Lionel power to run MTH trains

MTH made an approved list (attached) which contains many MTH and Lionel transformers. The CW 80 is not on the list.

@Marine 0311 posted:

....I currently have a Lionel CW 180 (with power brick)

yes it will

And finally, does the battery in the tender need to be there to run the train ?

YES! I have to guess which sound board is in there.

Any help on this would be appreciated.

GW-180 180-Watt Transformer (lionel.com)

@Marine 0311 posted:

First posting for this new guy, so here goes.

I have an MTH/Rail King Southern Pacific 4-8-4 (X4449) loco and tender with Pro Sound.Exact model number from the box end flap helps (30-XXXX-1 typically). They made tons of this model but different variations so it does matter in technical discussions.

Can this train be powered by a Lionel transformer and if so which ones ? I currently have a Lionel CW 180 (with power brick) I think you mean either the GW180 (given you said external 180Watt brick) or possibly it could be a CW80 and lionel did make a similar one with an external brick. Again, being exact on model number can be important in a technical discussion because Lionel made a lot of different products and there are technical details that matter when asking for help.

Seems I read someplace that the Lionel train transformers don't play well with MTH trains, but Lionel trains will run fine using MTH transformers. I'm one of the people who often say that from experience. There are 2 main reasons or facts that come into play. The typical Lionel GW and CW series of electronically controlled transformers use a microprocessor chip between your button inputs (bell, whistle, and direction, as well as the throttle pot handle) resulting in a slight delay of the exact moment when you press a button and the resulting AC waveform signal is modified carrying that function. Same delay happens when you release the button- the signal continues to be output for just a split second. MTH PS1, PS2, and PS3 engine will operate under conventional control (varying track voltage and bell and whistle/horn DC offsets in the AC waveform) however, the advanced commands that require precisely timed short sequences of bell and whistle/horn can be trickier to get the correctly timed pulses to be read as a "function" rather than just random blowing the horn/whistle  or activating the bell. That's again a very specific function, so sure, you can "run" the train, but do you get all the features and functions- especially something that sometimes needs done- the reset command. Further, since these transformers are modifying a fixed 18V output to vary the track the voltage, they are not producing a pure sine wave power to the track. This especially matters in MTH PS1 engines- because they are conventional only with advanced control features, so they must be able to differentiate signals from smooth AC power and thus do not like and may not run on chopped or distorted power from such electronic controlled transformers.

And you might ask yourself- OK, so MTH transformers can run either MTH or Lionel. Yes, true, because MTH implemented the control using more analog components in the case of the modern Zcontroller, not a microcontroller. They also designed the circuit to attempt to smooth the AC power such to be more friendly and more sine wave like. So specifically a Zcontroller tends to have near instant response for bell, whistle and direction, and more friendly smoother AC power. I'm not saying it's pure sine wave and some earlier MTH PS1 still may not be happy as they improved the MTH PS1 firmware over time to be less picky and sensitive compared to the earlier versions. Again, the bottom line. MTH PS1 is a special case and depending on the engine and when it was produced it can be very picky about what transformer even works.

And finally, does the battery in the tender need to be there to run the train ? Yes, because MTH PS1 uses microprocessor for both control and sounds, and the battery keeps it running when you drop power for direction change. Also MTH engines start up in neutral and must be powered for at LEAST 20-30 seconds because there is a firmware wait or pause during the startup before you can switch to forward. This also charges either the battery or capacitors during this extended startup time. Again MTH must have a working battery or capacitor backup system working, and functional providing power to the microcontroller or else bad things can happen and ultimately you will not be able to run the engine.

So with that- MTH engine new to you, it's generally a good idea to open the shell, and identify the battery and if it is an original white one- immediately change it.

Again, if you see this white battery- no matter how good you think it looks, how brand new in the box it is- stop and replace it.

Any help on this would be appreciated.

Thanks for all the information everyone, I appreciate it !

As you can see, I am new to the MTH train world and their engines.

Anyway, to clarify, I have a Lionel GW 180 transformer (my bad, hit C instead of G)

I do not have the original box as I bought this from an estate sale and paid what I think was an extremely good price for it and they threw in a newer MTH Z1000 transformer which I have hooked up to my Lionel layout and it seems to work just great. The MTH train I have not run as yet.

So Vernon you mentioned in your reply that "bad things can happen" if there is no battery. Can you give me an idea as to what bad things other than the engine not running may happen, ie circuit boards burning out, motors burning out/freezing up etc ?

So just thinking out loud and based on the feed back, maybe I should power up my Lionel layout using the Z1000 instead of the GW 180 ?

Thanks for the list of approved transformers Richie C !

Again thanks everyone for your input.

@Marine 0311 posted:

So Vernon you mentioned in your reply that "bad things can happen" if there is no battery. Can you give me an idea as to what bad things other than the engine not running may happen, ie circuit boards burning out, motors burning out/freezing up etc ? On PS1 engines specifically, a low battery is the worst possible scenario because the firmware writes saved settings to memory using the battery at the END of a running session when power to the track is dropped. In brownout- where the battery voltage is low- you get corrupted data writes- thus "scrambling" the PS1 data setting table. So if you have no battery, flat out it won't and cannot run, because there is nothing to keep the state change from neutral to forward. With a bad battery or failing system, you get a bad data write that corrupts the chip and then you have a bigger problem. PS2 engines won't scramble in the same way typically, but they also won't run without a working battery subsystem. In fact, even in DCS, PS2 still needs the battery for the shutdown sequence and data write to permanent storage. So in general- that's why I said what I said- if you own an MTH- it needs a working fresh battery.

So just thinking out loud and based on the feed back, maybe I should power up my Lionel layout using the Z1000 instead of the GW 180 ?

