Lionel Legacy NW2

Dave Olson posted:

As stated multiple times above, this is NOT the sound set that will ship with this engine. This is the S2 switcher sound set being used for testing purposes. The sound set has NOT been developed yet.

Dave, would you and the Lionel team be open to sound suggestions? Because, as I said before, I think the sounds from the Pioneer Zephyr you guys put out a few years ago would sound great in a switcher engine. I was just comparing the sounds from the Zephyr and Milwaukee Road 1649, and they sound fairly similar.

Just a thought. Best wishes to you and the Lionel team!

MichRR714 posted:

jonnyspeed posted:

As stated multiple times above, this is NOT the sound set that will ship with this engine. This is the S2 switcher sound set being used for testing purposes. The sound set has NOT been developed yet.

I will give you the benefit of the doubt Dave. Historically though Lionel gets the sound wrong as often as they get it right. I hope you can change that because the quality of the sounds are excellent.

You need to give him more than the benefit of the doubt.  If you had taken the time to examine the thread you would have known this was a test soundset and not the one that will be used.

I don't need to do anything thank you very much. Test sound or not Lionel has historically NOT done specific prime mover sounds, horns, or whistles for every model. Sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. If they do that's great. If they don't but it doesn't bother you that's great too. Either way, I'm still glad I didn't BTO.

I'm looking forward to hearing the soundset that Rudy and Lionel put together for the NW2.  Keep up the good work!

Mayhaps Milwaukee road charlie?

I saw the active demonstrations at April York and was very impressed with the sample of this newly redesigned Yard Switcher....The Lionel Team ran this engine demoing the features...Really glad I ordered the CSXT SAFETY version...It seems to me that Lionel is really trying to Please us operators that want Realistic Sounds and Scale Like Operation....Thank You Dave and Ryan and the Team....

I do have a question, is this a single can motor or two can motors?

Did anyone say when the shipping date would BE? I am excited!!

My Lionchief plus NW2 has the step on the hood. Why was the decision made to not include this design variation? Its one of the details I really like about the old NW2 body.

SuperChiefer84 posted:

My Lionchief plus NW2 has the step on the hood. Why was the decision made to not include this design variation? Its one of the details I really like about the old NW2 body.

An EXCELLENT question!  Who makes such decisions anyway?

Ryan Kunkle made the correct decision to make this previously unproduced variation.

Charlie

Charlie posted:

Ryan Kunkle made the correct decision to make this previously unproduced variation.

Charlie

Well, Charlie, that is your opinion. My opinion is different, because the correct available road names are thus limited with the "later design" NW2. To each his own.

While I applaud the improvements that Lionel is engineering into this switch engine I just don't understand why they would build a "later model" body and then offer engines that existed in the earlier model with the stepped hood.  I just don't understand the inaccuracy.  

What is not OPINION and fact is that this is new tooling being introduced. Its all well and good to moan and groan, but the reality is, new tooling is few and far between these days. 

MTH did the NW2, in Railking Scale. A very nice platform to actually do some modeling if you wish.

Ok, so here is my opinion (just so there is no confusion). I would be willing to bet that the same discussion would be taking place if Lionel had introduced the stepped cowling with the same people bemoaning that Lionel never does anything different.

Here they do something different and and they still get crap. 

It was not too long ago when Lionel was getting crap for NOT doing the later version of the Bigboy. Here they do the later version and they still get crap.

Charlie

Charlie posted:

What is not OPINION and fact is that this is new tooling being introduced. Its all well and good to moan and groan, but the reality is, new tooling is few and far between these days. 

MTH did the NW2, in Railking Scale. A very nice platform to actually do some modeling if you wish.

Ok, so here is my opinion (just so there is no confusion). I would be willing to bet that the same discussion would be taking place if Lionel had introduced the stepped cowling with the same people bemoaning that Lionel never does anything different.

Here they do something different and and they still get crap. 

It was not too long ago when Lionel was getting crap for NOT doing the later version of the Bigboy. Here they do the later version and they still get crap.

Charlie

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie,

You seem to be missing the point that a number of the specific road names listed in the Lionel catalog are NOT correct for the NW2 depicted. Besides, so what if it is "all new tooling", when Lionel apparently had the "correct tooling" for the original version of the famous EMD NW2?

