Lionel or Sunset Allegheny

I could afford rolling stock if I bought the Sunset. The Lionel would not be pulling anything on my layout, since I would have maxed the bank account.

Not sure the Legacy command and sound is worth that kind of premium over TMCC.  However, you are kind-of unfairly comparing brand new retail and used.  I could make this argument on a lot of items.  It would depend mostly on your budget.  With unlimited funds, you could have both.

Yeah....you're right about the price comparisons.....I'm just looking at what both are selling for on the market now and surprisingly there are some "not so used" Sunsets in that range. If I could afford both there would definitely be nothing left for rolling stock so the one Allegheny would be relegated to pulling the other one......!!

If it's ten years old, it would probably have the TAS electronics, for me that would tilt it in favor of the Lionel, even at the added price.  Both models are great looking, and operationally I'd far prefer the Lionel model.  If I were just looking at it, I'd probably go for the Sunset one.

True....good input....thanks!!

I only follow 3rd Rail/Sunset NYC so I don't really have any idea of what the market is for the Allegheny but have been able to find every NYC item they have built for 1/3rd to 1/2 the original list. 1400 seems high to me. Also having models built from 2000 to current I might have a different view of their products. Detail yes but construction can be all over the map. Some parts will fall off in you hand or you will find them in the box even before you handle them. By 2006 I think most items should be at least acceptable. I am OK with EOB and RS4 as sound is less important to me vs detail. Given 1400 vs 1800 I would go with Lionel but if you can find the 3rd Rail model for <1K I would buy the 3rd Rail.

My $.02

Pete

I would suggest you consider the Lionel Joshua Lionel Cowen Series Allegheny. The detail is fantastic,nearly at the level of Sunset 3rd rail but more "robust". I have earlier Alleghenies from both MTH and Lionel and there is much more detail on the JLC version.It has Railsounds 5.0 and the sounds are in the same league as the JLC Legacy Big Boys and easily in the ballpark as my Vision Big Boy. I picked mine up at auction for 850.00. 

You should be able to find used Sunset Alleghenies in the $800 range or less.  Sometimes, you can find them in the $600 range if your lucky.  IMO, you're paying to much if you spend more than that.

If it's the one off the bay, that seller is always out of line with current market/auction prices.  Something to think about....

I've made comments about 3rd Rail steam locos (I own a few) here before, and I know that they are not politically correct, but when I open a 3rd Rail box, I fear what i will find. Some have come out fine; some (bit over half, I guess) have come out with missing (they're in the box) pieces that I have had to repair and/or re-mount. Pilots broken off (the solder); side rods dangling (missing rivets); tender drawbars that could not have possibly worked without modifying the tender; loose flywheels. These were some of the new ones.

Some came out of the box completely flawless. It's a turkey shoot.

I don't have dozens; just several - and certainly L or M can come out with problems. Most don't, and I do not find that the looks of 3rd Rail is typically much better, if at all. And I do like brass. 

I have a 3rd Rail NYC R-2 electric on order right now; but, I buy 3rd Rail pretty much when no one else makes it. If L or M make what you want, I would go that way. 

Boomer, 

Many thanks. I am fortunate in owning the JLC Allegheny.....it is a beautiful model. 

I wonder whether the 2016 release will be more or less detailed then the JLC version..... with some expressing concern that the Chinese castings are not as fine as the Korean castings, as evidenced on other JLC based reissues, it adds more weight to the question as to whether the reissue might be worth the difference again compared to a Sunset 3rd Rail version without all of the state of the art features.

Every brass locomotive I've owned required "tweaking" after shipment-2R Sunset, OMI, PSC and other models along with later 3rd Rail .  Really don't mean that in a negative way toward D500, I'm a big fan of him.  Enjoy his posts also.

D500, I had to nod my head and l laugh as I read your post about how it is not politically correct here to criticize 3rd Rail locomotives.  Many feel they are superior, but that is not my experience.  No doubt they are better than most when it comes to detail and fidelity to the real thing.  But operationally, in every facet from sound to durability to speed steps and everything in between, Legacy engines perform better.  

Only the poster can determine if the operational advantages of the Legacy engine are worth the price difference.  I play with my toys and I find that Legacy engines provide me more play value so I only buy Legacy engines.  But that is just me.

One brass engine I bought had a major piece broken off.... just about every brass engine I bought had some details bent (mostly railing and smaller OD piping).... and various paint chips.....no matter what, it's still disappointing to see damage.....I guess its just part of it

NEPA Posted:

"with some expressing concern that the Chinese castings are not as fine as the Korean castings, as evidenced on other JLC based reissues,"

Which engines, specifically, are you speaking about?

Charlie

Charlie,

There have been some comparisons made on the Chinese VL Challenger castings versus the Korean JLC Challenger castings. You can perform a search for specifics. 

