Lionel Legacy fef-3 owners.....your opinion of smoke output

Postscript about the smoke units in question and then I'll shut up:

1.  The Legacy dual-chamber units I assume are used in the new FEF-3 models (see part illustration below) have 8 Ohm resistors rather than the 6 Ohm resistor in the 2008 model. The latter must run hotter and of course is in a larger chamber.

2.  The stock wicking in the newer models looks to be a fiberglass pad of sorts but the replacement part is listed as 8" rope wicking:

3.  Borrowing a couple of snapshots from Alex M that illustrate what you can gather from the above, in the new model the resistors are mounted lengthwise across a what I think is a narrower section of wicking compared to the 2008 unit:

The design differences are such that you could expect noticeably different performance but then the new units have more functions than just producing stack smoke when the engine is moving.

I used the Lionel fluid in one of the video experiments I did. It does smoke quite a bit more than the Mega Steam, but my wife can't stand the smell of it. I don't have a sense of smell, so none of it bothers me. Hopefully the new scented smoke fluid will be tolerable as it makes no difference to me.

When I did the cab Forward, going from the pre-cut pads to the rope made a huge difference. I also noticed that if you let that pad stuff get to dry and it gets crusty.... might as well yank it out. I ran my new 8444 for about 3 hours at the club and waited too long a couple times to refill (even though there was still smoke coming out) and it has made a difference. When running my dad's 844 with very little run time, compared to my 8444 with about 5 hours total, the same amount of fluid, side by side, mine has dropped significantly in smoke output. I let it get to dry and I know when I open it up, the pad will be charred .... just like my CF and 261.

Don't run them dry, turn it off or keep fluid in it  

I also notice that when the wick is really saturated, and it's been running for a bit so it's nice and hot, the fan for the whistle smoke will over power the chuff and blow smoke out the stack at the same time. Part of the design as shown from photos above, the fluid runs where it runs. The chuff side will dry out quicker, then when you blow the whistle, smoke comes out the stack too. Not saying that's bad or complaining.... just stating what it does.  

Hancock52 posted:

1.  The Legacy dual-chamber units I assume are used in the new FEF-3 models (see part illustration below) have 8 Ohm resistors rather than the 6 Ohm resistor in the 2008 model. The latter must run hotter and of course is in a larger chamber.

You assume facts not evidence.  The value of the resistor doesn't really determine anything about the amount of power dissipated in the resistor or the heat produced.  The 8 ohm resistor with the matching 8 ohm regulator likely provides more voltage (and thus equivalent power) to the smoke resistor). 

I suspect the value of the resistor was increased so that the current through the regulator triac wasn't as great for the same resistor power, that would contribute to greater reliability.  I've replaced significantly more 6 ohm voltage regulators than 8 ohm voltage regulators.  I suspect the reason is because of the greater demands on the regulator triac with the lower voltage and thus the higher current.

Things are not always as they appear.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Hancock52 posted:

1.  The Legacy dual-chamber units I assume are used in the new FEF-3 models (see part illustration below) have 8 Ohm resistors rather than the 6 Ohm resistor in the 2008 model. The latter must run hotter and of course is in a larger chamber.

You assume facts not evidence.  The value of the resistor doesn't really determine anything about the amount of power dissipated in the resistor or the heat produced.  The 8 ohm resistor with the matching 8 ohm regulator likely provides more voltage (and thus equivalent power) to the smoke resistor). 

I suspect the value of the resistor was increased so that the current through the regulator triac wasn't as great for the same resistor power, that would contribute to greater reliability.  I've replaced significantly more 6 ohm voltage regulators than 8 ohm voltage regulators.  I suspect the reason is because of the greater demands on the regulator triac with the lower voltage and thus the higher current.

Things are not always as they appear.

The main thing that appears here is the observable and marked difference in smoke output between old and new units. I'll be interested to know whether replacing the stock wicking makes a difference. I can see that substituting the 8 Ohm resistors was part of an effort to increase reliability because unfortunately I have seen several AC regulator failures with the 6 Ohm resistors (which of course leads to spectacular smoke output for a matter of seconds).

gunrunnerjohn posted:

Hancock52 posted:

1.  The Legacy dual-chamber units I assume are used in the new FEF-3 models (see part illustration below) have 8 Ohm resistors rather than the 6 Ohm resistor in the 2008 model. The latter must run hotter and of course is in a larger chamber.

You assume facts not evidence.  The value of the resistor doesn't really determine anything about the amount of power dissipated in the resistor or the heat produced.  The 8 ohm resistor with the matching 8 ohm regulator likely provides more voltage (and thus equivalent power) to the smoke resistor). 

I suspect the value of the resistor was increased so that the current through the regulator triac wasn't as great for the same resistor power, that would contribute to greater reliability.  I've replaced significantly more 6 ohm voltage regulators than 8 ohm voltage regulators.  I suspect the reason is because of the greater demands on the regulator triac with the lower voltage and thus the higher current.

Things are not always as they appear.

Are there specs for the distance between the resistor and the regulator?  Does the regulator dictate how much smoke is produced?

The thermistor is a fairly new addition to the Lionel smoke units, and the spacing does indeed affect the heat.  My VL-BB had the thermistor too close to the resistor for the blow-down steam, and the output was anemic.  Since the whistle smoke was great, I opened it up and made the blow-down spacing the same, problem solved.