Trying to compare this to the incorrect versions of the UP 4000 class locomotives is really just silly! After all the national hype over the UP 4014 benign moved from Pomona, California to the Cheyenne Steam Shop for complete restoration, then Lionel comes out with Vision Line models, of each road number saved (except for #4023), and yet the model are all in the "as originally delivered" configuration, tended to show that the Lionel folks had NOT done sufficient research. Even their "high end model" of the 4014 with the depleting coal load, does NOT represent #4014 as she exists today, nor how she will be rebuilt to look.

I thought the point of the new tooling was to make each engine road specific. 

There is a Wealth of Knowledge on this Forum, so, even if this NW2 is not 100% Road Specific, I just want to know how I can Really Hide the 3Rd Rail, duh? So, when we are operating Trains, with Friends, I Wager to say, The subject will never come up??? I am very Happy with the Operational capabilities, no complaints on my end....I realize the high cost of Tooling, We are fortunate that Lionel is Trying to Please the vast Majority....Wow!

"I thought the point of the new tooling was to make each engine road specific."

Dave, that is exactly what I thought.  Yes new tooling is great, horizontal drive arrangment is great, kadee mounting pads are GREAT, larger speaker is GREAT, but then they blew it by offering engines that did not have the the fully slanted hood!  All they had to do was not offer ATSF 2405 or UP 1011 and whatever other older NW2s are in the catalog.  If Lionel is attempting to establish a reputation for offering engines with a higher level of road specific details then they have to be more attentive to those details.  I am a Lionel supporter but not a blind consumer.  To each their own, for those that are fine with the hood on the ATSF and UP engines then I am sure they will be very happy with this engine.  Everyone enjoys this hobby on their own terms.

If it was a $200 engine, I could over look the inaccuracies, but an engine in the $500 range, it should be right, or don't offer it.

For me, it comes down to the prices that are being charged for something that is not right. I have and O&W NW2 on order, and I know I will be a bit disappointed with it now. Once again in the catalog it says "Road Specific Details". In my book, that says, this engine will be prototypically correct. If it is not, it should not have said it in the catalog.

For the price point, the RailKing O&W NW2 switcher is great. Is it 100% right? No, but the price makes it worth overlooking a few things.

I understand

Hot Water posted:

Charlie posted:

What is not OPINION and fact is that this is new tooling being introduced. Its all well and good to moan and groan, but the reality is, new tooling is few and far between these days. 

MTH did the NW2, in Railking Scale. A very nice platform to actually do some modeling if you wish.

Ok, so here is my opinion (just so there is no confusion). I would be willing to bet that the same discussion would be taking place if Lionel had introduced the stepped cowling with the same people bemoaning that Lionel never does anything different.

Here they do something different and and they still get crap. 

It was not too long ago when Lionel was getting crap for NOT doing the later version of the Bigboy. Here they do the later version and they still get crap.

Charlie

Charlie, Charlie, Charlie,

You seem to be missing the point that a number of the specific road names listed in the Lionel catalog are NOT correct for the NW2 depicted. Besides, so what if it is "all new tooling", when Lionel apparently had the "correct tooling" for the original version of the famous EMD NW2?

 

Exactly...

FINE, produce new locomotive tooling.  But then don't produce it in un-prototypical paint schemes like the NYO&W!  It seems to me all the effort to produce a specific body variation then offer it totally wrong of a specific railroad with a different variation is counterproductive.  

CentralFan1976 posted:

I understand

Exactly...

FINE, produce new locomotive tooling.  But then don't produce it in un-prototypical paint schemes like the NYO&W!  It seems to me all the effort to produce a specific body variation then offer it totally wrong of a specific railroad with a different variation is counterproductive.  

One hundred percent agreed!  I couldn't have said it better myself.

Maybe Lionel is planning on using the same basic tooling with changes to the cab windows in front(rectangular instead of domed) for a SW7 and maybe a SW9. Would not be the first time they have done that - look at the GP7/GP9.

