Is there an approximate runtime before these gear boxes would go bad? And, is anyone performing the fix, and if so about how much would it cost?
@Paul Kallus posted:Is there an approximate runtime before these gear boxes would go bad? And, is anyone performing the fix, and if so about how much would it cost?
Going bad would entirely depend on turns and how long you would run them for. I think Rick said the more turning involved the more the wearing will start, but I forget which way. Regardless, it will wear with more turns back and forth definitely.
@Larry Mullen posted:Hi Pat,
When you say "early Legacy K4," that doesn't mean the pre-war version, I'm assuming?? Just early off of the line? If I/we take a picture of what we have, can you identify from the pic if it's a possible lemon?
I think he specifically includes the PRR Pre-war model, I have one with that gearbox, the Pennsylvania Prewar LEGACY Scale 4-6-2 K-4 #3667. I've already swapped the chassis of the identical model for a customer for this issue, that's why Pat has an extra broken chassis! I keep a spare K4 chassis in the closet, I've already done a few of these over the last few years.
Are we starting a list of known problem models?
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Are we starting a list of known problem models?
I have popped a list of what was considered the possible list on page two John. We haven't really started to compile enough information other than the 2011 K4's with the gearbox issue and the H10 being another potential issue. Rick noted only that the new gearbox design can be noted by looking through the spokes but that doesn't tell what is going on inside of course as Pat and Pete pointed out that some have been modified with the spacer/bracket.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Are we starting a list of known problem models?
That’s what I want this thread to be,….I’ve got the two written down, …the early Legacy K4s, and the Legacy H10,……we’ve excluded a few models, as well, rather than cloud up the list, if it ain’t on the list, it’s good to go,…..I need to learn about the other K4 offerings, like the one in the funeral train set, etc,…..I’d like to do it by item number, so it’s clear as a bell, with out any gray areas…
Pat
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I have popped a list of what was considered the possible list on page two John. We haven't really started to compile enough information other than the 2011 K4's with the gearbox issue and the H10 being another potential issue. Rick noted only that the new gearbox design can be noted by looking through the spokes but that doesn't tell what is going on inside of course as Pat and Pete pointed out that some have been modified with the spacer/bracket.
What’s the last K4 offered Dave?….Legacy scale of course,…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:What’s the last K4 offered Dave?….Legacy scale of course,…..
Pat
The last one was in 2018 with the long haul tender that headed the 1930 Broadway Limited set, item 6-84816. I think this is also the only one that was included with Bluetooth as of writing.
Thanks Thomas, ….peeking at Dave’s list ( thank you Dave!) I’d say it’s safe to assume all of the 2011 run would be suspect models for problems…..now, what we need to see is all the others,….so we need examples from 2013 to 2018 ….again, I do not want wide spread panic, …..y’all know how this forum can roll,….next thing we know, the sky will be falling……
Pat
@Mikado 4501 posted:The last one was in 2018 with the long haul tender that headed the 1930 Broadway Limited set, item 6-84816. I think this is also the only one that was included with Bluetooth as of writing.
The Funeral set is after this. However, I have yet to confirm it is missing a bushing like the early ones.
Lionel item # is: 1922030.
@rplst8 posted:The Funeral set is after this. However, I have yet to confirm it is missing a bushing like the early ones.
Lionel item # is: 1922030.
Can you open yours up?..
Pat
@rplst8 posted:The Funeral set is after this. However, I have yet to confirm it is missing a bushing like the early ones.
Lionel item # is: 1922030.
Here’s the deal, …if you can open yours up, and it’s the same as the 2011 run, then it’s game, set, match, the entire line of K4’s is now suspect to failure, …..if you open yours up, and find a thick spacer next to the worm wheel, opposite the spur gear, then we know we have to back up to find where they made the change……see my point??…
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Thanks Thomas, ….peeking at Dave’s list ( thank you Dave!) I’d say it’s safe to assume all of the 2011 run would be suspect models for problems…..now, what we need to see is all the others,….so we need examples from 2013 to 2018 ….again, I do not want wide spread panic, …..y’all know how this forum can roll,….next thing we know, the sky will be falling……
Pat
I have both Long Haul Tenders and the Broadway Limited. I just hope I can open them up without cracking stuff to pieces. Fat chance getting it done during the week, it'll have to wait until sometime Saturday. I have the later Mike's offered, the NYC & PRR I think from 2016 as well as the latest ones, I think 4501 in black from 2018?? Where's that list?
