Lionel Great Northern & Burlington E7 Arrival

Ray of sunshine posted:

Jonathan and others. I think it is important to remember that Lionel's offerings are geared to the average modeler, not the true scale rivet counter, and that the models they produce are genetic and not necessarily highly detailed to a specific road names. Even though the E7's appear cookie cutter, each railroad had unique features, most had subtle changes or add-ons that would not be noticed by the average modeler. Unless the modeler has researched the model. 

In order to keep costs down, I know that Lionel and others, offer most diesels with the same detail features. Unlike scale suppliers, such as 3rd Rail whose models are more accurate to road specific.

Modifying a production run of an engine that requires additional modifications is costly.

So even though the Lionel E7 in GN or CB&Q or any other road name for that matter, lacks road specific details, I think they capture the essence of the prototype.

Most true scale modelers will either operate 2 rail, or if they choose 3 rail, will most likely stay with high end suppliers, or will modify the stock equipment offered by Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Weaver, and others.

Ray

 

Well said, Ray!  

Ray of sunshine posted:

Jonathan and others. I think it is important to remember that Lionel's offerings are geared to the average modeler, not the true scale rivet counter, and that the models they produce are genetic and not necessarily highly detailed to a specific road names. Even though the E7's appear cookie cutter, each railroad had unique features, most had subtle changes or add-ons that would not be noticed by the average modeler. Unless the modeler has researched the model. 

In order to keep costs down, I know that Lionel and others, offer most diesels with the same detail features. Unlike scale suppliers, such as 3rd Rail whose models are more accurate to road specific.

Modifying a production run of an engine that requires additional modifications is costly.

So even though the Lionel E7 in GN or CB&Q or any other road name for that matter, lacks road specific details, I think they capture the essence of the prototype.

Most true scale modelers will either operate 2 rail, or if they choose 3 rail, will most likely stay with high end suppliers, or will modify the stock equipment offered by Lionel, MTH, Atlas, Weaver, and others.

Ray

 

Well Ray I both agree and disagree with you at the same time. For those 3 railers that are ignorant of the differences I'm sure these are just fine. They will also negotiate tighter curves which is a selling point.

These were newly tooled items if I recall. Lionel had the chance to do whatever they wanted to. In my opinion they chose to strip everything out of the dummy unit to increase profits because quite frankly this is "good enough" for most 3 rail train buyers.

What frustrates me is that on one hand Lionel will tout all of the road specific details on the new SD40, but they cheap out on these. You never know what you are going to get. And that is a big problem when they require a BTO sight unseen purchase. It wouldn't have taken much more development to improve the sound files. Lionel has great sound quality, but not accuracy in many cases. If I would have BTO'd a nearly $900 pair of these and heard a single prime mover when I fired it up they would have gone straight back to the dealer.

I recognize that I don't represent the average 3 rail modeler. Sometimes I wish I could go back to the time when I was ignorant of the mistakes and compromises that exist in 3R. There was a time when I didn't mind the 3rd rail. Now it jumps out at me every time I look at it...

If these make you happy, then I am happy for you. Enjoy.

"Unless the modeler has researched the model" 

Ray - But this is what we paid Lionel to do... 

Don't get me wrong these are still nice representative models, but just a little due care and I believe they would have been GREAT models. 

I was hoping that's what BTO would offer.

J Daddy posted:

Interesting... 5 variations. I am on the hunt for these books, they have a wealth of information...

 

JDaddy,

A search of the internet last night (I like an occasional challenge) brought me to the following website:

http://www.gngoat.org/books.htm

Using the ISBN numbers I was able to find the following two potential links which might help you:

Volume 1:  http://www.gettextbooks.com/isbn/9780961687465/

Volume 3:  http://www.gettextbooks.com/isbn/9780961687489/

- Jeff

Thank you Jeff. 

Mark Boyce posted:

Mark Boyce posted:

I have a question for you Great Northern fans.  I have seen plenty of photos of E-units in the orange and green scheme pulling streamline cars in the matching scheme, as in the photos you have shared above.  I have also see photos of streamline GN cars painted a solid brown or greenish brown, but no photos of the engines pulling them.  Were the greenish brown cars ever pulled by the orange and green E-units, or were they pulled by an earlier, less common diesel paint scheme, or pulled by steam engines?

