Lionel LC+ attraction?

No $300.00 control system to buy.

Plug it in or 18 volts from a transformer and you are good to go.

They run good, sound good but you don't get Legacy quality sound.

Oh yeah, gaining  a following as each new Lionel catalog comes out with more LC+ offerings.   These have proven to be a BIG winner for Lionel and will continue to pick up enthusiasts.

If you search, there are a couple of recent LC threads. Also,  I know "Train Room Gary"  has posted several LC reviews with videos.

Join the club!

The LC+ seem nice with the features and the price is a lot less than Legacy equipment.  For me, it would need to have an upgrade path to Legacy which I own.  There really are no reasonable engines with TMCC unless you get used these days or Legacy engines on sale.  The MTH starter sets come with a remote commander which allows basic control through an IR sensor controller.  If you get the full system in the future it opens up more features.  They have one control system from the cheapest to the high end.

Just my 2 cents. 

very popular with the children!

Sunrise Special posted:

Simplicity with some bells and whistles?

 

Yes, among other things. Ease of operation is a major draw. Many operators have smaller layouts, and the LC+ engines fit that bill nicely. They enjoy just relaxing and running a few trains, sometimes for a quick break, without fooling around with more complicated control systems. The LC+ is like running postwar and later traditional engines, except they have dc motors and superb cruise control, electrocouplers and remote control operation. That gives 99% of what a lot of folks are looking for who just want to fire up trains and run them in their spare time. Some people love fiddling with more involved control systems and doing this and that with them, which is fine, but making the trains move around the layout is the main thing, and LC+ gives that in easy operation, plus the ability to run multiple trains simultaneously with the cruise capability, at a relatively affordable cost. 

For me it's perfect for my layout. Plus if someone brings their kid over, they can operate it a lot easier than they would with a Legacy or TMCC and take turns running it or run several engines without having to wait their turn.

I also won't pay Legacy prices. You can easily spend almost $1000 just buying the remote and a engine. With LC+ it all comes together and the price is as high as $400 for a FT AA unit or as low as $250 for a RS-3. I don't mind having multiple remotes.

If you want everything Legacy offers and you have the money to spend, go for it. LC+ does enough that I'm happy with it. It boils down to preference.

Here is my take:  I have been a LC+ fan since the beginning.   I have 7 LC+ locos and one MTH DCS 3.0 loco.   I run my MTH and  LC+ locos on my 4'X 8' and on my 6'X12'.

I will agree with Sunrise that the MTH is a bit better detailed, and the sound is a bit better than the LC+.

On the other hand, the MTH remote commander allows only one DCS loco to run at a time, while with the LC+ I can have as many locos running as I want.

The MTH loco must be occasionally "factory reset".   Not a big deal, but inconvenient.   The DCS remote must be pointed at the infrared receiver (bouncing off walls works as well), while with the LC+ I can be anywhere and control the loco without checking the pointing of the remote.

I have the Lionel FT LC+ ABA consist (Santa Fe), which is a joy to operate.   All three smoke, two have power, one has sound.   There is no consisting involved, I just pick up the remote and my consist responds perfectly.   No hassle, no star wiring, no limitation on LC+ locos, its just fun and satisfying.

I intend to purchase additional MTH DCS 3.0 locos, but have not been inspired to do so, but greatly enjoy the MTH SD70, it is VERY nice.

It is great that both systems operate on the same track (power goes through the DCS infrared TIU) at the same time perfectly.

MTH RailKing might have better detail at roughly the same price point, but you get a CONVENTIONAL engine. At minimum you have to spend another $50/$60 for the basic remote, or $300/$400 for a full DCS setup.

Sure if you get the full setup, it's a one-time expense, but it is a significant one-time expense, and many/most people balk at that. They're not sure if they want to go whole-hog into the hobby or just dip their toes in the water.

I just don't get the *HATE* for LC+ that is constantly being spilled on this forum.

NOBODY complains that Legacy isn't DCS or DCS isn't Legacy.

LC+ gets pooped on HARDCORE for not being either of those, usually Legacy.

