Lionel Legacy System sent to Lionel for repairs and I need a back up.

There was a thread a couple weeks ago regarding availability of Legacy systems so check that out.  You can post a "Want To Buy" ad on the forum or otherwise try to find one on the used market.  Also, you can overpay for a new one.  Side Track hobbies has them new but as of this week, they marked them up to $50 over MSRP.

AFAIK, there is no way to use the sensor tracks without the Legacy Command base, or at least the BASE1L.  However, most of the features of the sensor track are really only available using the full Legacy system.

I don't see why you can't run without LCS, the sensor tracks aren't going to affect actual locomotive operation.

I have a 'down' Legacy set and was considering sending back to Lionel but will be dead in the water without it. Am not familiar with all the options - can I buy the wifi unit and run from my phone w/out the Legacy set?

You cant use LCS WIFI without the legacy base. The wifi box is just a mobile device interface that gives the inputs to the 990 base to send to the trains.  

To the OP, if you have a TMCC base then you are still in business for running trains. Maybe not full function, but TMCC remotes will run legacy in TMCC mode.  Seems silly to spend a couple hundred bucks to solve a 2 month problem and then end up with surplus.

For you folks looking for a Legacy 990, I just called Side Track, mentioned above, and they are out.  I called Charles Ro and they are out and don't expect a shipment until March of next year!  I'm looking for a new 990 set.  Is there anything in stock?  In the meantime I'm getting out my Tmcc Cab-1 system and am dusting it off.  Let's see what it can do.

Joe,

    You can use your TMCC system as a back up until your Legacy system is repaired. Lionel does take special care repairing Legacy systems, they did my train clubs system and were very quick about it. Things may of changed as that was several years ago. The TMCC system will run all you Legacy engines, you should not have to pre-program the engines just enter the engine # on the Cab1 and run. You can’t do a lot of the Legacy options, no quilling horn or whistle but they will run until Lionel returns your Legacy system. I am currently running a Legacy 2 engine train on our clubs traveling layout that only has TMCC. The hardest thing was programming the Train using TMCC but I googled the TMCC operating manual as I forgot some of the TMCC steps in setting up a lash up.

JohnB

Joe,

   As GRJ said you will not be able to use your wireless Legacy or track sensors using TMCC. You are basically going back 15 to 20 years of technology, but you can run your trains using a remote.

JohnB

I have a couple 990 sets. One is at Lionel right now. I feel that it takes two of these sets to reliably run Legacy 😀

I have a spare Legacy #990 and I have the CAB1L/BASE1L set as well.  I also have a #993 set, gives me an extra Legacy Remote.  I typically keep two CAB2's, two CAB1L's, and two DCS Remotes on the layout.  I also have the LionChief Universal Remote for anything that requires something else to run.

Folks:  Here's what's going on and these are preliminary results as I got some HVAC service people scheduled to arrive.  So I could not wait and snuck a session in.  I installed the tmcc system and just attached the common to the base and power to the base.  I could not get my 2 ZW-Ls to respond to the red dial to raise voltage but I was able to get my ZW-C to respond.  I did not have to program a new arrival which had been ID'd in Legacy and it responded beautifully.  NO loss of signal whatsoever! I ran it very slowly and there was solid signal with no flickering. So far so good.  My problems seemed to have diminished.  But I'm a believer in Murphy's law.  It looks like with some fiddling I may be able to run trains.  We'll see what happens.

By the way, does anyone know if ZW-L's should respond to TMCC.  I had programmed my ZW-Ls at TR91-TR-94(No response) and TR95-TR98 (No response).

My ZW-C is TR1-TR-4(Responds to signal).

As usual.  You guys are great and all knowledgeable.

@Smokin' Joe posted:

By the way, does anyone know if ZW-L's should respond to TMCC.  I had programmed my ZW-Ls at TR91-TR-94(No response) and TR95-TR98 (No response).

My ZW-C is TR1-TR-4(Responds to signal).

As usual.  You guys are great and all knowledgeable.

The ZW-Ls will need to be between TR 1-6.  TMCC can not address above, for a 4 channel transformer, TR6 A (7 B, 8 C, 9 D). You could give them an ENG address which will go up to 95 A (96 B ,97 C, 98 D).

Folks:  I finally got a chance to put the old tmcc system through its paces.  I had four trains going  slowly, including an elevated one,  with no signal loss.  Marty was right. I reprogrammed the ZW-L's with eng ID's and everything worked.  I am glad that I also sent the Legacy base to Lionel.  I have a feeling that it needs tuning.  I ran everything for about two hours without a hitch.  There were no flickering lights. 

I think that I will order a second 990 to have as a backup when they are back in stock. Its great for troubleshooting and it would also give me 3 Cab-2's so each of my grand kids can run trains.

Again, thank you for your input and it looks like I'm back in the train business.\

Regards,

Depending on the age of the grandkids, maybe you should consider the CAB1L for them.  No fragile display or fancy controls to break, and they'll run TMCC & Legacy just fine.