The "regulator" I speak of is the voltage regulator module, it's separate from the smoke unit and regulates the power to the smoke resistor.  On the new stuff, the new FEF-3 for instance, the smoke regulator is part of the RCMC electronics board, in the earlier FEF, it was a separate module.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The "regulator" I speak of is the voltage regulator module, it's separate from the smoke unit and regulates the power to the smoke resistor.  On the new stuff, the new FEF-3 for instance, the smoke regulator is part of the RCMC electronics board, in the earlier FEF, it was a separate module.

In the new FEFs, would that mean replacing the smoke resistor would involve replacing the entire RCMC electronics board....as opposed to just the smoke unit in the 2008 version?

Berkshire President posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The "regulator" I speak of is the voltage regulator module, it's separate from the smoke unit and regulates the power to the smoke resistor.  On the new stuff, the new FEF-3 for instance, the smoke regulator is part of the RCMC electronics board, in the earlier FEF, it was a separate module.

In the new FEFs, would that mean replacing the smoke resistor [emphasis added] would involve replacing the entire RCMC electronics board....as opposed to just the smoke unit in the 2008 version?

No - in neither case does it mean replacing more than the resistor itself, which in the parts illustration copied above is the wire-wound component at the top left (part 10). If you also look at the top view of the double chamber smoke unit you'll see that there are pan head screws to which the resistors are attached (part 8 with the nuts as part 4); the 2008 unit also has such fixings.

If you mean the voltage regulator, in the 2008 version and lots of other Lionel engines that's a separate component wired to the smoke unit and can be replaced separately from it. I don't know enough about the RCMC board yet to comment on it but then I have not seen any smoke unit failures with one yet.

Ok if this engine isn't smoking enough for you tighten the screws on the resistors on the smoke pcb cause there probley loose . Change the wick to the Rope style like Marty says to do add enough to fluid to the unit to get the wick soaked .Put it back together . Done the engine will smoke you out of the room . Enjoy  I been making Lionel smoke units work better for years .. For the most part they been a lot better .

Berkshire President posted:

gunrunnerjohn posted:

The "regulator" I speak of is the voltage regulator module, it's separate from the smoke unit and regulates the power to the smoke resistor.  On the new stuff, the new FEF-3 for instance, the smoke regulator is part of the RCMC electronics board, in the earlier FEF, it was a separate module.

In the new FEFs, would that mean replacing the smoke resistor would involve replacing the entire RCMC electronics board....as opposed to just the smoke unit in the 2008 version?

You have to replace the resistor with the same specification resistor in resistance and wattage.  You can't "mix-n-match" with the AC regulator.  That applies to the 2008 version as well.

MartyE posted:

The fluid is fine, works well, and they are coming out with scented soon.  The formula is the old TAS I believe.  I know folks have their favorites but was just curious as to what the policy maybe as it has come up in the past.  I guess it could be time to "Talk to Us".

I inquired to the "Talk to Us" folks.  I haven't heard back yet.  They state they usually reply within 3 business days.  There is still a bit of time left.  I was just curious.  If I hear anything back I'll post it here.

I am a huge fan of the RCMC board.  No more chasing smoke reg issues.  

Marty, I guess they finally built a regulator that had sufficient current handling capability to properly support the smoke units.   The old regulator modules were marginal to be charitable.  They usually lasted a bit longer when they started bolting the triac to the chassis for additional power dissipation, but I had those fail as well.

The only two RCMC failures I've seen have both been shorted motors that took out the drivers.

Well still haven't heard anything to my inquiry.  If and when I do I'll post here.

Ok I did hear back. I got a very nice reply from Meghan who apologized for the delay  she was waiting for Mike to get a more definitive answer. I appreciate the response and hope you find it useful  

My question...

Good day. Based on a thread on the OGR forum, does other manufacturers smoke fluid void a warranty repair on a Lionel smoke unit? I understand, as I would expect, Lionel recommends the use of their premium fluid but is there a penalty if a smoke unit goes bad while using another fluid?

From Lionel...paraphrased

They do consider issues with smoke units from use of other brands and overfilling as abuse and misuse of the product resulting in a non warranty repair and would not be covered. Lionel highly recommends the use of their premium fluid as their products are designed to work with them. They have had many instances of having to clean circuit boards and "gunked" units from other fluid brands which is time consuming and tedious to the techs.

End of paraphrasing.

So what I got from this is yes using other fluid could cause you to loose a warranty repair status. I imagine if you smoke unit fails and you use Lionel smoke fluid you'd be fine but may not be if using another brand regardless of what the failure was. I also gather that if they find smoke fluid, regardless of the manufacturer, on circuit boards it would also result in a non warranty repair.

What does this mean?  I'm  reading it as if you expect Lionel to repair your engine under warranty your best bet is to use Lionel premium fluid to Lionel's recommended specs. Of course this is entirely up to you. 

If you don't like the answer I encourage you to contact Lionel. I imagine there has been some costs involved which may have to do with their policy. For engines under warranty I'll stick to their recommendation. I don't want to pay for parts or repairs that can be avoided. Again, if you don't like the answer I encourage you to contact Lionel.  Maybe Mike will jump in here. I hope I represented the response accurately. 

I saw some "cross-over" air blown between the chambers on my "new" FEF 838... took it apart and found that only 8" long batting is used, and it works really well ( I don't have a problem with it ) but is not effective to keep the air from the main stack or the whistle steam from bleeding over from one chamber to the other under the dividing baffle. So all I did was stick some of the old fashioned fiberglass patches down there under the baffle to cut down on the air crossing over and still maintain the wick of fluid between the two chambers.  

Yes, It'll be nice to get the parts diagram up. Looks like you can get some of the parts. I'm sure it'll get there soon enough.