Lionel Legacy or MTH UP 4-12-2

My personal choice, and the one I purchased is; MTH. Second choice would be the Sunset/3rd Rail later version. In my opinion, the MTH model has the absolute BEST sound of that "off-beat" three cylinder exhaust, plus the MTH (and the Sunset/3rd Rail) model has the working third cylinder valve gear assembly on the front pilot deck, whereas the Lionel model third cylinder valve gear doesn't move.

 

My MTH model tracks beautifully, however my layout is all 072 or larger curves.

I don't have this engine but have been thinking about getting the Legacy version.

 

Eric Siegel's review of that model is comprehensive: see it here

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s00DwtXMh50

 

The differences between the Legacy version and MTH's in terms of sound and the cylinder valve gear are well documented. Of course the Legacy version has a smoking whistle . . .

At this point in time, Lionel's Legacy Railsounds are in a league of their own.  End of discussion. 

 

As a previous poster noted, the newest Lionel version also has whistle-steam -- a wonderful feature that has apparently been relegated to availability on Lionel's most premium-priced Vision Line locomotives going forward. 

 

Availability of Lionel's UP #9000 (in old UP livery) has improved with a second production run that became available earlier this year after being rumored for much of 2012, following the initially small production run during Spring 2012.  Most of the larger dealers seem to have it in-stock.  There's also a fantasy "greyhound version", which Lionel also numbered as #9000  , along with another classic black version numbered #9004 (which may be tougher to come by these days).  But I'd love to see #9000 and #9004 double-headed... that would be a terrific sight!!!

 

I was surprised to see some pretty aggressive pricing on Lionel's second production run so recently after its release.  Even Lionel's webstore had a great sale price below $1K at one point.  But that only proves how sluggish this market is right now, given relatively high inventory levels.

 

The only "negative" (if you can call it that) comment I'd make about the locomotive is I had hoped Lionel would have used more "separately applied details" (like they did with the Berkshire) rather than re-issue the 2002-version with it's cast-in pipe details.  But I suppose the Legacy Railsounds and whistle-steam feature make up for that deficiency.

 

Overall, it's a fabulous locomotive... so enjoy!!!

 

David

I would guess the primary question is what command system do you already have?

 

Secondly do you want operating "Gresley Valve Gear" as Hot Water points out or an apparent steam leak through the boiler cladding near whistle (which I think you will be also seeing in an up and coming MTH big steam release, especially since they introduced this concept at York 5 or 6 years ago.)

Which version has the most accurate whistle?  

 

Please correct if I'm wrong:  If one wants to change the sounds on a MTH engine, one can do that by downloading a different one from MTH's website.  With Lionel one is stuck with the installed sounds.  For example; Lionel's Legacy UP Big Boy has the incorrect whistle.  One cannot change the sound of that whistle unless Lionel offers a new sound chip.

 

Hence my question on the sounds of both of these models.  I'm not sure if the Lionel version has the correct whistle.

 

Steve

Well, THAT really limits the field then! Hands down it would be MTH, since they actually went out to a contracted "whistle blow event" (with NKP 765) and they got a GREAT recording of the Union Pacific freight "Star Brass" whistle. The standard UP freight whistle should NOT be confused with the 800, 3900, and 4000 class Manning, Maxwell & Moore deep sounding "steam boat" whistle. 

 

Surprisingly, MTH first released the 4-12-2 models with the INCORRECT "Big Boy" whistle. The MTH sound folks quickly produced an alter net "sound file" for the 4-12-2 models, with the correct "Star Brass" whistle sounds.

 

I currently have MTH road #9000, and have been politicking Andy E. to re-issue the 4-12-2 models with more road numbers. Maybe next year?

Kevin at our club has a Lionel # 9004 Legacy engine and it runs and sounds great. The chuff sound is really impressive. It runs great at the BDSME in Bethlehem Pa. A lot of detail too. JohnB

I agree Mth has the best 3 cylinder sounds, but that is easy for me because I am not a fan of Lionel legacy steam sounds. I am also not a vision line fan, even though I have two locomotives with vision line features , because those features don`t look real to me. A smoking whistle is not a steaming whistle and so on.  I think over all Lionel sounds are superior but after just getting my C&NW F-7`s with PS3, MTH is getting sounds that are right up there in quality with the Legacy .