To the OP......I sent my legacy 990 system back to Lionel for repair a few weeks ago on 11/13 via FedEx standard.  I received the repaired unit back on 11/30.  Lionel has certainly stepped up their game lately on repair work.

Folks:  I continue to run trains with no problems using the old TMCC system.  My next question is this.  Years ago I seem to remember a clear plastic overlay which indicated the functions of the number buttons on the Cab-1.  Is this still available and who sells it.  Thanks again.

Hi,

Sent mine in on 11/19/21 and received it back on 11/26/21, repaired and updated to 1.7

Great service

Sonny

@Smokin' Joe posted:

Folks:  I continue to run trains with no problems using the old TMCC system.  My next question is this.  Years ago I seem to remember a clear plastic overlay which indicated the functions of the number buttons on the Cab-1.  Is this still available and who sells it.  Thanks again.

Lionel has a bunch of them listed:  CAB1/CAB1L Function Overlay

Funny how TMCC keeps working and 990s keep failing.....when available. 

I've fixed a lot of old TMCC CAB1/BASE1 sets, and I've also tossed a few that were hopeless.

Other than the initial trip for the charging circuit, my two command bases are working 100% as are the three CAB2's.  One of my command bases hearkens back to the original Legacy release, not bad for a product that keeps failing...

Can Bluetooth be used to run 🏃‍♂️ the newer legacy locomotives without the base

Yep, to use BT all you need it the application on your smart device.

So that can be the backup plan. I’ve tried the Bluetooth app but like legacy better and never run my layout without it

@Berkshire President posted:

Funny how TMCC keeps working and 990s keep failing.....when available. 

I have 2 dead Cab1s. One doesn’t transmit the other the red knob is dead. My 2 Cab2s which are original stock are still going. I guess it all depends.

The Cab2s are definitely more fragile and have a lot more going on. While the original TMCC are pretty bullet proof but not infallible. Lionel though has done the best thing by providing unlimited warranty for Legacy systems.

Seems the Cab/Base1Ls are pretty bullet proof as well.

My two CAB1L units have been dropped a bunch of times, they're still operating 100%.  I'm much more careful who I had the CAB2 remotes to since I know they won't survive many drops.

@MartyE posted:

Seems the Cab/Base1Ls are pretty bullet proof as well.

Amen to that.  Agree 100%.

It looks like Lionel stepped up to the plate.  I just got a message from Fedex that a package is due for delivery today from Concord, NC.  That is amazing turn around.  I shipped it to Lionel on 11/24!  I hope that my problems with the Legacy system go away.  I must say that the TMCC Cab-1 system was a great substitute for the time being.  It performed as intended flawlessly. 

WOW, that's better than I would have expected, nice job by Lionel!

Folks:  Lionel replaced a lot of stuff in both cab-2 and base.  It seemed to have cleaned up a lot of issues like signal strength.  However, they said that they updated the base software to version 1.70. My data was lost but I used the Lionel utility to reload the data.

This is preliminary as I have to leave for a while.  I do not get feedback info from a new legacy engine when it passes over the sensor track. Bluetooth is on. I have to enter the data manually.   The sensor track still performs one of the nine functions (eg blow the whistle) but does not load the engine info into the base.  Here is something strange.  On start up the cab shows Cab Version 1.70 and Base version 1.60!!!! What do you think is going on?  I have tried reprogramming the sensor track with no help.  By the way what is the most current version of cab and base software?

The latest versions of the Legacy command system firmware are 1.70 for the CAB2 and 1.60 for the command base.

@Smokin' Joe posted:

Folks:  I have a Legacy System that dates back to 2007 when Lionel first introduced it.  I've been building a medium sized layout for some time.  I have added the WiFi module; a couple of Block modules; 4 ASC's and a couple of Switch monitors.  In addition I've installed three sensor tracks so far.  Lately I've noticed erratic and intermittent problems, such as trains stopping and losing signal, hard to press buttons on the Cab-2, loss of sound.  One time I had runaway trains.   Fortunately, I have the expansion system and noticed that when using the newer controller most of the problems went away.  I called Lionel and they honored the lifetime warranty and provided free shipping as well.  I decided to send the base back as well, because not all the problems disappeared. I understand that the back log at Lionel service could be up to 8 weeks and I'm out of business I think.  I considered purchasing a second Legacy system, but they are out of stock and not scheduled to arrive for months.  I also have a TMCC system with a Cab-1.  My question is:  Is there a way to hook up the TMCC and the Legacy modules including sensor tracks? If not, what can I do in the meantime to run trains? What are my options? Thanks for any help.

The Cab1L is an excellent back up. I have one that I use for temporary layouts.