I'm a Legacy/TMCC guy, but the LC+ market is very great indeed for this hobby. Plus w/ the advent of the soon-to-be-release universal remote, people won't have to have 17000 remotes all over their layout. So to me that indicates that Lionel is putting more R&D into the future of this product line. My guess is that there will be much greater advancements in the LC world in the years to come. Pretty exciting.

Wow, A lot of good replies already posted here.  

Taking only the original question of comparing a similarly priced MTH engine to a LionChief Plus engine, it will mostly come down to which you prefer... Mostly.

I think it only fair to point out the pros of going with the MTH engine before talking about LC+.  The MTH engine has the ability to give you better sound and control if you run it with a full DCS system.  If you are planning on installing DCS, and/or are looking for complete layout control, the MTH engine may be a better choice for you.  

Without the full DCS system, as mentioned above, you get a conventional engine.  You can pretty much match the functionality of the LC+ system if you add  'Remote Commander' for about $50.  Also as was mentioned, that remote limits you to line of sight with the receiver.  The remote commander can also only operate a single engine set to address #1.

With LC+ you can run as many locomotives as you like, however you may not like having so many separate controllers.   Lionel is starting to address that issue with the multi engine remote now being offered.  

I can not say how good the speed control is on MTH products as my experience is limited.  I've done quite a bit of reading that engines are more or less accurate in their speeds within 1 or 2 SMPH of whatever speed they report, though that can be quite a big difference in some cases.  I can say, with absolute certainty, that the speed control on LC+ engines is fantastic.  The engine will move at the assigned speed regardless of variation in track power from 8 to 18 volts, though the very last, highest speed will not be available at voltages under about 14VAC.  It is important to understand that LC has only 16 speed steps so there is not a lot of adjustment, but the low speed control is very good.  These engines seem to start at about 2 SMPH.  Each step is an exact percentage faster than the last.  What percentage varies by model, but will be constant for that model of engine. My hudson is 33% per step, and my NW2 is 25% faster per step.  in both cases  you end up with 7 steps below 10 SMPH.  From there things speed up quickly.  

With LC/+ the remote is good for a good 50 feet through walls and all, and much more in open air.  You can follow your locomotive anywhere you like and never have to worry about playing pong with a wall to get a command through.  Also of note, if you do manage to lose signal, the engine will roll to a stop and beep at you.  this could be good or bad depending what else is on the track.  

When comparing similar engines it will mostly come down to which one you like the looks of better, if you already have a DCS system.  If you don't, you'll have to decide if that is the direction you are going, or if you'd like something simple and bullet proof.  

JGL

Matt Kirsch posted:

MTH RailKing might have better detail at roughly the same price point, but you get a CONVENTIONAL engine. At minimum you have to spend another $50/$60 for the basic remote, or $300/$400 for a full DCS setup.

Sure if you get the full setup, it's a one-time expense, but it is a significant one-time expense, and many/most people balk at that. They're not sure if they want to go whole-hog into the hobby or just dip their toes in the water.

I just don't get the *HATE* for LC+ that is constantly being spilled on this forum.

NOBODY complains that Legacy isn't DCS or DCS isn't Legacy.

LC+ gets pooped on HARDCORE for not being either of those, usually Legacy.

I take it you haven't heard of the DCS Commander. The $49.00 mini DCS?  

I suppose if you expect your total train experience to be limited to one or two toy trains with limited function ability, LC+ would work..    

Myself, I love t o run multiple unit trains. Can't do it with LC+.    Also, LC+ is a closed system..   Not being tied to it allows me to shop in the open market and buy anything that suits my needs., new or used.

So far nothing offered with LC+  hasn't  already been made 100 times, some with Legacy, some with TMCC    Think about being limited to buying new every time., those same units or even better ones in the secondary market  with legacy or TMCC , some selling for less then a new LC+, not compatible. 

Bottom line......LC+= Limited Compatability.  Its not free once you get past three. 

