Lionel NEW Union Pacific 21 inch Excursion passenger cars -

Here is the late night shuttle taking the cars off of the main for service.  Tomorrow's run is going to be a long one 

Awesome John. Thanks for the pics. I will be picking mine up this week. Fingers crossed no issues with them. Talk to you soon. 

J Daddy posted:

 

So where are the diaphragms for these cars?

 

Right where they should be. 

Gone are the "accordion" diaphragms.  The modern passenger car diaphragm consists of three flexible tubes:

Rusty

Dave S. posted:

Awesome John. Thanks for the pics. I will be picking mine up this week. Fingers crossed no issues with them. Talk to you soon. 

Dave, 

I would make haste... 2 pcks are running out!

So I have to make these cars kiss off even closer?  

So, that comes to the topic of these couplers. I am not sure the kinematics on the motion of these couplers. They do not pivot right to left on their point of axis, which I am going to investigate. Also, when the couplers motion forward in their V type sliders they do not center off, which makes for an awkward look upon back and forward motions of the car.

BTW  - somebody left the toilet seat up and it sticking out in plain view in the window... 

And why is there a bulkhead dead center of the window on the dinner car? Hand me the Dremel Norton, I am going in

Question - how long is the flag baggage car?  Is it a full 21"?  Thanks.

The UP Excursion Flag Baggage Car is a full 21" long.  The floor pieces inside do not go all the way to the ends of cars and may be from the shorter Generator Car or the American Freedom Display Cars.

I included pictures of my interior detailing work showing shorter floors. 

Thank you Brian Sheffield and Legacy Station for helping me get a good UP Excursion "Katy Flyer" Body Shell.  The car is now completed after pulling needed parts from the first car.  I am very pleased with the excellent service.  Many thanks.

The Preiser 65602 Unpainted Seated People, that I painted, are enjoying the ride inside the "Katy Flyer".

Guys, so we know there are form, fit, function and possible finish issues. How ar the cars with respect to the tooling of the core car body? E.G.  Do the domes look right? Thanks for all of the other answers.

John Rowlen posted:

Thank you Brian Sheffield and Legacy Station for helping me get a good UP Excursion "Katy Flyer" Body Shell.  The car is now completed after pulling needed parts from the first car.  I am very pleased with the excellent service.  Many thanks.

....

So John, if you don't mind me asking... Did you actually "buy" 3 sets of the UP cars to get the complete set that you're now keeping with all your great interior detailing?  Or did you return the net equivalent of 2 sets back to the dealer(s) that supplied them to you?

David

Trinkle-Trains posted:

... Are all the cars supposed to be 21"?  ...

From what I understand, all the cars were designed for 21" EXCEPT for those cars based on a 72' baggage car in real life.  The UP Flag car is a bit of an exception at 21", because its real-life prototype was an 86' baggage car.  Aside from that, most baggage cars come in at 18".  And much of the AFT Display/Exhibit cars are based on former NYC 72' baggage cars, so they're also 18".

All of that notwithstanding, the bulk of these cars are 21" in length.  So much so... that even the 18" cars are packaged in boxes labeled as 21" passenger cars! 

David

David,

I have not yet purchased my third (actually second to own) 4-car pack of 6-83042 UP Excursion cars. They just arrived at the dealer and will be purchased Monday.  I have worked to get one good Katy Flyer by using two cars, swapping parts.

Brian at Legacy Station sacrificed a 4-car Pack to pull the second "Katy Flyer" Coach to send to me.  The second car was missing two grab irons and had a small window with an unusual silver shine to it. Brian told me to pull the grab irons off the car that was marked and make the second car as good as possible.  I replaced the small window too.  I will return the damaged car to Legacy Station, and Brian will return the 4-pack to Lionel for a dealer credit.

I am very happy with the service from Legacy Station.  It is a shame that no extra body shells were produced on this second run of passenger cars, and a set had to be sacrificed, but this other set also had issues with its Katy Flyer---missing two grab irons.  This made two sets with issues.  Now one is good and I am grateful.

Note: Dealers may be slow to fill orders as they inspect, sort, and re-package good cars into 4-packs, removing those cars with issues.  It is a little more work for the dealer, but fewer disappointed posts on OGR Forum.  I commend those dealers who may be doing this.  Thank you.

Trinkle-Trains posted:

Guys, so we know there are form, fit, function and possible finish issues. How ar the cars with respect to the tooling of the core car body? E.G.  Do the domes look right? Thanks for all of the other answers.

