Lionel Legacy K-4 Smoke Issue

Continued pressing of the smoke control for Legacy doesn't have the boost effect that it does for TMCC locomotives.

 

Since the smoke units are separate, the whistle smoke has no bearing on how much smoke you get from the main unit.

 

Could this have been run dry and cooked the wick?

Are you sure?  

Hi Bob,

 

My legacy K4 is not the best smoker either.  It seems like the fan is so strong that it dissipates the smoke too much.  I need to put a bit more fluid in it than other engines to get thicker smoke.

Pretty sure, it doesn't do anything for any of mine.  I've never seen anything mentioned about that being true, and Mike Reagan doesn't mention it in his long video on Legacy smoke unit operation either.  The controls for the Legacy smoke are quite different than for the TMCC stuff.

Thanks for the responses.

i am guilty of too much smoke fluid but not unit running dry.

maybe the strong fan idea is a part of the problem, but I can't say that it is the main problem. When the engine is running very very slow, pull out speed puffs of smoke is visible. Any faster you cannot see smoke.

if this is any help the stack feels hot to suggest the heating is ok but I don't know if that pertains to cooking the wick.

If I take it apart what would I check? 

 

bob

I forgot to say that when I add just 3 or 4 drops of fluid it will spit out.

I needed to wipe the boiler quite a few times. I did run the engine at a pretty high speed for a half hour thinking if I had too much fluid it may burn down enough to start smoking a little.

Do you add fluid while the unit is on/hot? In one if Mike's videos he mentions that if you add ambient temperature fluid it can crystallize.

Kevin is right, you need to let the unit cool for a couple of minutes at least before adding fluid.

 

If you open the smoke unit, any charring on the wick should be obvious.  Are you SURE the fan is running properly?  If you hold a match above the stack, you should be able to see the effect of the airflow.

gunrunnerjohn is right about the icon not working like the TMCC smoke button. I have noticed on  legacy engines that the smoke is not consistent from engine to engine.

Mine smokes great. Im using MTH smoke fluid. I fill up the pipette from a Mega Steam bottle, get it right in the stack, squeeze it all in and then repeatedly blow air into the stack with the pipette to clear any bubbles. In Legacy mode on High this thing smokes out the room (pretty big club room ).

However in conventional the smoke is terrible. I am going to be running mine this weekend during the NLOE open house. Since we only run conventional during shows Im going to just switch the smoke off.

I think the strong fan theory does have an effect on the smoke.  When certain lighting is in the background I can clearly tell that there is a lot of smoke being pushed out. The fan really disperses the smoke output.  I have tried Lionel Premium smoke fluid in the K4 and that seems to work better – smoke seems thicker.

 

 

Would check to see if 'taking it apart' would void your warranty.

Can someone chime in here with 'policy'?

Thanks so much for all the helpful information.

I will test the match tonight when I get home from work.

I will try blowing in the stack with the plastic oil filler I have not yet used.

I have loaded the unit while hot most of the time. Would that be the main cause?

Hey Greg want to trade? Just kidding

I will be sure to blow out all bubbles as suggested.

I will give the results tonight.

 

awesome forum.

 

bob

You're right, that wouldn't be my first step, more like the last one.

Bob,

I have 2 of these K4's.  One is prewar and one postwar.  Both smoke well, and I use mega steam in mine.  I did notice a slight difference in smoke volume between the 2 of them, but both smoke very well.  You probably already did this, but you mentioned that the smoke fluid spit out when adding it.  Do you have a bubble in the stack?  Also is the stack offset from the smoke unit (can check by using a flashlight and looking down the stack).  Are you getting a flashing cab light (on legacy locos this can denote smoke unit faults - what the number of flashes means is in your manual).  Also, a few years ago Lionel had put the fan in with the fins turning the opposite direction.  This would cause minimal smoke output also.

 

Hope you are able to find your issue.

Thanks Greg good info.

I will check the light on Cab 2 tonight and check stack for alignment. I believe my smoke is MTH it comes in a white container shaped like a train.

 

bob

I forgot about the fan running backwards, that would be an issue.  I tried that with an MTH unit on the bench, and it still smoked like a chimney, maybe the Lionel is more tuned to it running the proper way?