The simple fix would be to do what other manufacturers have done - note the fantasy or non-prototypical paint schemes in the catalog. The problem is that I'm not sure if they know what is and is not prototypical.

Historically, O scale was more forgiving. These days the consumers are more educated and they see the quality and accuracy of models in other scales and they want the same commitment from O scale manufacturers. Ironically, MTH and Lionel did this to themselves. The advent of scale models in the 90's changed the game. I went along for the ride myself.

MTH already supports 2 rail operation. Lionel could easily follow suite as their electronics are ready for it.

I still feel that Lionel should embrace a 2 rail high-rail option at some point. For many reasons that I won't go into here.

Sorry for the derail. Resume the discussion...

Just wondering if Dave or someone at Lionel could give us an update on the NW2. Is it on the water yet? Thanks!

Harry's Trains posted:

Just wondering if Dave or someone at Lionel could give us an update on the NW2. Is it on the water yet? Thanks!

No, we haven't done the code for it yet. It will be the last Legacy engine made from the 2017 Signature catalog. This will likely not ship until November.

Thanks, Dave! Take the time to do it right. Make the wait worth it.

jonnyspeed posted:

The simple fix would be to do what other manufacturers have done - note the fantasy or non-prototypical paint schemes in the catalog. The problem is that I'm not sure if they know what is and is not prototypical.

Generally other firms make that note when a railroad didn't have that class of locomotive or rolling stock at all. Lionel would need to have an entire explanation on the variation. That could certainly confuse things.

I agree with Charlie, Lionel made the right decision to choose the never before released version of the NW2, but some of the paint schemes offered were the wrong decision when you consider road name specific details on new tooling is the new norm from Lionel on scale locomotives. I could have ordered a paint scheme/road number that was correct for this NW2 version, but I figured Lionel would have tooled for modular tooling to account for these variations.

In the case of the NYO&W NW2, the engine still exists, that makes the specific road number/road name combo more popular but mistakes more obvious.

I would rather wait longer for the product and know it is correct than see Lionel rush and get it quickly. But that's just me personally.

I am with Centralfan1976. These bto's have left a bitter taste in my mouth from the GP9's not correctly done in PRR to "40ft " trailers ( which are nearly non existent in o SCALE to begin with) made to 37.5' to this anticipated o scale nw2 with the later body style that the PRR DIDN'T have. At $500+/ unit it Better be right like an Atlas O loco since I don't make $500 in a snap of a finger. Next catalog and going forward I will take a wait and see approach. 

*puts on Kevlar vest*

I know there has be a lot of noise about the stepped hood. Truth is that it was an oversight. Ryan and I know a lot about trains and it simply was a detail we both missed until this thread. Was too focused on the redesign of the mechanical and electronics I guess. That said, don't rule out that we won't ever do the stepped hood version.

I thought I would post a video with the finalized sound set. The prime mover comes from a direct recording of a NW2. I wish the video could better convey how great this sounds in person with the better speaker arrangement.

Thanks

@Dave Olson awesome sound set! Love that horn and prime mover sounds. Was the horn recorded from a NW2 too? 

Trainlover9943 posted:

@Dave Olson awesome sound set! Love that horn and prime mover sounds. Was the horn recorded from a NW2 too? 

First, EXCELLENT prime mover (EMD 12 cylinder Diesel engine) sounds!!!

Second, that is not the correct horn sound for early EMD switchers. Note that the model does appear to have the correct single trumpet "small" horn, which would not be as deep a "blatt" as the horn sound in the video.

Third, note that the model is equipped with a steam locomotive type of "swinging bell", thus the bell sound in the video does not match the sound of a "steam locomotive type" swinging bell. The bell sound in the video is more representative of today's modern air operated, inside clapper type of bell.

Dave Olson posted:

*puts on Kevlar vest*

I know there has be a lot of noise about the stepped hood. Truth is that it was an oversight. Ryan and I know a lot about trains and it simply was a detail we both missed until this thread. Was too focused on the redesign of the mechanical and electronics I guess. That said, don't rule out that we won't ever do the stepped hood version.

I thought I would post a video with the finalized sound set. The prime mover comes from a direct recording of a NW2. I wish the video could better convey how great this sounds in person with the better speaker arrangement.