That's a good question and just my own humble opinion follows but I have spent some time inspecting my set of the 7 cars and have just compared them to earlier Lionel and MTH UP passenger stock I have. I don't have any glaring QC issues with any of my Excursion cars, which certainly means that I am less put out by defects than other posters.

Overall I would say that there are some features of the body shells that are more scale accurate than earlier MTH /Lionel UP offerings, such as (wait for it) the roof rivets but in fact the impression I am left with is that these cars are, for want of a better word, fairly dumbed-down representations of the prototypes. Lionel has skimped on a lot of detail and in particular (ignoring the fairly generic solid color interiors) things like roof vents and the undercarriage equipment. On the other hand you get train-specific announcements from the StationSounds system, which is bound to be a crowd-pleaser, and very largely prototypical window placings. Trouble is, what you can see through the windows is bland and an assembly error - using double-sided tape that is too wide to fix windows in place - means that the cars are not as easy to open up and detail as they were meant to be. 

On the rails the effect of having the whole set together is fairly impressive, partly because the lighting is very good. No one else has mentioned this but unlike the first run of ABS cars the LEDs or more accurately the super capacitors don't take ages to power up and give full illumination. So that is an improvement.

You mention the dome cars and these are pretty nice representations of the real thing as far as my research into the real cars has gone. Yes, the domes are much, much better than those on the first run although they still lack overhead lighting. My photos so far are pretty inferior but this is the observation car with rear lighting; it's been simplified compared to the K-Line version shown earlier in this thread but it's a reasonable approximation of the prototype:

New Lionel 21” UP passenger cars pulled by the Lionel VL Big Boy.  Notice the mechanical car sound, and the diner rolling car sounds.

Could we hear some more of the station announcements from the dining car?

Here are some pictures of the real cars for comparison.

Although this is a very informing thread full if tips, mods, reviews and pictures....It seems to have taken a turn towards the nitpicky side, which is a huge downer for the thread.  Sure, nothing is perfect, but some seem to complain about the hole in the donut.  For the money, they are awesome!  Near perfect specifications would require you to buy a brass model.  If you want perfection, clear some room in the yard an buy an actual coach.  These cars are a really great starting point for customizing eg; adding more underbody detail if wanted, vents, etc...after all thats what propels the hobby.  Not that it matters to anyone, but I unsubscribed due to the non positive direction its taken.  Not calling out anyone in particular, just saying.

I thought Kadees are for 2 rail trains!!! If people convert everything to kadees you might as well invent a kadee electro-coupler! (In O scale since MTH already made an HO one )

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

I thought Kadees are for 2 rail trains!!! If people convert everything to kadees you might as well invent a kadee electro-coupler! (In O scale since MTH already made an HO one )

Why? Our layout is 3RS, and all locomotives and rolling stock have been up-graded to Kadee body mounted couplers. Just my opinion but, I'm much more interested in the trains staying coupled together, plus not have to bash cars together in order to get the claw to close & latch. I really don't care about remote/electric uncoupling.

Hot Water posted:

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

I thought Kadees are for 2 rail trains!!! If people convert everything to kadees you might as well invent a kadee electro-coupler! (In O scale since MTH already made an HO one )

Why? Our layout is 3RS, and all locomotives and rolling stock have been up-graded to Kadee body mounted couplers. Just my opinion but, I'm much more interested in the trains staying coupled together, plus not have to bash cars together in order to get the claw to close & latch. I really don't care about remote/electric uncoupling.

I agree. I think the Kadee's will really bring these cars to life. And I am not really confident the design of these compensating couplers are really doing their job. There do a lot of monkey motions but really do not take up the gap.

J Daddy posted:

I think the Kadee's will really bring these cars to life. And I am not really confident the design of these compensating couplers are really doing their job. There do a lot of monkey motions but really do not take up the gap.

I don't think that these moving couplers were really necessary for cars that don't have full-width diaphragms. I can see them function on my first run Texas Special cars, which do have full side-to-side diaphragms, but on the Excursion cars they don't move much and the separation between cars is pretty much standard for O gauge passenger stock.

I think I'm likely to convert them to Kadees but not in the hope or expectation of closing the gap. 

