apex is missing on the pilot front like the earlier releases had... I wish they would just fine tune these things, especially since it would take no effort to reach into box A instead of box B and assemble.
Blue Streak : Just a quick question and request - can you tell what the drive (powered wheels ) are? Are they all powered ? only two axles? or only one? A picture of the underside showing the power trucks and the wheel arrangement ( Flanged/blind/flanged, all flanged, or flanged/flanged/blind ) Would be helpful.
Thanks, Dennis M.
I am a big GN fan. Especially the Empire Builder scheme. The E7 led Empire builder is my all time favorite passenger train.
Unfortunately, Lionel decided to offer their E units with a dummy A and a sound system that only produces the sound of 1 of 4 prototypical prime movers. For the price they are asking it's a no go for me. I think the 3rd rail E units are a better value for what you get. In fact Scott has done or will do E7s, E8s, PAs, and I may have him interested in FAs. All of the recent Lionel versions of those models have dummy A units with no sound. Even for my son's 3 rail layout I know what I'd rather buy.
Sorry to be negative. Lionel could have had a real winner on their hands, but they fell short in my opinion.
pferddy posted:Please pardon the novice question, but were the Great Northern E7s, 501A and 501B used on the Empire Builder train? If so, were these two engines used back to back without additional motive power (is J Daddy's photo above of E7s)? Finally, except for the undercarriage, is the Lionel paint scheme generally accurate for the Empire Builder? Thank you in advance for any information.
At least until they were replaced by F-Units:
Rusty
Please pardon the novice question, but were the Great Northern E7s, 501A and 501B used on the Empire Builder train? Yes, they were used on the streamlined Empire Builder inaugurated in 1947. They were delivered in 1945 and used on heavyweight passenger trains until the new cars were ready. The War Production Board allowed GN to order them in 1944 provided they would used (during WW2) in both freight and passenger service; GN technically complied with that by using the E7's to haul Train 27, the Fast Mail, westbound and Train 2, the Empire Builder, eastbound. Circa 1951, GN assigned F3 & F7 units to the transcontinental trains. The E7s were split up and assigned to other routes not in mountainous territory.
If so, were these two engines used back to back without additional motive power (is J Daddy's photo above of E7s)? In general, yes. E7's were prone to traction motor overheating on mountain grades, however. In an attempt to alleviate this, GN ordered five F7B units and tried operating three unit sets, i.e. E7A-F7B-E7A circa 1950-51. The experiment was unsuccessful... In later years, the E7s were assigned to secondary routes out of Minneapolis, e.g. Badger/Gopher, Dakotan, etc. In these trains it was not unusual to see an E7 mated with an F unit or a passenger GP9.
Finally, except for the undercarriage, is the Lionel paint scheme generally accurate for the Empire Builder? Yes.
Mark Boyce posted:I have a question for you Great Northern fans. I have seen plenty of photos of E-units in the orange and green scheme pulling streamline cars in the matching scheme, as in the photos you have shared above. I have also see photos of streamline GN cars painted a solid brown or greenish brown, but no photos of the engines pulling them. Were the greenish brown cars ever pulled by the orange and green E-units, or were they pulled by an earlier, less common diesel paint scheme, or pulled by steam engines?
Okay, I found a photo of the cars I was thinking of. These are HO cars, but it doesn't matter. I am curious what engines pulled cars like these; steam, a different paint scheme than the orange and green, or are these fantasy cars? I'm still looking for the prototype photo I think I remember seeing. Thank you very much!
J Daddy posted:Actually that passenger set looks great with the "beaver tail " observation style car behind the 261 4-8-4 Northern.
I suppose so. However, these cars were cataloged with a Hiawatha Atlantic, which had matching orange and grey paint on the engine and tender, and which looks great with these cars. The S-3 Northern was cataloged with the more modern Hiawatha cars (with the skytop lounge observation car), which have black roofs, and which would match the black engine better, perhaps. I was just interested in a diesel with matching colors that could be used with these cars, and was hoping the E-7 would fit the bill.
Incidentally, I found the more modern Hiawatha cars cataloged with the S-3 to be a bit dull as far as their finish. Just my view. Besides the S-3, they also match the Legacy Milwaukee F-7s Lionel made.
