Lionel Legacy fef-3 owners.....your opinion of smoke output

IMO, 20 drops is certainly not too much.  I've never seen a totally dry fan driven smoke unit that didn't need more at first.  The exception is the small one used in some MTH locomotives, it has a very small smoke chamber.

Watch my YouTube video on #838 found in my Chanel. I cover how much smoke fluid is required for a good amount of smoke at all speeds. Also I believe the smoke "chuffing" through the whistle hole is inevitable as it is a result of the smoke unit design. I have gotten use to it and it doesn't bother me. My #838 is a great smoker and I am very happy with it. 

gunrunnerjohn posted:

IMO, 20 drops is certainly not too much.  I've never seen a totally dry fan driven smoke unit that didn't need more at first.  The exception is the small one used in some MTH locomotives, it has a very small smoke chamber.

Would you please advise us on which MTH locomotives or which type/series, etc. MTH locomotives have the very small smoke chambers?  Thanks

It is pretty good, I agree 20 drops is not much at all.  I put more than that in, probably double that amount.  I do get some smoke from the whistle hole....not much but it does come thru there but overall I would have to say I am pretty happy with the amount of smoke.

SURFLINER posted:

Would you please advise us on which MTH locomotives or which type/series, etc. MTH locomotives have the very small smoke chambers?  Thanks

Stuff like the Premier VO-1000 and other small diesel switchers use the small smoke unit.  Any application where the standard smoke unit is too large probably gets the small one.

MTH Small Smoke Unit

20 drops are not enough.

The new batting takes a lot of fluid to saturate.  

Simply put, I don't believe you have enough fluid in it.

Recommend you view Laid Off Sick's video on you tube.  It's an eye opener!  

I can tell you with a properly saturated batting, mine smokes so much I have to turn off the unit for a while.

86TA355SR posted:

20 drops are not enough.

The new batting takes a lot of fluid to saturate.  

Simply put, I don't believe you have enough fluid in it.

Recommend you view Laid Off Sick's video on you tube.  It's an eye opener!  

I can tell you with a properly saturated batting, mine smokes so much I have to turn off the unit for a while.

And I can tell you an over saturated smoke unit can leak over you boards and void your warranty if you are not careful. It could cost you $$$ and delay a repair because Lionel is not doing any non warranty repairs at the moment. 

While Laidoffsick brings valuable insight to smoke units, I caution you to follow them at your own risk.  Just a piece of advice. 

MartyE posted:

86TA355SR posted:

20 drops are not enough.

The new batting takes a lot of fluid to saturate.  

Simply put, I don't believe you have enough fluid in it.

Recommend you view Laid Off Sick's video on you tube.  It's an eye opener!  

I can tell you with a properly saturated batting, mine smokes so much I have to turn off the unit for a while.

And I can tell you an over saturated smoke unit can leak over you boards and void your warranty if you are not careful. It could cost you $$$ and delay a repair because Lionel is not doing any non warranty repairs at the moment. 

While Laidoffsick brings valuable insight to smoke units, I caution you to follow them at your own risk.  Just a piece of advice. 

True Marty, it should go without saying a little judgement is required.

I stated several times in the video that it was done for "informational purposes" 

That being said, I have NEVER over saturated a smoke unit.

You will never get the volume of smoke for any length of time that you're "expecting" to see from 15-20 drops. If you are worried about warranty and getting your engine fixed, then I suggest you go by the book, but don't complain when it don't smoke enough. A little common sense is required when it comes to these smoke units the manual is the manufacturers disclaimer.

Yes you were very diligent about expressing the caution of using your technique.  Lionel is recent time has clamped down on warranty issues and in particular smoke units and smoke fluid use as been apparent by some folks reporting back on this forum. 

If smoke fluid damage to the boards is really that big an issue, they really should start designing this stuff so that any overflow does NOT get to the boards!  Even a simple plastic shield to protect the boards would be a huge improvement.  What Lionel is going is making us pay for their poor designs, that's really not right.

I will say that I've gotten plenty of engines for repair with boards soaked with smoke fluid, I've yet to have to replace a board for that reason.  I've had to clean them off, usually a generous dose of 99% Isopropyl Alcohol and a toothbrush.  The bigger issue I've run across is the insulation on the wiring gets brittle over time with smoke fluid saturation.

I know of 2 in the last month that has had to pay for the RCMC boards $120 due to Lionel saying they had smoke fluid on them...

Not Warranted even though within the warranty period.  Listen to MartyE...

Jim

That's what Lionel is saying, what's actually happening to the boards is not clear.

Yeah, I would be curious if the boards are bad or did they just need to be cleaned.  Maybe Lionel just decides to replace them instead of cleaning them?

I had a vision line big boy sent to me with a issue and the boards where soaked .. I cleaned them the engine ran fine.  

Again I guess as long as you understand the risks, you are certainly free to load up. I know laidoffsick did repeatedly cautioned this. I'm just emphasizing that Lionel is not as liberal as they once were with warranty repairs.  

Remember the "common sense"  thing I mentioned....