@harmonyards posted:That’s what I want this thread to be,….I’ve got the two written down, …the early Legacy K4s, and the Legacy H10,……we’ve excluded a few models, as well, rather than cloud up the list, if it ain’t on the list, it’s good to go,…..I need to learn about the other K4 offerings, like the one in the funeral train set, etc,…..I’d like to do it by item number, so it’s clear as a bell, with out any gray areas…
Pat
Are we already sure of the H10?
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:I have both Long Haul Tenders and the Broadway Limited. I just hope I can open them up without cracking stuff to pieces. Fat chance getting it done during the week, it'll have to wait until sometime Saturday. I have the later Mike's offered, the NYC & PRR I think from 2016 as well as the latest ones, I think 4501 in black from 2018?? Where's that list?
Dave, if you’re not comfortable opening them up, don’t do it, …..to be sure there’s plenty of techs and DIY guys that can open one up…..I don’t want folks wrecking their stuff….
Pat
@gunrunnerjohn posted:Are we already sure of the H10?
Judging by what Rick pictured, I’d have to say yes at the very moment,……however, it can be subject to change if we can get one opened up,…..Rick only peeked through the base plate,…..it’d be nice to see that idler shaft from the top view…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:Judging by what Rick pictured, I’d have to say yes at the very moment,……however, it can be subject to change if we can get one opened up,…..Rick only peeked through the base plate,…..it’d be nice to see that idler shaft from the top view…..
Pat
I went back and reviewed the thread, and I have to say you're right. I forgot that was the H10, so apparently I have two more than need a "fix". This is getting absurd!
I liked the sound of the shim you just drop in with the flat side that rides against the gearbox cover to keep it from rotating and/or falling off. That would be a simple repair. Drilling holes in the side of the gearbox, OTOH, is a bit more tricky...
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I went back and reviewed the thread, and I have to say you're right. I forgot that was the H10, so apparently I have two more than need a "fix". This is getting absurd!
I liked the sound of the shim you just drop in with the flat side that rides against the gearbox cover to keep it from rotating and/or falling off. That would be a simple repair. Drilling holes in the side of the gearbox, OTOH, is a bit more tricky...
I get it, and I wanted it to be an infield repair as well,…however, by the math, both the sample you had sent, and the first test rig sent by David Ross, there is not going to be a one size fits all solution…..the variance between the two samples was .018…..that’s a lot for a one size fits all solution,……popping a hole in the side of the gear box is child’s play for me,…..so the easiest remedy is a one piece arm that’s both trapped from the gear box cover ( or motor mount if you will ) and a screw to further lock it in place…..the variable is the shim installed on the end of the arm, that’s where I make up the math…….and further, having a bushing on the end of the arm, that rides up against the shaft assembly lessons the drag to the point you don’t even realize it’s there…….David Ross’s showed up with total disengagement, but only had wear similar to the sample you had sent, …..the arm installation put the gear back in the middle, and all is well, ….heck, the worm gear doesn’t even come close to the worn portion now………his locomotive is running well again……it seems these pups start kicking the shaft out and keep on trucking till the worm wheel eventually moves clear out of the way of the worm gear……the screw in the side of the gear box I call cheap insurance…..the part can’t fall off and jam up a gear box and more than likely wipe out a driver…..so the only suck part of this is, yeah, the chassis are gonna have to come to me for fitment, but the plus side for guys like you John, you can strip it down to nothing and send it that way……just like the poor pig you sent me for testing…..but that chassis now you can put back in service,……it will go again…..😉
Pat
So who's gonna open up one of those VL 2-10-10-2's?
I believe those have 2 of these reduction gear setups.
@RickO posted:So who's gonna open up one of those VL 2-10-10-2's?
I believe those have 2 of these reduction gear setups.