 

P.S. MTH smoke fluid in a Lionel train?  You expect that to work?

Mine smokes plenty on the lowest setting. Your post above the one I quoted says that you are guilty of adding too much fluid however 3 or 4 drops is not enough. I probably add a minimum of ten at every operating session. The resovoir on these is small especially since Lionel switched to those jumbo resistors and they need fluid added frequently. As far as the spitting is concerned adding fluid the night before gives it time to get down into the wicking. How many drops were you adding when the loco was new? Did it smoke well then? If not fluid enough the wicking may have gotten charred preventing it from absorbing the fluid. Depending on how good your eyes are,you can shine a light down the stack and try to look on either side of the resistor and see how wet the wicking is, if you see standing fluid then you've added to much, it should will evaporate over time.

There can't be an alignment issue as the smoke unit on this loco is mounted directly under the boiler as opposed to on the chassis. This type of smoke unit is very tedious to remove and service, far more so than the old chassis mounted type Lionel used prior. If its under warranty, and you can't find a solution with all of the suggestions posted, I would recommend sending it in unless you comfortable "tinkering" with tiny screws plugs and wires.

My K-4 Legacy blow just a little smoke, it never blow a lot of smoke like MTH locomotives the smoke from the whistle is OK, I am going to follow your sugestions guys, thanks.

You guys are awesome, this forum is awesome.

The smoke unit is working!

I shined a flash light in the stack, I can see the resister but cannot see the wick.

I did not see any smoke fluid in the stack.

I took a eye dropper and used it to blow down into the stack. I added about 10 drops of fluid, then again using the eye dropper blew into the stack.

Started the engine, while just setting the smoke began coming out well. The smoke puffs out well when engine is pulling out. When up to speed the smoke is hard to see, only areas of less light the smoke is visable. I agree that the fan is blowing to strong. I held a wooden match above the stack, the fan blew it out.

Now that it is working I will try Lionel premium brand to see if that helps.

 

Thank you all for your tips and ideas.

 

Bob

Great, sounds like you're moving in the right direction.

my legacy blue comet is a lousy smoker

Glad you got it working Bob, one last post on this before this thread drops off into oblivion.Keep in mind, I don't want to put as scare in anyone with this as there are too many varibles involved with poor smoke output.

 

My legacy k4 has always had a noisier fan than every other loco I own I lubed the fan bushing shortly after I got it a year ago and it seemed to help. The fan quit altogether over the Thanks giving holiday, so I opened it up again to see if I could get it going again. I did, though it seemed it was vibrating a bit excessively, reassembled  and the smoke unit worked. Noisier than normal I ran it to see if it would get better or worse, seemed to steadily get worse, and as it did smoke output dropped, not fan, smoke altogether. I'm no tech but my guess is that the poorly operating fan was robbing power from the resistor.

 

I just replaced the fan, WOW, huge difference, of course, but it almost seems as though the new fan while whisper quite blows a bit less forceful than the defective original, almost like the original was over revving if thats possible. I also noticed the smoke volume has noticably increased as if the resistor is getting the proper (all of) its voltage.

 

 

Last bit of info. I was getting the "3 cab light blinks" when the fan quit. This resets automatically when the loco is "reprogrammed" or power has been removed for a bit. Testing the fan with the shell off showed the fan briefly turn then stop as the smoke unit was tested and shut down the fan due to too much draw. Repairing the problem i.e. the smoke unit fan resets the diagnostic and everything works as normal.

 

There has been a bit of "unknown" regarding the "blinking light diagnostics" that had previously given (me at least) the impression that the loco would need resetting from a Lionel tech. This does not seem to be the case.

 

 

I'm not posting this to deter anyone from Lionels service, arguably the best in the hobby, and a good way to go if your still under warranty. I figure the best way for me to be able to do some repairs on my own is to try, especially with something like a smoke unit that will at the very least need new wicking at some point. All thats required is a good #1 and #0 magnetic philips screwdriver and alot of patience. I've still got work some to do on the patience which I've been trying to aquire from other members.

 

Thank you Rick for this very good information. I will keep an eye on the cab light to see if it starts blinking.

 

Bob

I have a video of the K4 smoking well on YouTube along with my layout and additional trains.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bkgEqUP2L8