If you know you have put a lot of fluid in it, recently meaning a short amount of time... Do NOT turn the engine on its side or upside down. Do NOT blow a bunch of air down the stack.

Walk away, leave it alone for awhile. 

You watched me put 120 drops in my cab forward. It did NOT over flow, so...... how is your fluid gettting all over the place.

Laidoffsick posted:

Remember the "common sense"  thing I mentioned....

If you know you have put a lot of fluid in it, recently meaning a short amount of time... Do NOT turn the engine on its side or upside down. Do NOT blow a bunch of air down the stack.

Walk away, leave it alone for awhile. 

You watched me put 120 drops in my cab forward. It did NOT over flow, so...... how is your fluid gettting all over the place.

Your right i have filled some duel units with fluid that probley took about that much fluid with the shell off the engine ..Its about how you put the fluid in the unit ..

If reapir costs and warranty are a concern, and you don't want to open your enigne up, then you just have to comply with the manual. But don't complain when you don't get the smoke you "think" you should be getting.

This debate will go on and on, and both sides will remain the same

When in doubt, read the book.  Marty and John make good points.  I had the original 844 with the modular boards and now have the new 844 with the far superior RCMC boards.  They both smoke the same.  When I get back from MTH school I plan on pulling the fiberglass pad and installing the better 8 inch wicking.  p/n 691SMKP008.  I will throw something out when I finish.    Some people are much smarter than Lionel and set their own standards regarding smoke fluid.  I have a few locomotives and have no plans on screwing them up by straying very far from what the manufacturer recommends.     

I get to see many of these smoke units.

I don't always take my car to the dealer for an oil change, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express.

120 drops.  Wow.   

gunrunnerjohn posted:

SURFLINER posted:

Would you please advise us on which MTH locomotives or which type/series, etc. MTH locomotives have the very small smoke chambers?  Thanks

Stuff like the Premier VO-1000 and other small diesel switchers use the small smoke unit.  Any application where the standard smoke unit is too large probably gets the small one.

MTH Small Smoke Unit

  

Thank you for answering - much appropriated.

The OP asked for comments on the smoke output of this model, which is very relevant as the previous Legacy version of this engine is the greatest smoker I have seen from Lionel (as others have also commented on this forum in the past). The new model is a different animal and I don't find their smoke performance the same. 

The earlier version used a 6 Ohm "analog" smoke unit (I never found out why it's described as analog) that Lionel no longer stocks as a replacement part:

I'll never forget the first time I saw this unit working; it produces thick clouds of smoke and indeed smoke rings.

The new Legacy version has a dual chamber unit to run the whistle smoke feature; I don't see that Lionel has posted a replacement parts page for this engine yet but I think that the smoke unit will be the same as or similar to that one used in, for example, the last issue of the AC-12 cab forward:

My observations on the two:

1.  The newer units don't produce the same thick clouds of smoke as the old ones or at least not consistently. I have tried several different settings including ramping up the EFX. On occasion - oddly when the engine is at idle shortly after startup - the newer unit will billow out a massive amount of smoke and then return to its regular output. I am not sure if this is a design feature.

2.  Of course aside from whistle smoke there is one other feature of the new unit that the old one does not have, which is that smoke lofts out of the stacks at idle whereas the old units don't do that.

3.  The old units are heated whenever there is power to the track whereas with the new ones I think that the unit does not heat up until after the engine is addressed through the command system (I don't run mine in conventional control). It takes barely a few seconds for the smoke output to start, which suggests to me that the new units heat up very much faster than the old.

4.  The dual chamber design means that re-filling/charging the unit with smoke fluid is a bit more complicated than with the old. I find that it is best to wait a while after a re-fill so that the fluid gets into both chambers.

As to the debate over how much fluid to use, I have tried LOS's approach and it works best if you have the boiler shell off and can add fluid directly to the smoke chambers. It definitely takes a lot more than 20 drops to saturate new wicking. Although I have not kept an accurate count of how many drops I have added in this sort of exercise (it depends on the capacity of the individual unit), I reckon it's at least 60-70, which I add very slowly rather than in one go.

Finally, the quantity of fluid added is not the only relevant factor. The actual track voltage is just as important and on a carpet/temporary layout like mine there are sometimes lower voltage spots as the weight of these engines will push track connections open. After much playing around with newer Legacy engines, I think that there is a sweet spot in terms of the amount of fluid in the chamber when the smoke output will be highest and lasts (in my experience) about 20 minutes before topping up the smoke unit is necessary. Sometimes when I refill a dual chamber unit it will take 5 minutes or so of running before the smoke output gets to where I want it.

Thank you for the observations.  You were lucky as I have the same output with my new engine.  As we know, each can be a bit different.  I plan on getting into my unit and replacing the fiberglass pad in a few days.   The new wicking will be Reaganized and that should help a lot.

Great information to show the difference in each.

I will say this...

About 3 or 4 years ago someone told me if it were them, they'd open up every new engine they got and discard the pad, put in the rope, and prime the smoke unit while it's open.  Great advice if it doesn't void the warranty.

MartyE posted:

I will say this...