Rick, I’d be willing to bet those will be ok,…..we’re clearly seeing an improved gear box as far back as the Legacy Berks, and up to the ATSF Northerns,……the Legacy Mohawks look good too,…..obviously they seen an issue somewhere along the lines, …but doubt we’ll ever get the story,….😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:..so the only suck part of this is, yeah, the chassis are gonna have to come to me for fitment, but the plus side for guys like you John, you can strip it down to nothing and send it that way……just like the poor pig you sent me for testing…..but that chassis now you can put back in service,……it will go again…..😉
I'm lazy, and if there's a solution that doesn't require me to totally strip the chassis and then reassemble it again, that's going to look attractive! You end up ****ing away several hours to strip and rebuild, it turns it into a somewhat expensive job.
@harmonyards posted:Rick, I’d be willing to bet those will be ok,…..we’re clearly seeing an improved gear box as far back as the Legacy Berks, and up to the ATSF Northerns,……the Legacy Mohawks look good too,…..obviously they seen an issue somewhere along the lines, …but doubt we’ll ever get the story,….😉
Pat
Let's hope so. My concern is that the H10 came along a few years after those 3 models. I don't have time to open the top at the moment. Maybe John will. The worm wheel stops a distance from the side of the gearbox. I wonder if there's a spacer ,but it just isn't wide enough.
@gunrunnerjohn posted:I'm lazy, and if there's a solution that doesn't require me to totally strip the chassis and then reassemble it again, that's going to look attractive! You end up ****ing away several hours to strip and rebuild, it turns it into a somewhat expensive job.
Technically, I’ll need to do is open the gear box, install arm, trim the bushing, locate one hole, and Ta-da…..it can be noninvasive …..sounds like the mail man does most of the work,….I just can’t see cut washers, plastic bread bag clips, etc. being a longevity fix, ….but, …..to each his own!….😉
Pat
@RickO posted:Let's hope so. My concern is that the H10 came along a few years after those 3 models. I don't have time to open the top at the moment. Maybe John will. The worm wheel stops a distance from the side of the gearbox. I wonder if there's a spacer ,but it just isn't wide enough.
True, this is all still evolving, but if I can develop a fix for those models that otherwise would require an expensive chassis swap, with potentially the same repeat cycle, then it’s all worth it,…..
Pat
@harmonyards posted:True, this is all still evolving, but if I can develop a fix for those models that otherwise would require an expensive chassis swap, with potentially the same repeat cycle, then it’s all worth it,….
And that assumes the chassis is even available!!! 
@RickO posted:So who's gonna open up one of those VL 2-10-10-2's?
I believe those have 2 of these reduction gear setups.
We could ask Bruk if he noticed when he took a look at his. @Bruk Hey Bruk, did you notice anything that is being covered here on the gearing in the 2-10-10-2?
Inside Lionel's latest Vision Line 2-10-10-2
@harmonyards posted:Dave, if you’re not comfortable opening them up, don’t do it, …..to be sure there’s plenty of techs and DIY guys that can open one up…..I don’t want folks wrecking their stuff….
Pat
Well, I was able to do the work on the Atlantic's to tape down the wires so that they didn't rub against the motor. If I feel I can get a look, I will, if I see stuff I don't feel I can touch, I will just pop it back together. Most likely you are on the money with me not being able to have a look.
@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:We could ask Bruk if he noticed when he took a look at his. @Bruk Hey Bruk, did you notice anything that is being covered here on the gearing in the 2-10-10-2?
Inside Lionel's latest Vision Line 2-10-10-2
Well, I was able to do the work on the Atlantic's to tape down the wires so that they didn't rub against the motor. If I feel I can get a look, I will, if I see stuff I don't feel I can touch, I will just pop it back together. Most likely you are on the money with me not being able to have a look.
In no way did I mean that to be rude Dave,…heck, there’s some engines I don’t want to open up…..ever…😉
Pat
@harmonyards posted:In no way did I mean that to be rude Dave,…heck, there’s some engines I don’t want to open up…..ever…😉
Pat
Pat, you weren't rude at all. My usual work ethic is much like my late Uncle Eddie's, I take a peak, see what I can see, if I can work it, I will. If things get out of hand, I tend to lose my temper(usually with much larger not so delicate equipment not trains). If I know I can't do it, it will easily be slapped back together and wait until someone tells me that what I have will need to be fixed, like my H10.