Although I do not own any of the Lionel versions of the C&O H-8, a friend of mine had there JLC version, with the correct 4-chuffs per revolution, but an incorrect whistle. I currently own 3 models of the C&O H-8, two MTH versions, and the last/latest Sunset/3r Rail version. Naturally the Sunset brass model is the most highly detailed model of ANY version of the H-8, and it even has "reversing" valve gear, i.e. the Baker gear is in forward when moving forward, and reverses when the model backs up. 

The Sunset model does have a "Hooter" whistle sound set, which would have been pretty close to correct for the C&O large steam locomotives. Both the MTH versions (2.0) have correct sounds/whistles, and run smoothly pulling a long train of C&O 2-bay coal hoppers (think I'm up to 60+ now). Surprisingly, the Sunset model runs smoother than either of the MTH models, an yet handles more than 50 of the 2-bay coal hoppers.

Given the price difference, I would opt for the Sunset/3rd Rail model, especially if it is one of the "anniversary", i.e. the high road number H-8 (1650 or higher) models.

The JLC Allegheny was built in China for those wondering.

gunrunnerjohn posted:

If it's ten years old, it would probably have the TAS electronics, for me that would tilt it in favor of the Lionel, even at the added price.  Both models are great looking, and operationally I'd far prefer the Lionel model.  If I were just looking at it, I'd probably go for the Sunset one.

I have the Sunset version. Runs fine, pulls well, and no parts have come off in handling As for the electronics, if they go belly up you can replace with ERR electronics and still be money ahead.
Of course, I don't give a fig for all the extra gimcracky that today's buyers seem to need.

On a side note, does anyone know if this latest version will have whitewalls or if they are just silver on the model? It's hard to tell from the images and I don't care for the whites.

Also, if someone who is just a fan of big steam and iconic locomotives is considering one of these, is either of the road numbers any more historically significant than the others? Obviously the two that still exist stick out, but between those two? I plan to do more research but in the meantime I thought I would ask here.

Randy_B, 

Of the two that exist 1601 holds a special place for me.  This is probably just because it is near to where I live and I know it's history and some odd quirks about the troubles that were had in getting it to fit inside the Henry Ford Museum.  I don't know anything about the other remaining Allegheny.  1601 is nice because it is entirely intact, or at least has not had any parts picked off it since it was brought to the museum.  As an odd fact, in what is touted as the largest museum of it's kind, 1601 is reported to be the single most photographed object. (Edit: for context, other highly photographed attractions include the Lincoln that JFK was killed in, The very first ford Mustang, The Rosa Parks bus, and a winermobile)   Something just draws people to her.  You can walk along and touch, and even go up into the cab if you like.  If I recall, there is plexiglass keeping you from actually touching any of the instruments and controls in the cab, but you can have a good long look.  

JGL

BTW, that's 1601 behind my fat head in my avatar.  

Thanks JGL! That's exactly the type of information I'm looking for so thanks for sharing. When I bought a Big Boy, I went for 4018 (instead of the more popular 4014) since I live about 15 minutes from where it is and have seen it many times there and where it was before.

I'm a fan of Atlas Shrugged, The Fountainhead (one of my all time favorites) and Ayn Rand as well.

NEPA,

      If I already had a JCL Lionel Alleganey or even a Sunset Alleganey I do not think I would order the new Legacy version but if I did not own a Alleganey I would go with the Lionel Legacy version no doubt about it. Legacy control and sounds plus the whistle smoke are worth it. Today I would not consider purchasing a large or even medium sized steam engine without whistle smoke. I did purchase a Legacy B6 but that's a small engine so I can see it not being offered in it. Out of all the Legacy or Vision line features whistle smoke is the best.

JohnB

JohnGaltLine posted:

Randy_B, 

Of the two that exist 1601 holds a special place for me.  This is probably just because it is near to where I live and I know it's history and some odd quirks about the troubles that were had in getting it to fit inside the Henry Ford Museum.  I don't know anything about the other remaining Allegheny.  

JGL

BTW, that's 1601 behind my fat head in my avatar.  

The "other" H-8 is the 1604, at the B&O Museum in Baltimore, MD.

I was very interested in this engine until I saw what appears to be white walls on the drivers. But the  incorrect road numbers will kill it for me. Late alleghenys  had over fire jets on the sides of the firebox, as this one does. The Lionel numbers are incorrect for the model pictured.

                                               JG

JGTRAINS posted:

I was very interested in this engine until I saw what appears to be white walls on the drivers.

Pretty much all the large power on the C&O had white tires and white edged side walkways. 

But the  incorrect road numbers will kill it for me. Late alleghenys  had over fire jets on the sides of the firebox, as this one does. The Lionel numbers are incorrect for the model pictured.

Yes, that appears to be a "detail" issue.

                                               JG

Hot Water,

I didn't mean to demean 1604, though I do admit to forgetting the cab number.  

I thinks folks grow attached to one locomotive or another, based on their location and perhaps impressions made at a young age.  For me 1601 was the first, and only truly massive engine I've seen in person.  I'm sure if I grew up on the other side of the state, Pere Marquette 1225 would hold a bigger place in my heart.  