Thanks

 

Find yourself a set of dedicated modelers who are willing to help. Have them sign an NDA if you must, and have them review CAD and/or graphics for items that they are "experts"/interested in. Will reduce oversights.

Its cool to see the smoke out of that small thing. I'd have to research phases, but whenever the prototypical Southern one comes out in gold leaf black tux, I am in for one or two. Keep up the work.

I can't wait to add the PBNE to my Bethlehem Steel layout moving the slag cars and hot metal cars around the room.

THANK YOU @Dave Olson for taking time to make videos and respond to us "forumites"!

Love those sounds, Dave! Can't wait to have the Milwaukee Road model on my layout. When I first saw the catalog, I didn't notice the step hood was missing, either, but it doesn't bother me.

Kudos on the prime mover sounds Dave. It's nice to see you guys went out and got the correct sound. I think there is room for improvement possibly in the speaker department for more low end, but that's just me being picky. I'm sure that will be good for most people.

Dave Olson posted:

*puts on Kevlar vest*

 

Hi Dave,

I was wondering if you guys will be adding synchronized diesel exhaust with the RPM sounds to the diesel models. You guys had it on the Vision ES44ac, I know that you had a separate board that ran it. But I know the RCMC can be programed to do this unless I'm wrong. In my eyes if you can program it to quill and chuff I'm sure it can be programed to perform similar function of the vision es44ac smoke unit. Adding this to the standard line would be the equivalent of having whistle steam effect. I feel like its been an overlooked feature on diesel models.

Thanks for listening.

Bruk posted:

Dave Olson posted:

*puts on Kevlar vest*

 

Hi Dave,

I was wondering if you guys will be adding synchronized diesel exhaust with the RPM sounds to the diesel models. You guys had it on the Vision ES44ac, I know that you had a separate board that ran it. But I know the RCMC can be programed to do this unless I'm wrong. In my eyes if you can program it to quill and chuff I'm sure it can be programed to perform similar function of the vision es44ac smoke unit. Adding this to the standard line would be the equivalent of having whistle steam effect and feel like its been an overlooked feature on diesel models.

Thanks for listening.

 

An interesting concept. However, there is a BIG difference between the "diesel exhaust" of a GE ES44ac unit with a turbocharged 16 cylinder 4400 HP four stroke cycle diesel, and that poor little 12 cylinder roots blown EMD two stroke cycle 1200HP Diesel engine in the NW2. 

Hot Water posted:

Bruk posted:

Dave Olson posted:

*puts on Kevlar vest*  

An interesting concept. However, there is a BIG difference between the "diesel exhaust" of a GE ES44ac unit with a turbocharged 16 cylinder 4400 HP four stroke cycle diesel, and that poor little 12 cylinder roots blown EMD two stroke cycle 1200HP Diesel engine in the NW2. 

I'm aware, its a general suggestion. Just from seeing videos of engine start ups and watching in person switching or mainline locos ripping on the throttles with plumes of diesel smoke coming out of the exhaust stacks would be a cool feature to have on any diesel model. Heck if you can turn the feature on/off from simulate Rev's to constant stream of smoke why not do that too (which Lionel could do). This would be an easy feature for them to add since it would not require any hardware but only Software changes and synchronization with the sound system.

Dave,

Thanks for the update. I was starting to wonder about this engine.

John D. posted:

I can't wait to add the PBNE to my Bethlehem Steel layout moving the slag cars and hot metal cars around the room.

THANK YOU @Dave Olson for taking time to make videos and respond to us "forumites"!

 John - I totally agree. I am in the planning stages of my layout and adding a Bethlehem Steel section on the layout. I hope they make more of these, so that I can have a little fleet of PBNE motive power. 

Chris 

Nice video update. I hope the smoke comes out of BOTH stacks and not pull an "MTH" where smoke only comes out of one stack or two if the model has 4 stacks..

prrhorseshoecurve posted:

Nice video update. I hope the smoke comes out of BOTH stacks and not pull an "MTH" where smoke only comes out of one stack or two if the model has 4 stacks..

It smokes out of both. 

Hopefully it should look like this