Okay, I found a photo of the cars I was thinking of.  These are HO cars, but it doesn't matter.  I am curious what engines pulled cars like these; steam, a different paint scheme than the orange and green, or are these fantasy cars?  I'm still looking for the prototype photo I think I remember seeing.  Thank you very much!

The green heavyweight cars were pulled by steam locomotives, including the color-coordinated S2 Northerns.

http://www.steamlocomotive.com/northern/?page=gn

Sure would make a beautiful set...

Thank you Jim and J Daddy!

That would make a very handsome train indeed!!

We took the Empire Builder to/from East Glacier a couple weeks ago and I took a couple quick photos of the 2584 (it was a short stop @ Havre, MT since we were behind schedule):

And, a search of the internet found 3rd Rail did a model of this engine in 1998/99:

          https://web.archive.org/web/19...ail.com/3r_scale.htm

Scott/GGD/3rd Rail have the 1956 Empire Builder available for pre-order now (mine is on order w/F7s):

          http://www.goldengatedepot.com/reservation.html#GN

- Jeff

JEFFDOO,

MTH has offered that same GN 4-8-4, in different road numbers, TWICE.

Jeff-

She is looking long in the tooth... hope they get a roof over her

Hot Water posted:

JEFFDOO,

MTH has offered that same GN 4-8-4, in different road numbers, TWICE.

 

Hot Water,

Okay, I am guilty of only searching 3rd Rail... after ordering the Empire Builder a couple weeks ago I was rather short sighted in my search criteria.

In keeping with the topic of the thread I do like these E7s and would like to order a set but the train budget is already spent....

- Jeff

Yes, I am sorry to send us down a rabbit trail, but thank you everyone for the great information and photos!!

Not to diverge too much on the GN 4-8-4... But the MTH model ...  I was fortunate to see one at one of our club meets and the details are fantastic and the sound was WOW !

J Daddy posted:

Not to diverge too much on the GN 4-8-4... But the MTH model ...  I was fortunate to see one at one of our club meets and the details are fantastic and the sound was WOW !

I compared my first run MTH model against the Sunset brass version (only came in conventional) and the detailing on the MTH model is actually better than the brass version. Thus, those Sunset brass models don't seem to sell for much over $500, if that.

jeffdoo posted:

...

Okay, I am guilty of only searching 3rd Rail... after ordering the Empire Builder a couple weeks ago I was rather short sighted in my search criteria.

In keeping with the topic of the thread I do like these E7s and would like to order a set but the train budget is already spent....

 Jeff, just a cautionary note... I'd be very careful about ordering a locomotive (or locomotives) from one importer and the cars from another importer.  If you are a stickler for matching colors, it would be safer to order your locomotives from 3rd Rail since you've already ordered their Empire Builder.  From what we've seen in promo photos, the 3rd Rail Empire Builder might have more of an olive green tint in its green/orange/gold color scheme (very close to the color scheme in the photos on the book cover a couple of posts up);  whereas the Lionel Great Northern E7's pictured in this thread seem to have a strikingly deep green/orange color scheme. 

I like both styles, but I'm not sure I'd like the mismatch in a single train.  I'd probably be inclined to go all 3rd Rail or all Lionel.  Given the pace at which Lionel is filling out its 21" passenger car line-up, the company may very likely offer a Great Northern 21" passenger car set in an upcoming catalog to go along with the recent E7 A-A set.  And while that might be more affordable than 3rd Rail's set, Lionel only offers one powered A-unit up front.  Meanwhile, 3rd Rail has offered to re-run their Great Northern F7 locomotives to match the passenger cars (if there's sufficient interest), but 3rd Rail's price for powered units is now $700/each.  So an ABA with 8 passenger cars will set you back close to $4,400 -- and that's WITHOUT the $600 full-vista dome car!    OUCH!!!

David

Rocky Mountaineer posted:

jeffdoo posted:

...

Okay, I am guilty of only searching 3rd Rail... after ordering the Empire Builder a couple weeks ago I was rather short sighted in my search criteria.

In keeping with the topic of the thread I do like these E7s and would like to order a set but the train budget is already spent....