Where did you get that info and do you think it's reliable? If it is that would make a difference to whether I get one of these (Legacy) even if the MTH sound is better.

 

Sorry to puzzle but do you mean that they have been added to the model in the 2013 Signature Catalog?

I have both the Legacy and an MTH.  Appearance is about equal overall - maybe a slight advantage to Lionel, . . . maybe not.  The Legacy has much better sound though and runs noticeably smoother at low speeds (I;m using a ZW-L, might be a different story with an MTH power supply).  The MTH seems to tolerate tighter curves better - neither of these locos is very "rough track" friendly - they are both long sets of drivers and even though many of them are blind drivers, both like straight and level track better than even 72" curves, but the Lionel seems to be a bit more sensitive to uneven track.  On balance if I had to have only one, it would be the Legacy, but maybe that's just me.

Well, I personally own the MTH version, and have seen the more recent Lionel version at the local hobby shop, and the Lionel model does NOT have the "working Gresly valve gear". The more recent Lionel model does have the cranked axle for the third/center cylinder, as do all three of the manufacturers models. The one thing about the cranked axle & center main rod operating feature is, it is darned near impossible to see! However the operating center cylinder valve gear is VERY noticeable during operation, and I have had a number of visitors comment about that feature, along with the great sounding exhaust. 

Yes, I see your point. I thought that the Lionel 2013 Signature Catalog description was slightly ambiguous: "True to the prototype, the Lionel 4-12-2 includes detailed Gresley valve gear in front of the third cylinder and an operational, reciprocating third drive rod in the locomotive frame." I think on reflection that this does not mean they have added the same working valve gear as the MTH model has.It would have been a surprising bonus if they had.

 

In any case, this model has disappeared from the Lionel shipping schedule and I can't trace anyone who lists it as in stock (or still available as a pre-order). I know where there is one from the earlier (2012) issue.

The only one I have seen up close is the Third Rail, and it was a work of art in 2-rail.  I personally am delighted that the mechanism, sound, and smoke are the drivers when it comes time to select a model, since these are things that rapidly become obsolete, rendering the truly good models that contain all these goodies relatively inexpensive on the used market.

 

All of my 3- cylinder models have working valve gear and center main rod, although I make the main work with an eccentric, rather than a cranked axle.  Like Hot says, you cannot see it when the thing rolls by.

 

My version of this beauty runs, but is not yet photo-worthy.  O-72 would make it fall on the floor.

>>>In any case, this model has disappeared from the Lionel shipping schedule and I can't trace anyone who lists it as in stock (or still available as a pre-order). I know where there is one from the earlier (2012) issue.<<

 

Lionel has the black #9000 in stock. The #9004 is currently backordered. Meaning before long, more of those will be available. Lionel also has the undecorated version in stock.

I have the black #9000. Its a beautiful engine with great sounds but tracks poorly on curves and does even worse over Lionel switches. Simply put, its nasty. It derails almost every time. Lionel should put a disclaimer on the ad warning folks with Lionel switches to stay away..   

I've seen and heard the newest MTH version running enough times to know it tracks far better then the Lionel version.

Not sure about which has the more correct sound. But overall to my ears,  the Lionel version simply blows the MTH version off the tracks.

For the moment my engine just sits and sits and sits on a shelf or tracklocked in 5' of straight track waiting for the day when I'll get around to upgrading switches.  

Joe

 

 

The real #9000 is parked about 12 miles from me. and believe me the wheels do not look like the ones in the Lionel photos with the thick metal tires or whitewalls. They look like the MTH. This would be reason enough for me not to go Lionel.

        

 

...In any case, this model has disappeared from the Lionel shipping schedule and I can't trace anyone who lists it as in stock (or still available as a pre-order). I know where there is one from the earlier (2012) issue.

       


Charlie Ro... Nicholas Smith... Gzryboski... SideTrack Hobbies... They all have UP #9000 (black, old livery) in stock!