Mark,
These are heavy weight cars of the 1930's and were pulled by steam engines of the 4-6-2's, 4-8-4 and 4-8-2 class. The GN had several of these engines painted with a green boiler, as noted in the attached photos.
breezinup posted:J Daddy posted:Actually that passenger set looks great with the "beaver tail " observation style car behind the 261 4-8-4 Northern.
I suppose so. However, these cars were cataloged with a Hiawatha Atlantic, which had matching orange and grey paint on the engine and tender, and which looks great with these cars. The S-3 Northern was cataloged with the more modern Hiawatha cars (with the skytop lounge observation car), which have black roofs, and which would match the black engine better, perhaps. I was just interested in a diesel with matching colors that could be used with these cars, and was hoping the E-7 would fit the bill.
Incidentally, I found the more modern Hiawatha cars cataloged with the S-3 to be a bit dull as far as their finish. Just my view. Besides the S-3, they also match the Legacy Milwaukee F-7s Lionel made.
Yes, I guess I was trying to say is the skydomes came in after the S-3's were De-regulated to freight.I never liked the Lionel sky dome cars released for the S3 which reflected the later excursion cars.. to many reasons to list here. So the Beaver Tail passenger cars just hit the time frame more appropriately...and they look better behind the engine itself.
However, getting back to your point. Cars for these engines. MTH did make a set that may somewhat fit the bill. And I totally agree with you - What an opportunity for Lionel to release appropriate passenger cars for these!
Ray of sunshine posted:Mark,
These are heavy weight cars of the 1930's and were pulled by steam engines of the 4-6-2's, 4-8-4 and 4-8-2 class. The GN had several of these engines painted with a green boiler, as noted in the attached photos.
Ray of Sunshine,
Neat name!! Yes, I have seen photos of the green engines. Thank you very much! I was thinking I saw streamline cars painted green once, but certainly could be thinking of something else. My interest picked up after hearing my uncle speak of riding the Empire Builder to Seattle when he started working for Boeing after WWII
To GN MAN: Many thanks for the information. Much appreciated.
Jonathan and others. I think it is important to remember that Lionel's offerings are geared to the average modeler, not the true scale rivet counter, and that the models they produce are genetic and not necessarily highly detailed to a specific road names. Even though the E7's appear cookie cutter, each railroad had unique features, most had subtle changes or add-ons that would not be noticed by the average modeler. Unless the modeler has researched the model.
In order to keep costs down, I know that Lionel and others, offer most diesels with the same detail features. Unlike scale suppliers, such as 3rd Rail whose models are more accurate to road specific.
Modifying a production run of an engine that requires additional modifications is costly.
So even though the Lionel E7 in GN or CB&Q or any other road name for that matter, lacks road specific details, I think they capture the essence of the prototype.
Most true scale modelers will either operate 2 rail, or if they choose 3 rail, will most likely stay with high end suppliers, or will modify the stock equipment offered by Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Weaver, and others.
Ray
We have one set left.
Thanks
Pat
Great Northern E7 AA Set #501A, #501B | ||||||||||||
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Great Northern E7 AA Set #501A, #501B The best-selling passenger diesel of all time, the E7 was a common sight on passenger trains from coast to coast. First delivered in 1941, many of the locomotives saw service into the 1970s. E7s led everything from the great named trains to local commuter runs even fast freight service was not out of the question. Sleek and versatile, these locomotives will earn their keep on your rails too. SETS INCLUDE: One PA Powered unit One PA Non-powered unit POWERED E7 UNITS FEATURE: LEGACY Control System-equipped able to run with LEGACY Control, TrainMaster Command Control, or Conventional with a standard transformer Odyssey II Speed Control with On/Off switch LEGACY RailSounds sound system IR Transmitter-equipped - works with LCS SensorTrack Dual powerful maintenance-free motors with momentum flywheels Detailed cab interior Engineer and conductor figure in cab Traction tire BOTH E7 UNITS FEATURE: ElectroCouplers on front of locomotives Die-cast metal trucks and fuel tank Directional headlight Fan-driven smoke unit Metal frame Illuminated number boards on front of locomotive Directional marker/class lights on front of locomotive Cab interior light Separately applied metal detail parts Window glass PRODUCT SPECIFICATIONS Gauge: Standard O Dimensions: 34" Long Rail Line: Great Northern Road Number: 501A & 501B Min Curve: O36 Most Recent Catalog: 2015
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