Folks:  I have restored the Legacy system on my layout and used the utility program to restore my data.  Well, I've run 4 trains for over an hour and even run at restricted speed with no signal loss or any other weird stuff.  The only problem I have is with the sensor tracks.  I regard it as a nuisance because the sensor tracks are basically working ok except that they won't load data into the base when a new engine passes through.  I tried deleting engine info using the utility and even with the cab-2.  I even tried assigning a new ID and that did not work either.  It's the principle folks.  I loaded the info manually.  I could be wrong but I believe that it's a software glitch with a flag somewhere telling the base not to accept the info because its already been loaded before.  I have the new Veranda on pre-order.  It would be interesting to see if the sensor track loads the Veranda info.  Again, thanks for all your help and comments. 

If you programmed your new engine with a number that is already used in the base, the sensor will not up date the new engine. This can come up often when others run their engines on your layout. And, there is also a software switch to turn the feature on or off.

To Disable Legacy Base updates on ALL SensorTracks
Press CAB buttons ACC, 99, AUX1, 3
To Enable Legacy Base updates on ALL SensorTracks
Press CAB buttons ACC, 99, AUX1, 4

@cjack posted:

If you programmed your new engine with a number that is already used in the base, the sensor will not up date the new engine. This can come up often when others run their engines on your layout. And, there is also a software switch to turn the feature on or off.

That's not really true Chuck, it'll fill in the data if anything's different in the base from the engine.  I just took my H10 and changed the road number, after crossing the Sensor Track, the 1288 was filled back in just like I expected.

What I thought I noticed was that when I programmed and engine to have say #89, it would not put in the new engine data when crossing the sensor. Nothing happened. So I looked to why and found a previous #89. I deleted the data I had previously had in the base for #89 and the new engine, crossing the sensor, now put in the new engine data. I thought it kind of makes sense since you would not want to write over an engine # that you had previously stored in the base.

I may have missed something when I noticed what I thought was why the new engine would not put in it’s data. I’ll remember to revisit this again and test some.

Chuck, you have to enter the basics of the engine, including the TMCC #, just to get it to move and cross the sensor.   However, it reloads the data every time if anything is different,apparently, at least in my tests it does.

Folks:  Again you guys are all knowing and the gurus of Legacy/tmcc/DCS/and everything else.  I got my sensor tracks to work per cjack's suggestion.  You are both right according to my set up.  Once I entered ACC 99 Aux1 4, the sensor tracks began to load any info that was different then the preprogrammed engine info.  Once everything is entered appropriately, then no further input is indicated on the Cab-2. I got all my newer engines entered.  These were not on the backup LCS data utility file when I used the back up function. 

Folks:  My problems with the legacy/tmcc signals continue and I think I have found a fix at least on my layout.  I hope that this helps those of you that are having problems with signal interference.  First of all,  according to a post on these pages someone recommended Mike Reagan's excellent video on signal strength basics.  I could not find a working video on Lionel's site but I found it on YouTube. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQ-hiIvPxVs.  His video is simple and to the point.  I now understand what is going on.  My layout is multilevel and also has parallel tracks.  The problem is signal interference and too much signal.  As Mike explained, instead of 60 CPS radio signal, you can get multiples (120,180 etc.).  The solution is make ground planes between the interfering tracks.  This could be done with insulated wires run between and connected to a simple ground such as the screw holding an outlet plate.

I opted to use Shaper Sheets which is a product that you can use to make mountainous terrain. I needed to put scenery here anyway.   It is gauze like sheets lined with a relatively thick aluminum foil.  You crumple it and it holds its shape. Then you can paint and put scenery on top.  I also used some special conductive copper tape that is sticky but even the stickum is conductive.  I put together 3 X 18 " sheets using the instructions of shaper sheets but had to use the tape to connect to make sure that there was continuity.  I placed this material in between the parallel tracks ( A big pain in the...) and I connected an insulated ground wire that was stripped down maybe three inches and attached that end to the Shaper Sheets.  I used the conductive tape to attach the wire.  I ran the wire to a close by outlet and attached the stripped other end to the outlet screw.  It is a lot easier to do this before you lay the track and if you plan on making multilevel layouts with close/parallel tracks, you may want to plan ahead.

Well folks, I used my N&W J 611 TMCC engine, which is very sensitive to signal interference problems.  This engine was stalling with lights flickering every time in the troubled area.  Now there is no stalling and no problems even down to step 2 (TMCC).  My journey has been a long one and I hope that I've reached a successful end.  Remember I had my ZW-L repaired and the Legacy Base/Cab-2 as well.  Again, thanks to Lionel for honoring the lifetime warranty. Each time I noticed improvements, but the problem never completely went away.  I hope that this is it for me and that this post will help others with signal interference problems.

Well, the "reasoning" as to why this happens is a bit different than stated.

TMCC has two "sides" to the signal, the track connection and the earth ground. The "earth ground" signal is received by the TMCC reciver antenna.

When you have multiple layers, the track signal overwhelms the weaker earth ground signal.  By placing the "ground plane" between the levels, you have enhanced the "earth ground" signal.