 Jeff, just a cautionary note... I'd be very careful about ordering a locomotive (or locomotives) from one importer and the cars from another importer.  If you are a stickler for matching colors, it would be safer to order your locomotives from 3rd Rail since you've already ordered their Empire Builder.  From what we've seen in promo photos, the 3rd Rail Empire Builder might have more of an olive green tint in its green/orange/gold color scheme (very close to the color scheme in the photos on the book cover a couple of posts up);  whereas the Lionel Great Northern E7's pictured in this thread seem to have a strikingly deep green/orange color scheme. 

I like both styles, but I'm not sure I'd like the mismatch in a single train.  I'd probably be inclined to go all 3rd Rail or all Lionel.  Given the pace at which Lionel is filling out its 21" passenger car line-up, the company may very likely offer a Great Northern 21" passenger car set in an upcoming catalog to go along with the recent E7 A-A set.  And while that might be more affordable than 3rd Rail's set, Lionel only offers one powered A-unit up front.  Meanwhile, 3rd Rail has offered to re-run their Great Northern F7 locomotives to match the passenger cars (if there's sufficient interest), but 3rd Rail's price for powered units is now $700/each.  So an ABA with 8 passenger cars will set you back close to $4,400 -- and that's WITHOUT the $600 full-vista dome car!    OUCH!!!

David

David,

I have the Sunset GN F7s also on pre-order and can only hope Scott receives enough orders.  I have not decided what I will do if Scott cancels the F7s because I agree it will be extremely difficult to match the color scheme.

 - Jeff

Jeff, David, et al

A few days ago I emailed Scott to ask if he had made a decision on whether to proceed with the GN F7s.  He replied as follows (hope Scott does not mind me posting his reply): 

"We are thinking of adding other roads for a rerun, making it more
likely than not that these will be done.

But we might not make them until next year.

Scott"

So, no guarantee at this point, but there is hope.  If anyone is interested in a 3rd rail F7 in any road, I recommend an email to Scott to let him know of your interest.  I would probably order one or more other roads in addition to the GN.  I don't want to miss out this time.

Steve

I also have the Golden Gate Depot set of GN Empire Builder set on order. (8 car set + Extra Dome Coach + Extra Sleeper + Great Dome). So today I added the a set of F7's to the order (A-B-A). I debated on a A-B-B-A set but had to have some budget restraints because I see some Alco Pa's in my future. When I looked through all of my GN Books (I have a bunch of them) about 75% of the pictures showed the empire builder with an A-B-A set and the remaining 25% with an A-B-B-A set  or earlier A-A E7. So I hope the 3 will pull it.

I was going to wait for some Atlas F7's, but like you guys I started worrying about the color match. From what I have seen the colors from 3rd rail have been pretty glossy and I do not particular like that, but I need them to match. Of course there is no guarantee that the Sunset F7's will match the Golden Gate Depot Empire Builders being that they will likely be made in two separate factories. But I took the plunge on good faith. Now if Atlas comes out with GN F7's I will buy those in a second. And if they go bold and do an empire builder I would buy it too.   

Now back to the original topic of the Lionel E7's. I hear all the gum mashing on this and that on the Lionel E7's, but I like them and glad I bought them. My plans are to run maybe a shorter Empire Builder with them or pull Lionel's 21" cars behind them (when they are made - you know they will be made eventually). Or I will run a GN secondary train with them like the Western Star, etc. Yes they could have been built in many other paint schemes since there were several that they wore and maybe the silver trucks are not correct for this paint scheme but I think the color is great and If I want to paint the trucks black later I can. One thing over sunset is the Lionel's sound system is superior. Are the Lionel's E7's perfect, of course not. But the Sunset models I have are not perfect either. The Lionel E7's cost me $800.00 pre order w/ free ship. The two Sunset E8's I have on order (Texas & Pacific - where else am I going to get T&P's) are costing me $669.95 + $45 shipping each(ouch!) so a total of $1429.90 for two engines, granted they are both powered.

I with you guys, I want the paint right and the numbers correct, etc. But I can give on a few details if the price is right. After all most of us still have this mysterious third rail running down the center of our tracks and I have no plans to get rid of it.

Can anyone post a video of the GN or Burlington  versions?

I will pick up my Burlington set in the morning at Charlies.  Lionel has done a very good job with these.