Joe

I did a comparison with my LC+ Santa Fe FT ABA and the New Rail King F-3 ABA and as far as details go on the outside they are pretty much on par with each other, if anything I thought the LC+ model was actually a little better. Lighting is about the same, and sound has to go to the LC+ model.

Price wise the LC+ ABA set was a bit more expensive then the Rail King, however there are some major differences in the full set.

• All my LC+ units smoke
• I have a Powered A and Powered B

Joe,

JC did mention the $50 DCS remote in his post above.

I would assume that much of the ill feelings from the Legacy camp are due to the fact that these people bought the Legacy system, the high-end system from Lionel,  with the idea of it being able to run ANYTHING command controlled in the Lionel product line. When Lionel took another path, that messed up their clean picture of a stable full of locos and just one remote to run them all.

I'm a Legacy system owner and would have liked compatibility through the entire Lionel world but I'll have to assume that Lionel is telling the truth when they say that it couldn't happen within a reasonable cost. 

I will also say that the LC+ really provides a nice set of features in a very user friendly package. The $50 DCS remote just isn't as intuitive and easy to use.

My first and only (thus far) LC+ is the new camel back.  After being in the shop off and on for six (6!!) months for assorted warranty issues (formerly problems), I got it up and running around Christmas.  I love it.  I'm a low tech guy and this lets me be low tech but the bells and whistles from across the room is really cool.  Also the low end speed which is better with the remote than conventional.  I'll buy more and look forward to the new orange multi remote.

I fail to understand why anyone can possibly be concerned with how others choose to enjoy the hobby.

Pete

Texas Pete posted:

I fail to understand why anyone can possibly be concerned with how others choose to enjoy the hobby.

Pete

Pretty amazing, isn't it?

If you like LC+, buy 'em. If you like MTH -- great products -- buy them.  And so on. There are lots of choices out there, folks.

The whole LC+ thing is sort of a puzzler. Seems like there are some who thought these were going away. Instead, the offerings are continuing to grow -- steam, diesel, and electric -- and they are becoming one of Lionel's shining stars. So, no, LC is definitely here to stay!

JC642 posted:

I take it you haven't heard of the DCS Commander. The $49.00 mini DCS? 

The DCS commander is primarily for HO folks, and it's not a wireless remote.  It puts only DC on the track at a maximum of 6 amps.  I recommend against this option for anyone that asks.  Rather than spend that money, go for the full DCS if you want to go that way.

The $49 mini DCS is the DCS Remote Commander.

The $49.00 DCS remote commander is a wireless system.....It  gives you limited command mode access to any P2 or P3 engine 

Joe

I asked a few questions about the Lion Chief+ system and was told it won't do TMCC engines, you need the TMCC control system to access TMCC. I have a new Atlas engine with TMCC on order and expect it very soon, so it looks like I will be running it in conventional mode.

Lion Chief+ is a great starter set thing and may get people into the hobby better, but that's it. However it is not for use with TMCC, Legacy or DCS.

Lee Fritz

johnstrains posted:

Texas Pete posted:

I fail to understand why anyone can possibly be concerned with how others choose to enjoy the hobby.

Pete

Pretty amazing, isn't it?

If you like LC+, buy 'em. If you like MTH -- great products -- buy them.  And so on. There are lots of choices out there, folks.

The whole LC+ thing is sort of a puzzler. Seems like there are some who thought these were going away. Instead, the offerings are continuing to grow -- steam, diesel, and electric -- and they are becoming one of Lionel's shining stars. So, no, LC is definitely here to stay!

I agree.  For those who expect to limit themselves to Lionel LC+ purchases, and whatever cost & limitations it brings, its for them..

Myself, I expanded my horizons years ago to the open market .

Joe

Myself, I expanded my horizons years ago to the open market .

 

Have you felt "better" since then?

Pete

A video show in tell, in this video I will show three Lionel Chief Plus Controllers, TMCC & MTH - DCS Controller. Take a look, after I filmed this video my MTH DCS - Controller went down, waiting on a part. The $25,00 Thumb wheel. Hope this video helps.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1IqzW9IL7U

Gary - Cheers from The Detroit and Mackinac Railway

Like I said, it's all a matter of preference. You can debate the issue til the cows come home and I'm still gong to run the system I like.