Hot Water posted:

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

I thought Kadees are for 2 rail trains!!! If people convert everything to kadees you might as well invent a kadee electro-coupler! (In O scale since MTH already made an HO one )

Why? Our layout is 3RS, and all locomotives and rolling stock have been up-graded to Kadee body mounted couplers. Just my opinion but, I'm much more interested in the trains staying coupled together, plus not have to bash cars together in order to get the claw to close & latch. I really don't care about remote/electric uncoupling.

In your opinion, do you think manufactures should factory equip 3 rail trains with kadees for now on? What do Kadee people do when coupling a car to an electro coupler? Do you scrap an electrocoupler and put a kadee on?

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

Hot Water posted:

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

I thought Kadees are for 2 rail trains!!! If people convert everything to kadees you might as well invent a kadee electro-coupler! (In O scale since MTH already made an HO one )

Why? Our layout is 3RS, and all locomotives and rolling stock have been up-graded to Kadee body mounted couplers. Just my opinion but, I'm much more interested in the trains staying coupled together, plus not have to bash cars together in order to get the claw to close & latch. I really don't care about remote/electric uncoupling.

In your opinion, do you think manufactures should factory equip 3 rail trains with kadees for now on? 

Actually, at the price point we pay for the cars, it sure would be nice to have a pair of couplers in with the boxes.

Hot Water posted:

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

I thought Kadees are for 2 rail trains!!! If people convert everything to kadees you might as well invent a kadee electro-coupler! (In O scale since MTH already made an HO one )

Why? Our layout is 3RS, and all locomotives and rolling stock have been up-graded to Kadee body mounted couplers. Just my opinion but, I'm much more interested in the trains staying coupled together, plus not have to bash cars together in order to get the claw to close & latch. I really don't care about remote/electric uncoupling.

Agree totally with you on not having to bash the cars together to get the claws to close.  I did this last night on the UP cars.  What gives LIONEL?  Was this another money saver for you? Cheap couplers?

Overall I have been impressed with the design and layout of the cars. I was a bit hopeful that my set wouldn't have any defects as the sound car and 2 pack were pretty spotless. Sadly the 4-pack presented 3 of 4 cars with damage. Hope to get them exchanged out from my point of purchase. Will say given the numerous truck rides, boat trip and warehouses they are shipped through, pretty impressive that any of them actually make it in good shape. 

Looking at these car exteriors a little bit closer... Does anyone make the generators shown as a separate brass detail that can be applied to the car floors?

Does anyone make o scale kadee electro couplers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

Does anyone make o scale kadee electro couplers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!?

No one commercially that I know of but, I personally know two former forum members who have made them themselves. One used the coil from a Lionel knuckle and piano wire. The other made his own coils. It can be done.

Pete

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

Hot Water posted:

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

I thought Kadees are for 2 rail trains!!! If people convert everything to kadees you might as well invent a kadee electro-coupler! (In O scale since MTH already made an HO one )

Why? Our layout is 3RS, and all locomotives and rolling stock have been up-graded to Kadee body mounted couplers. Just my opinion but, I'm much more interested in the trains staying coupled together, plus not have to bash cars together in order to get the claw to close & latch. I really don't care about remote/electric uncoupling.

In your opinion, do you think manufactures should factory equip 3 rail trains with kadees for now on?

No, not at all! However, it would be nice if manufacturers (Lionel) offered properly designed MOUNTING PADS for the Kadee gear box & coupler arrangement, on high end scale equipment (like MTH does).

What do Kadee people do when coupling a car to an electro coupler?

Personally, I have no problem doing just that, depending on the manufacturer's quality of their electro-coupler. Many times we have had visitors bring a locomotive over to run, and it couples quite nicely to any of our freight cars (all of which have body mounted Kadee couplers).

Do you scrap an electrocoupler and put a kadee on?

I sure as heck do!!!!!

Hot Water posted:

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

Hot Water posted:

@T1Titan_ZachF posted:

I thought Kadees are for 2 rail trains!!! If people convert everything to kadees you might as well invent a kadee electro-coupler! (In O scale since MTH already made an HO one )

Why? Our layout is 3RS, and all locomotives and rolling stock have been up-graded to Kadee body mounted couplers. Just my opinion but, I'm much more interested in the trains staying coupled together, plus not have to bash cars together in order to get the claw to close & latch. I really don't care about remote/electric uncoupling.

In your opinion, do you think manufactures should factory equip 3 rail trains with kadees for now on?

No, not at all! However, it would be nice if manufacturers (Lionel) offered properly designed MOUNTING PADS for the Kadee gear box & coupler arrangement, on high end scale equipment (like MTH does).