Personally I always think whitewalls add a touch of the old-fashioned class that is sadly missing these days and I am not deterred by the fact that this engine in its final resting place doesn't have them.

 

Thank you David for this:

Charlie Ro... Nicholas Smith... Gzryboski... SideTrack Hobbies... They all have UP #9000 (black, old livery) in stock!

I obviously did not look far and wide enough.

That would have been awesome since I do NOT believe the bells swung!

Overall, had I known how badly this engine runs over Lionel tinplate O-72 switches I would have passed.

 

Lionel 0-72 switches have all kinds of problems anyway. There have been many, many threads on this subject on the forum. The best solution is just to replace them with Ross tinplate switches, which work a lot better. If you have a lot of switches, you can selectively replace the ones in places where the largest engines are most likely to go. Few people run a 4-12-2 to every corner and siding of the layout. 

Well, I'm certainly not a UP fan, at all, but I have one of the "old" TMCC 4-12-2's (I also have a Veranda turbine, but, really, I'm not a UP fan...really...).

 

It tracks well on GG 072's; it runs well; sound is good and "3-cylindery"; the smoke

unit has never worked since I've had it, but I got it used; I was disappointed that

the Gresley gear did not actually work - I thought that it did, but I must have been

thinking of MTH or 3rd Rail.

 

But, no matter, I like the loco, the price was "cheap", and smoke is not a great factor

with me (and could be fixed) - if a loco smokes too much (messy), I turn it off anyway.

 

Unless you're a victim of showroom glitz, an Early Model like mine would get you in the 3-cylinder, 12-driver business at a friendly price, I'm guessing. 

Probably so, but who cares? 

That feature is a sleeper. its so cool if Lionel would sell the parts needed to install that feature as an aftermarket, I'd be the first in line for the #9000.

Joe 

That is correct, the 9000 class locomotives were converted from "swinging bells" to fixed bells with internal ringers sometime about 1928 or 1929, and by 1939 the UP hade replaced the solid copper tubing to flexible rubber hose, in order to provide compressed air to the internal bell ringer/clapper.

Well....as usual there is a "hint" of brand loyalty going on here but that should not be surprising.  Its the old Chevy / Ford thing.

 

Anyway, I chose to own the MTH model because I enjoy the added details more than I do cast in details...and I felt that for the price, I was getting more of what I was looking for in this particular model.  I think that is the key....buy the model that offers what you want.  In my case, even though I like the steam whistle feature, I don't like the way it is executed....I can see that hole in the boiler and I don't know why the steam could not have come through the whistle especially with today's technology.  It may have been a cost issue since it would have required a newly designed and hollow whistle piece which could be darned near impossible to do...but still the hole bothers me.  AND...I don't want the swinging bell if the bell didn't swing on the prototype.  Regardless of the sound, just because it has a louder and lower chuff doesn't mean it is more accurate UNLESS that kind of sound is what you want...again the operative word. 

 

I like both Lionel and MTH products but in this particular case, for me, the MTH model is superior in looks and accuracy and to be honest, it sounds fantastic with no artificial boominess....OK, remember....this is just my opinion as the case can be made for either by anyone for their own reasons.....

 

Alan

LIONEL all the way for me. Because I grew up with it. Nothing at all against any of the other brands. I just like LIONEL because it it LIONEL.....cannot beat the brand nor the customer service.

 

As everyone said above, just mu humble opinion.

 

Have a great weekend.

You must live near the Pomona, CA Fairgrounds as I do.  A good portion of the engines I own have their prototypical counterparts at the Pomona Fairgrounds.  When I go I alwasys check out the engines and then go and compare to my MTH counterparts.

Roger.....In my post above I didn't touch on service and parts but your mention of service is a very good point.  It seems that Lionel parts and service departments are second to none and so that should be part of the decision.  When I purchased my MTH UP 4-12-2, it is the first run, I didn't realize the difficultly of getting proper service.  Thus as I have stated before, I am buying only Lionel locomotives as of this point. 