JGL

Why would you build the predecessor of a JLC eninge that people love a lot in 10 years ago and bring it back with similar features. They could of visionlined this product and LIONEL could kill 2 birds with one stone. Making the Allegheny similar to the big boy would generate lots of products being sold.

I reviewed a 2-rail Sunset Allegheny for a now-defunct magazine.  I was totally impressed with the appearance.  The detail and workmanship were on a par with far more expensive brass.  The compromise was in the main frames and tender trucks - the main frames are just brass channels with slots. This is true of all 3-rail models, at least brass ones.  The typical die cast model has the frame extending into the boiler, a feature beloved by Lionel types, but hardly realistic.

So if you can do without synchronized smoke out of the whistle and cylinder cocks, and no moving coal piles, the next question is how much would it cost to stick the latest Vision electronics into the beautiful Sunset brass?

D500 posted:

I've made comments about 3rd Rail steam locos (I own a few) here before, and I know that they are not politically correct, but when I open a 3rd Rail box, I fear what i will find. Some have come out fine; some (bit over half, I guess) have come out with missing (they're in the box) pieces that I have had to repair and/or re-mount. Pilots broken off (the solder); side rods dangling (missing rivets); tender drawbars that could not have possibly worked without modifying the tender; loose flywheels. These were some of the new ones.

Some came out of the box completely flawless. It's a turkey shoot.

I don't have dozens; just several - and certainly L or M can come out with problems. Most don't, and I do not find that the looks of 3rd Rail is typically much better, if at all. And I do like brass. 

I have a 3rd Rail NYC R-2 electric on order right now; but, I buy 3rd Rail pretty much when no one else makes it. If L or M make what you want, I would go that way. 

NEPA

I do not have any Sunset articulateds.  I do have a Sunset Mikado and two Sunset Northerns.  My experience is similar to D500s.  If I get a Sunset locomotive it is because Lionel or MTH do no make a model of a particular steam locomotive and are not likely to do so.  I have had the opportunity to run full length passenger trains (10 to 12 cars) and 2000 scale ton freights on large layouts with realistic (2%+) mountain grades.  It takes a well engineered drive train and motor control system assembled to spec to handle that kind of running.  Sunset has a time tested drive design but has to use third party electronics and a variety of contract builders on smaller production runs.  That means a higher chance of problems with Sunset, especially if you will run your locomotive extensively or if the previous owner has done so.  Sunset offers good customer service but parts support is limited by the brass construction business model.  With a diecast model I have a great LHS that is a factory authorized service station for Lionel and MTH and even if parts are out of stock from the company I can at least hope there will be mechanical parts from future production runs.  With brass there is usually no tooling to re-run. 

For an Allegheny that I plan to run I'd go L or M.

All,

Thank you for all of your feedback. This is what makes this forum such a powerful tool....the willingness to help. The Sunset Allegheny is definitely enticing  but my intention with this engine is to run it, and for this reason I am leaning toward the Lionel Allegheny with the state of the art sound system and the added feature of the whistle steam effect as well as availability of replacement parts ......I only wish for the stated price it included at least one more effect beyond whistle steam.

 Do I understand correctly that the engine number is not correct for the version modeled? If so has this been conveyed to Lionel?

A really enlightening side point in this thread:  folks seem to accept that the very expensive brass locos are going to arrive with flaws; they deal with them and move on, and the manufacturer is still worthy of praise where praise is due.

In other threads, the slightest flaw in a less expensive die cast engine raises the hackles of the indignant buyers who then excoriate the manufacturer.

The difference in perspective is quite interesting, born, I suppose, of differing approaches to the hobby.  some come from an older modeling background which expects to work on their trains.  The other comes from a modern consumer background.

palallin posted:

....The difference in perspective is quite interesting, born, I suppose, of differing approaches to the hobby.  some come from an older modeling background which expects to work on their trains.  The other comes from a modern consumer background.

I've had the same observation. 

Brass is softer than die cast so any movement in the box during shipping will cause damage, ie, bent or broken parts.  A quick touch with the soldering iron or a little bending and you're back in business.

The BEST packaging of any locomotive I've received came from PSC/Iron Horse Models.  Those guys know how to safely deliver a locomotive!

I have the Sunset 3rd Rail "Late" C&O Allegheny in 3 rail.  This engine is modeled after the final order that LIMA built and represents cab nos. 1644 - 1659.  In the roughly 10 years I've had the engine it had performed well; only needing some minor adjustments now and then.  Sunset also made an earlier version of the Allegheny as well as the Virginian AG.  All 3 models are accurate to a "T" in their specific details.   Whichever one you may have (or get) the sound effects used may vary.    Depending on whether or not you prefer your engines to be correctly detailed as to what they are modeled after may be one reason to choose 3rd Rail.   As a few posters have already mentioned picking up a 3rd Rail, Lionel or MTH engine on the secondary market quite often can save you money but you have to have patience and do your homework.   3rd Rail does not release engines in the same quantity as would Lionel or MTH so they tend to be a bit more scarce.   Good luck to you in your decision making and eventual acquisition.