About 3 or 4 years ago someone told me if it were them, they'd open up every new engine they got and discard the pad, put in the rope, and prime the smoke unit while it's open.  Great advice if it doesn't void the warranty.

I did it on my brand new BigBoy .. I didnt want to but the output on the engine sucked...I didnt buy the FEF . I have the visionline challenger and bigboy.. Maybe someday I will  get a FEF . I almost bought one this weekend! Then again i guess i am a void warranty kind of person .My 2014 srt charger lasted 5 days before i started modding it and it was alot more then all my trains ...

I'm usually not worried about warranties either for the most part but a part truly fails under warranty and you want to have it replace for the price of shipping then you have to keep that in mind.  The service centers are drying up and sending it to Lionel is often the only option.  As previously stated, they have been pushing the warranty issue, in the way of the engine being even opened, pretty hard lately.  Otherwise you will have to purchase the boards needing repaired.

"I'll never forget the first time I saw this unit working; it produces thick clouds of smoke and indeed smoke rings."

You have got that right ... the first version creates enough smoke to choke a horse!

If there's a problem right out of the box or that becomes evident after a short period of running I generally would not open up the shell or at least not until after getting in contact with Mike Reagan and/or asking another real expert here or elsewhere. 

That said there have been times when I simply lost patience and took off the shell without waiting - **** the warranty, full speed ahead. Admittedly I have only done that with diesels over the past few years (the VL Centipede and a Legacy E7) after a disaster trying to self-service a VL Challenger.

It's a great advantage that there are people like AlexM or JoJoFry who will open new engines and report back what they have found.

One issue I have in the Lionel smoke unit arena is that they have used a vast range of different units over recent years and I am not sure what their respective feature sets really are.  This makes it hard to know exactly what to expect. My late model Legacy engines' smoke units seem to have a mind of their own and cranking the setting up to "High" by itself does not always produce a show-stopping display for the visitors.

To me, the REAL UP 844 does not smoke THAT much once she is running at a steady speed, and the flues are not being sanded.

I ran all three of the them today... the old 844 and the new 844 with the 8444. I can instantly notice the difference between the rope wick and the fiberglass wick. The rope style generates a heavier volume of smoke. Im gonna open up my 8444 and put the rope style in it. Don't get me wrong, the new ones smoke me out of the house, but the voulme just isn't the same from the fiberglass stuff.

The 2008 with rope style wick

The 2016 with fiberglass wick

To the OP Doug has some pretty interestingvideos about smoke units. I have learned that JT Mega Steam, half the pipette is 20 drops, or 40 I can't remember. I put usually 25-28 because I feel the smoke output on some of my engines isn't that great. But the higher the smoke out put on your VL Big Boy, the more smoke you will go through. Within 3 hours of operation, you could go through three quarters of a KMT Mega Steam 2 oz bottle.

Half a dropper for JT MegaSteam is 30 drops.  For a virgin dry smoke unit, I normally start with about 2/3 of a dropper, for recharge, I use slightly less than half.

One thing I don't know if we ever got clarification of, does using smoke fluids other than Lionel Premium void Lionel's warranty.  Not looking to get into the right or wrongs but would like to know if that is their position.  Has anyone ever heard for sure?

MartyE posted:

One thing I don't know if we ever got clarification of, does using smoke fluids other than Lionel Premium void Lionel's warranty.  Not looking to get into the right or wrongs but would like to know if that is their position.  Has anyone ever heard for sure?

I havnt tried lionels fluid yet .. If its like the fluid from the past i will pass..

jojofry posted:

I haven't tried Lionel's fluid yet .. If its like the fluid from the past i will pass..

The fluid is fine, works well, and they are coming out with scented soon.  The formula is the old TAS I believe.  I know folks have their favorites but was just curious as to what the policy maybe as it has come up in the past.  I guess it could be time to "Talk to Us".

Laidoffsick posted:

I ran all three of the them today... the old 844 and the new 844 with the 8444. I can instantly notice the difference between the rope wick and the fiberglass wick. The rope style generates a heavier volume of smoke. Im gonna open up my 8444 and put the rope style in it. Don't get me wrong, the new ones smoke me out of the house, but the voulme just isn't the same from the fiberglass stuff.

Like LOS I don't care for the fiber pads. But my 2008 issue 844 smoked better than any model before or since with the factory installed pads, in which I found that the resistor heating element was buried pretty deep. Once I had to replace the pads with new ones however the output was not as good as before but is still more substantial than the new model FEF3s. 

I assume that there are fiber pads in the new models. I haven't opened mine up yet and there's no parts diagram on the Lionel support site yet which might show if they are the stock part. 

I have not tried the rope wicking in either model yet and what LOS proposes to do by installing it in the later model may be the acid test of my theory, which is that there is a difference in output between the old and new FEF3 smoke units that is not necessarily related to the wicking material. The new units are not only built of different material but are double-chambered, have a lot more sophisticated controls and I think have a smaller overall capacity in the bowls that hold the wicking. Aside from that, in my experience across a number of newer model Legacy units the smoke output is substantially less than the 2008 FEF3. That model is still the steamer smoke champion as far as I am concerned.