 

So...Steve....you may want to factor in any possibility of something going wrong and how quickly it will be fixed or the availability of parts.

 

Alan

 

 

 

 

 

I am  lucky in that I have a mega repair store  for both Lionel and MTH near me that does all the repairs for me in days under warranty if applicable. Also my dealings with both manufacturers directly have been good.

Ptalar, I also go the the fairgrounds and compare my models with what they have there. And my 4-12-2 is an amazing model of the  UP 9000.

 

 

 

 

 

 

If you buy only one brand, then there's little basis to be able to compare other brands or customer service of others.  In other words, without practical exposure and actually owning and running other brands, how would you know it "can't be beat" without actual first-hand comparisons to base that conclusion?

 

In regards to the swinging bell, I see very little incentive to include that on feature on models of prototypes that didn't actually swing.  Not unless they had the swinging feature as a user-enable or disable function for the owner.

What megastore would that be?  There are only a few decent trainshops I know of in So Cal: Train Shack is one.  Whistle Stop/Allied is another.   Arnies is good.   I can't think of any others.  You wouldn't mean Pegasus Hobbies.  I did not realize they handled warranty repairs for MTH and Lionel.  They were much bigger into trains about 14 years ago then they are now.

My Dad has the MTH version and I looked at buying the Lionel Legacy version. After seeing the difference in detail (lack there of on the Lionel version) I decided not to buy it. I could careless whether the whistle blows smoke or not, I could careless about the "Ford" - "Chevy" debate, but for $1000+ I'm not digging the molded on boiler detail. Let's leave that to the postwar trains. The MTH is superior in detail.

 

If Lionel wants to keep re-issuing the same engines, how about improving/adding some detail besides a smoking whistle.      

both are nice models. My decision would be MTH because I prefer operating DCS vs Legacy/TMCC

You know, after thinking about this a day, I have a different recommendation: if you intend to run it much, buy some other loco.  To be quite honest, a 6-driver-a-side locomotive looks good on the shelf and is interesting to think and talk about, but it isn't a great loco to run on even 84" curves. I'm not sure why I have both - one would be enough for display.

 

The Lionel is terribly fussy about track and switches, although I have coaxed it to run on my big loop.  The MTH is a bit less fussy but still, its the second worst loco I have in that regard.  And both look silly - just of place on 72" curves, with a least one of their blind drivers off the rails almost if not entirely.  The Legacy Mallet is the same size and quality and sound, and has the same "gravitas" on the layout, and is just a sweet, well-behaved runner by comparison to either of these.

Most of what you stated is opinion, right?

 

My opinion is different.

>>>In regards to the swinging bell, I see very little incentive to include that on feature on models of prototypes that didn't actually swing.<<

 

As was stated above, the prototype originally did have a swinging bell until it was converted.

Joe 

This is all subjective and everyone has an opinion about which of the engines is best for them. 

 

I have never seen the MTH or the 3 Rail versions in person.  I own the Legacy version.  I watched the MTH product video, albeit in low res, but to my eye the level of detail is similar.  Both MTH and Lionel have appear to have cast-in piping on the boiler that does detract from the overall appearance.  The MTH has operational Gresely Valve Gear (I think that is the correct name, I don't know, but that is what I read).  That is a pretty cool feature and it is regrettably absent from the Lionel version.  This is a real shame.  Lionel should have improved the Legacy version to have this feature.  It is one of the elements that makes this type of engine unique and adds to its character.  Not including it is a huge loss.

 

The Lionel version has a clear 3 chuff exhaust note.  The variability of the labor of the chuff and the smoke output can be controlled with the Legacy EFX feature.  This is a great feature.  I do not know if the MTH version is equally responsive to the operator.  The Legacy version appears to start and stop more smoothly than the MTH version in the video.  Don't know if that is a function of the operator of the speed steps.  I have not seen in person any engine start and stop as smoothly as Legacy engines.

 

The MTH and Lionel whistles sound different, I have no clue as to which is the "right" whistle. 