DennyM posted:

Like I said, it's all a matter of preference. You can debate the issue til the cows come home and I'm still gong to run the system I like.

Absolutely, and you can run all three (Legacy / TMCC, DCS, Lionchief) on the same layout at the same time if you wanted and it works seamlessly because in a nut shell they are all command control technologies. Put my track at 18 Volts and I'm off on my morning passenger run or delivering freight through the mountain pass.

DennyM posted:

Like I said, it's all a matter of preference. You can debate the issue til the cows come home and I'm still gong to run the system I like.

I like your altitude, that's the way to say it.   If you don't like the product don't buy it.  Why trash someone else because they do like the product?

"I fail to understand why anyone can possibly be concerned with how others choose to enjoy the hobby."

Yeah, pretty much hits the nail on the head. I prefer TMCC/etc to DCS. But - when that MTH loco comes along that I've "always" wanted, and Lionel and Friends don't make it - I buy it, if I can. MTH - great stuff; Lionel - great stuff; Atlas...you get the picture. Even modern Williams has a few moments of desirability.

I have no LC loco - yet. That scale camelback is talking to me...as is that husky, semi-scale re-incarnation of the PW 2055. Scale girth, compressed length - great freelance fodder.

All,

Thanks for the input concerning the LC+ engines. I have to admit.. I don't quite understand the reply....."I fail to understand why anyone can possibly be concerned with how others choose to enjoy the hobby."  I was simply asking a question about LC+ engines. I don't get it.

Sunrise

Sunrise Special posted:

All,

Thanks for the input concerning the LC+ engines. I have to admit.. I don't quite understand the reply....."I fail to understand why anyone can possibly be concerned with how others choose to enjoy the hobby."  I was simply asking a question about LC+ engines. I don't get it.

Sunrise

Sunrise, 

Go back and read through the threads. That was not directed at you but to another one of the posters.

Glad you are getting some good info on LC and LC+. Let us know if you end up purchasing one!

Johnstrains,

Thanks for helping me understand. I'm a sucker for the Lionel whimsical stuff. I'm going to order the LC+ North Pole Central Pacific engine from Patrick's Trains tomorrow. I currently have DCS and all MTH engines..but I think for a Christmas train to run around the tree...this would be absolutely perfect.  I'm going to keep my eye out for the North Pole Central caboose and passenger cars on the auction site. I have plenty of Christmas freight cars. Thanks again to all for the great information!

Sunrise

If you think about it, the LC+ engines are a perfect match for Fastrack floor layouts.  No special wiring is required and you have command control without a base unit.  I use my LC starter sets on my Christmas floor layout.  I really like the North Pole Pacific LC+ just for the easy of operation alone.  I really want a Polar Express LC+. 

Joe, just an interesting point - with LC+ you CAN run multiple unit trains!    Multiple of the same engine can be distributed throughout a train - and all will respond perfectly to the remote.   No consisting setup needed.

Just for fun, I ran a long tank train a moment ago with my FT A in front, and the powered FT B unit at the rear pushing.   Worked perfectly.   The couplers at the front of the train were stretched, and those at the end of the train were bunched.   Cool!

So now I plan on purchasing two of the new GP38s and use one as a pusher at the end, or in mid-train. (I wish they had better handrails).

LC+ consisting capability.

Sunrise Special posted:

Johnstrains,

Thanks for helping me understand. I'm a sucker for the Lionel whimsical stuff. I'm going to order the LC+ North Pole Central Pacific engine from Patrick's Trains tomorrow. I currently have DCS and all MTH engines..but I think for a Christmas train to run around the tree...this would be absolutely perfect.  I'm going to keep my eye out for the North Pole Central caboose and passenger cars on the auction site. I have plenty of Christmas freight cars. Thanks again to all for the great information!

Sunrise

 

Sounds good.