@harmonyards posted:In no way did I mean that to be rude Dave,…heck, there’s some engines I don’t want to open up…..ever…😉
AAMOF, there are engines that I don't want to open up again... EVER. The Legacy 6-11224 #460 Lindbergh Special from 2010 is one such engine. That was one of the most crammed models I've ever had the displeasure to work on!
@RickO posted:So who's gonna open up one of those VL 2-10-10-2's?
I believe those have 2 of these reduction gear setups.
I bet it's fine. Of the locomotives that have been opened in this thread with a large motor in the firebox, a dogbone drive shaft, and a separate worm shaft (Legacy early Lima Berkshire, Legacy NYC Mohawk, Legacy ATSF 3751 class Northern) all of them have had a bushing next to the worm wheel to center it. You can see it in my Legacy ATSF Northern:
https://ogrforum.com/...1#159096765317343561
I bet the new 2-10-10-2s are the same.
@harmonyards posted:In no way did I mean that to be rude Dave,…heck, there’s some engines I don’t want to open up…..ever…😉
Pat
*Cough-Lionel Niagara-Cough*
Well I don’t know if it was on the radar but I can confirm that the new legacy Pacific’s are ok. Found the same trimmed down worm instead of a shaft going into the bearing. Also wasn’t impressed with placement of the grease. It was, as typically all bunched up next to the worm wheel, had to move it out of the way anyway to get a picture and found a spacer on the intermittent shaft. Wiggles a little but nothing crazy
SKU 2131300
PS: anyone see this size motor in a steamer before I see no Canon markings so I don’t know if that’s good or if we got something worse…
Attachments
Images (3)
Looks like they are going back to a Buehler motor. Early on when Pittmans became unaffordable a few engines got Buehlers like the Vision 700E. The TMCC Pacifics made in the early 2000 that provided the dies for these came with big Pittmans.
Pete
@Norton posted:Looks like they are going back to a Buehler motor. Early on when Pittmans became unaffordable a few engines got Buehlers like the Vision 700E. The TMCC Pacifics made in the early 2000 that provided the dies for these came with big Pittmans.
Pete
So far nothing has been able to touch a Pittman but maybe these Buehler’s will hold up, fingers crossed better than Canon. So far I have not had a lack of pulling power out of this pacific. It didn’t miss a beat with 35 car freight on a 3.125% grade
Considering the Vision 700E I have is still enduring well a decade after it was first released and I haven't heard of any particular issue with the Buehler's compared to the Canon's, I think they'll be alright for awhile.
@zhubl posted:Well I don’t know if it was on the radar but I can confirm that the new legacy Pacific’s are ok. Found the same trimmed down worm instead of a shaft going into the bearing. Also wasn’t impressed with placement of the grease. It was, as typically all bunched up next to the worm wheel, had to move it out of the way anyway to get a picture and found a spacer on the intermittent shaft. Wiggles a little but nothing crazy
SKU 2031300
PS: anyone see this size motor in a steamer before I see no Cannon markings so I don’t know if that’s good or if we got something worse…
Fantastic!….thanks for taking the time to pull your locomotive apart!…..we can certainly chop off these Pacifics from being trouble makers,…..we are slowly but surely narrowing the list of good & bad…..
Pat
This is a perfect example of why this forum is so great. We have so many guys here punching above their weight class. It’s like going to a symposium. I am in awe. Thankfully, I don’t have any Lionel big steam to worry about, but, it sure is nice there’s this repository of skill and knowledge to be able to turn to.
@zhubl posted:So far nothing has been able to touch a Pittman but maybe these Buehler’s will hold up, fingers crossed better than Cannon. So far I have not had a lack of pulling power out of this pacific. It didn’t miss a beat with 35 car freight on a 3.125% grade
Buehler (Bühler) are good motors. Like Maxon they were originally made in Europe though I am not sure all models are still made there. Even European companies have moved some production to Asia. So far few if any failures reported in engines where they have been used.
Pete
I'd certainly be happy if they lose the Canon exploding motors and go to the Bühler motors!
@Norton posted:Buehler (Bühler) are good motors. Like Maxon they were originally made in Europe though I am not sure all models are still made there. Even European companies have moved some production to Asia. So far few if any failures reported in engines where they have been used.
Pete
Wasn't there some talk about these motors failing in the Vision CC2s 0-8-8-0's when pulling heavy trains?