What do Kadee people do when coupling a car to an electro coupler?

Personally, I have no problem doing just that, depending on the manufacturer's quality of their electro-coupler. Many times we have had visitors bring a locomotive over to run, and it couples quite nicely to any of our freight cars (all of which have body mounted Kadee couplers).

Do you scrap an electrocoupler and put a kadee on?

I sure as heck do!!!!!

 

Thanks for the clarification Hot Water. 

J Daddy if you can find a source for those generators  or any of the accurate sized underbody details please share.   I believe the cages are available in brass from PSC after that pretty much on your own.  I had to fake my own split unit ac units in the past and was really hoping for them on the flag bag but no love.

I'm waiting for the Lionel UP StationSounds Diner Car to arrive at my local hobby shop.  I bought the 5 car MTH Premier Line UP cars instead.  A lot cheeper, and came with baggage car. Lionel set did not come with baggage car, but very nice looking cars.

aterry11 posted:

J Daddy if you can find a source for those generators  or any of the accurate sized underbody details please share.   I believe the cages are available in brass from PSC after that pretty much on your own.  I had to fake my own split unit ac units in the past and was really hoping for them on the flag bag but no love.

Try OGR Forum Sponsor, SCALE CITY DESIGNS.

Hot Water posted:

aterry11 posted:

J Daddy if you can find a source for those generators  or any of the accurate sized underbody details please share.   I believe the cages are available in brass from PSC after that pretty much on your own.  I had to fake my own split unit ac units in the past and was really hoping for them on the flag bag but no love.

Try OGR Forum Sponsor, SCALE CITY DESIGNS.

Will do... just looked through Precision Scale Products on line catalog... no go...Did Atlas have these on the bottom of their Bud cars?

Upon closer inspection of my dining car it has a small scrape in the yellow paint and some glue on the inside of one of the windows. Still need to check the 4 pack. These really seem to have been rushed out the door. 

Edit: Observation on 4 pack has a window punched out and hanging wires. Nothing I can't fix, but the shoddy QC is wearing me thin.

The dome had also popped off the other car. 

Very happy with the design of the set but after opening each car have found some issues. 

City of San Francisco: Has scratched windows, paint. Bent footsteps on one side of the car.

Katy Flyer: Has missing/broken end pieces. The missing parts are not even in the box. Has a gouge in the opposing end of the car.  

Overland: Has paint scrapes and an indent on the end, possible excess club or plastic.

Flag Car: Exhibits a few minor scrapes but is nearly perfect.

Portland Rose: Has paint rubs on the side. Paint scrapes by rear ladder and a smudge by window. Could be grease but does not seem to want to come off.

Challenger Dome: Windows in doors have scratches. Paint scratches on 7015 end and axle exhibits a constant squeak. 

Generator car: Has a chip in the side. Other than that has no other issues.

For those that have been around the hobby, are these issues common on new sets? I only have a few other cars from childhood sets and cars don't show any of these issues, granted they were nowhere near as detailed nor as high-end as these sets. Kind of wonder if my expectations were too high.

I have seen cars like these.  The most telling thing is that parts are missing.  Where did they go?  Did the dealer think you would not notice?  Did the dealer even take time to inspect them? 

You have had worse luck than I have, but maybe I should look at my cars again.

As dealers run out of car sets, our options get very limited.  Good luck.  Thank you for sharing.  The company men and cheerleaders say these cars don't exist.

Where once the "factory goof" was considered valuable, it now looks like whoever has a perfect set of these is going to be able to command the highest resale price!

John Rowlen posted:

I have seen cars like these.  The most telling thing is that parts are missing.  Where did they go?  Did the dealer think you would not notice?  Did the dealer even take time to inspect them? 

You have had worse luck than I have, but maybe I should look at my cars again.

As dealers run out of car sets, our options get very limited.  Good luck.  Thank you for sharing.  The company men and cheerleaders say these cars don't exist.

 

John,  

Generally, those that have issues usually are fairly vocal on OGR about what they have uncovered.  Generally, its a give and take.  I know you have gone through a lot, my cars have had issues as well and that glue tape used between the car shell and frame is a hidden manufacturing mistake.  I doubt anyone is cheering about these problems. 

Here is my link to remove the shell from the body.  Removing the four screws is just the start of the process due to the glue.

 https://ogrforum.com/...rsion-passenger-cars

At some point, I am going to detail the interior you have done.