Make sure you check out the 2016 Lionel catalogs just released. Several new Lion Chief Plus offerings (steam and diesel) in addition to the many that are already out there.

To put my 2 cents in...

I love MTH, buying a starter set with the DCS Commander your all set to rurun othernother MTH engines. I prefer them over LIONEL products because I can afford MTH stuff.

Now Lionchief Plus is nice, but I would like stuff that is more detailed. Our youth program has few members that have Lionchief/ Lionchief Plus product. I wouldn't purchase a Lionchief Plus loco because the remotes and the universal remote to me could be differently designed similar to a TMCC Remote and have the Ability to locate the engine typing in the number.

LionChief Plus has pretty much all the features I want or need in above rugged package.  I would like to see baby K4 or L1... And a Long Island camelback.

Jon

D500 posted:

"I fail to understand why anyone can possibly be concerned with how others choose to enjoy the hobby."

Yeah, pretty much hits the nail on the head. I prefer TMCC/etc to DCS. But - when that MTH loco comes along that I've "always" wanted, and Lionel and Friends don't make it - I buy it, if I can. MTH - great stuff; Lionel - great stuff; Atlas...you get the picture. Even modern Williams has a few moments of desirability.

I have no LC loco - yet. That scale camelback is talking to me...as is that husky, semi-scale re-incarnation of the PW 2055. Scale girth, compressed length - great freelance fodder.

as is that husky, semi-scale re-incarnation of the PW 2055. Scale girth, compressed length.

Is this new for 2016??

Art

Hobbyists are voting with their wallets and LC+ is a big winner. That's the bottom line. As long as sales stay strong (and the lack of significant price competition among the largest dealers underlines the strength of the market), we will see more and more LC+ variations and elaborations.

Lionel may have to sell 3 - 4 LC+ locos to equal one vision line loco, but for folks like me, $230-$350 gets me simplified command control. And, for those of us who can't or won't spend $1,000 - $2,000 for a locomotive, LC+ is a very pleasant alternative.

I believe Lionel is serving a price point in the market for hobbyists who have nice, smaller layouts whose budget and space available preclude large, scale top of the line locomotives.  

I have tremendous respect and admiration for the most serious modelers. Their layouts and equipment are really works of art and I love seeing them in person or in magazines. The weathering is amazing and the realism often spectacular. My layout will never approach these layouts, but it doesn't have to for me to enjoy it thoroughly. So, I tip my hat to the artists in our hobby and I hope they can tip their hats to their less accomplished fellow hobbyists. The more of us there are, the more variety in desirable products we'll all see.

As in the auto industry, the most incredible features debut in the highest priced cars, but after a few years they trickle down to everyday autos. The same process has brought us LC +. It is as much a positive for the entire hobby as the Vision Line and Proto 3 MTH products.

I would love to see a Long Island RR RS3, GP38 and Camelback. Maybe next time around!

Sunrise

Trainfun posted:

Hobbyists are voting with their wallets and LC+ is a big winner. That's the bottom line. As long as sales stay strong (and the lack of significant price competition among the largest dealers underlines the strength of the market), we will see more and more LC+ variations and elaborations.

Lionel may have to sell 3 - 4 LC+ locos to equal one vision line loco, but for folks like me, $230-$350 gets me simplified command control. And, for those of us who can't or won't spend $1,000 - $2,000 for a locomotive, LC+ is a very pleasant alternative.

I believe Lionel is serving a price point in the market for hobbyists who have nice, smaller layouts whose budget and space available preclude large, scale top of the line locomotives.

 

 

You hit the nail on the head! 

Those $1,000 trains aren't even on my radar.

It's all about choices. And the Lion Chief Plus line is filling a need. Thanks to Lionel.

I've just got back into the hobby due to my son's LC Polar Express. With a wife, one kid now and one on the way, plus a full time job and a side business- I don't have the money or time for a legacy system. LC and LC+ is easy and cheap(ish). I don't have to explain to my son the complex way to run the train. Just turn this. I get cool decent enough looking engines with remote control! Sure in the future I may expand in to Legacy,  and with LC and LC+ I still can!