 

I am satisfied with my Legacy version.  I have the 9000 with the Overland herald and the white walls.  I think it looks beautiful.  The Legacy version listed for 100 bucks less than the original TMCC version with additional smoking whistle feature.  I perceived this to be a fair price.  So I bought it.  As to the comment about the leaking boiler, sarcasm aside, it is not ideal that Lionel has gone this route.  I have the ATSF 3000 and the Pennsy CC2S, both of which emit smoke via the whistle not a hole in the boiler.  I have had no problems with either of those whistles clogging.  I prefer they go back to that method.  Obviously there are some on the forum that despise this feature and can't pass on an opportunity to make insulting comments about them.  To those haters....keep on hating.  I will continue to purchase engines with smoking bells and swinging whistles, regardless of whatever negative and pointless comments you continue to post.

 

In the end, which is better?  Who knows?  Oh wait, I forgot there are several self-anointed experts on this forum that will sarcastically and condescendingly inform you which is the correct model/toy engine to purchase with your money.  If your lucky they may even educate you in the proper method to enjoy your purchase as well.

May I suggest that you go way back to the top and re-read the ORIGINAL POSTER'S questions?

 

He pretty much asked for opinions on the different manufacturers models of the UP 4-12-2, ESPECIALLY the whistle! He was provided LOTS of technical FACTS, plus some opinions. If you fault the process, that is your problem. If you also don't like the facts, i.e both the MTH and Sunset/3rd Rail models have much more separately applied pieces than the Lionel's "cast-on" features, well,,,,,,,I sure don't know what to tell you!

 I watched the MTH product video, albeit in low res, but to my eye the level of detail is similar. Both MTH and Lionel have appear to have cast-in piping on the boiler...

A low-res video tells you nothing about fine detail. The MTH engine does have separately applied piping; according to owners who have posted in this thread, much of the Lionel piping is cast-in. Some MTH detail such as the sand pipes is very close to the boiler and may appear to be cast-in on a video, but it's actually separate. I own the MTH version and used to have the 3rd Rail, and I can say for certain that both these models have a lot of finely crafted, separately applied detail. The 3rd Rail has a bit more and finer detail, but either of them has much more detail than the Lionel.

 

The MTH and Lionel whistles sound different, I have no clue as to which is the "right" whistle. 

As several people have posted on this thread, the correct whistle for the 4-12-2 is the second MTH version, which did not come with the engine. You have to download it from the MTH website. MTH recorded this sound file in response to protests from knowledgeable customers that the original whistle, while it was a UP whistle, was not correct for that locomotive. I have the correct version on my engine.

 

To quote the immortal Robert A. Heinlein:

"What are the facts? Again and again and again – What are the facts? Shun wishful thinking, ignore divine revelation, forget about what “the stars foretell,” avoid opinion, care not what the neighbors think, never mind the unguessable “verdict of history” – what are the facts, and to how many decimal places? You pilot always into an unknown future; facts are your single clue. Get the facts!"

 

If you prefer the Lionel unit because it has Legacy and whistle steam, that's your preference. It's your money, and you set your own priorities. Others prefer more detail, a better whistle, and DCS, and others would rather accept some operational problems in exchange for the ultimate in detail. I don't see any "self-anointed experts" here telling people what to buy, just Forum members sharing their knowledge and experience, which is what this forum is about. 

Kevin....while I have only met you in person once and have some e-mail time with you as well, I am disappointed in your post above for the same reasons Hot Water has mentioned in his post above this one.  You are an educator and have been trained that expressions as well as opinions should be allowed....just as yours should.  None of us that I can tell have told the original poster how to spend his money nor has anyone been self-anointed.  In affect you have told some of the respondents that our opinions and observations are of no consequence when in fact the information here has been very good and comes from those of us that own both models...some may own all three.  I am doing a comparison right now and I see only one cast in pipe detail on the MTH model....everything else is separately applied...but I am not an expert and so I may have missed something.

 

Regardless, as many have said above, all of the models offer something unique to that model whether it is the sound or the detail level or how accurate the model is....there is enough information now for anyone that is contemplating owning one of these to pick the one that best meets their needs.

 

Alan

Well, that's your opinion.