You can try either, I think the Z1000 is the better choice for MTH, but again, you can try either one.

@Marine 0311 posted:

So Vernon you mentioned in your reply that "bad things can happen" if there is no battery.

The "finding out" part is not always proportional to the "messing around" value, any amount of "messing around" can cause a full "find out" situation.

To give perspective in $$$$ and parts on what "found out" is in MTH PS1.

This is a direct link to MTH parts and sales for PS1 Steam engine electronic parts listing. Here you would find the 3 major components of your electronics (PS1 board stack and matching PS1 sound chip. https://www.mthpartsandsales.c...lists/200?type=lists

Typically, a scrambled chip either requires the PS1 reset kit (unfortunately out of stock at the moment)

However, you can then buy a replacement sound chip for your specific loco- but then that's out of stock

and let's say something bad happens or a failing rechargeable battery kills the power board or upper board, then you are into $60 or another $100. Again, say that battery connector, not connected to a battery shorts into something and then damages a board.

Vernon knows a thousand times more than I'll ever know, so listen to him. What I've heard over the years, though, and to avoid issues generally, especially for novice operators, the safest bet (and simplest) is to use MTH transformers for MTH engines, and Lionel transformers for Lionel engines. Of course there are exceptions, but that complicates things.

With the newest stuff, this may be less true than it used to be, I'm not sure.

Ditto!!! Vernon's advice on MTH PS1, PS2, and PS3 loco's is invaluable!!!

I can say from my own personal experience with early PS1 loco's how fussy they are to even get out of the initial "start-up" state, and move forward, even with a Z1000 transformer/controller.

Good luck.....and make sure you have a fully charged battery in that tender before you try anything.

Peter.......Buco Australia

I think the advice here, while great, has gone a little too fast.

@Marine 0311 the first step should be to positively identify which model of the MTH/Rail King Southern Pacific 4-8-4 you have.

If you don’t have the box, the best way to identify which version it is, is to look for a PS2 or PS3 sticker on the bottom. If it doesn’t have one, then you’ll have to remove the shell of the tender and take some pictures of the electronics in there. Post the pictures back to this thread and we can probably give some more specific advice.

Afternoon everyone:

rplst8 I have attached several photos as you requested of the electronics in the tender. There is no sticker on the under side of the engine. The tender has a Lot 24 stamped inside of it for whatever that means. I hope the pictures help out.

Once again, thanks everyone for your help on this !

OK, so with those pictures, every word I said is valid:

#1 it's Protosound 1 (PS1) by QSI

#2 It's subject to the preferred sine wave output transformer list provided in PS1 instructions as best practice.

https://ogrforum.com/...D%20TRANSFORMERS.pdf

#3 It requires a rechargeable 9V battery for operation. A device called a BCR (Battery Capacitor Replacement) can also be substituted. Also, if you see a white battery- that is original and should immediately be replaced before running or attempting even testing. Later replacement OEM batteries are green or silver labeled.

#4 Following MTH PS1 operating instructions is important, as failing to wait on power up will not get out of Neutral unless you wait.

#5 The PS1 is possible to scramble and also may be subject to locking out. These conditions can prevent running.

Instructions and other details links:

Possible product page for your engine (PS1 SP Daylight GS-4) https://mthtrains.com/30-1119-1

Engine manual PS1 https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...ction/30st10711i.pdf

https://mthtrains.com/sites/de...shooting%20chart.pdf

https://ogrforum.com/...3#145297443381074083

how to reset 18 using Z4000 https://ogrforum.com/...D%20TRANSFORMERS.pdf

Similar SP GS-4 PS1 engine topic https://ogrforum.com/...no-sound-or-movement

Hey Vernon......looking at the photos, I couldn't see the sign of any battery what so ever. It is usually tucked under the bottom board, but I can see right through it in photo No. 2. I can't even see the battery connection cable to the circuit board.

This thing will never run in the absence of a good battery or BCR. The OP needs to address this issue straight away before trying anything else.

Peter....Buco Australia

Hey everyone

There is the connection for the battery, just have not installed one while waiting to discuss on this forum.

Everyone has given me a wealth of information about this issue and so I need to digest it all. I thank each and everyone of you. I certainly know way more than I did before.

@Buco posted:

Hey Vernon......looking at the photos, I couldn't see the sign of any battery what so ever. It is usually tucked under the bottom board, but I can see right through it in photo No. 2. I can't even see the battery connection cable to the circuit board.

This thing will never run in the absence of a good battery or BCR. The OP needs to address this issue straight away before trying anything else.

Peter....Buco Australia

Agree, don't see the battery, the snap looks to be just off camera to the left (red and black wires)

@Marine 0311 posted:

Afternoon everyone:

rplst8 I have attached several photos as you requested of the electronics in the tender. There is no sticker on the under side of the engine. The tender has a Lot 24 stamped inside of it for whatever that means. I hope the pictures help out.

Definitely did, and that’s definitely the original Proto-Sound a.k.a. PS1.

Everything Vernon stated is true and notably, the list of recommended transformers posted earlier in the thread DOES NOT APPLY. The manual that Vernon linked above has the correct list of recommended transformers on page 34.

@Marine 0311 posted:

Seems I read someplace that the Lionel train transformers don't play well with MTH trains, but Lionel trains will run fine using MTH transformers.

This is definitely not the case.

Which transformer to use, in other words which one(s) will "work", has very little to do with whether it was made by Lionel or MTH.

There are examples from each manufacturer that have trouble operating the other's locomotives, and their own at times, especially for MTH's earliest stuff.

It has more to do with the technology inside them.  Some (newer ones) have advanced electronics, some (older, traditional ones) do not.

The simpler, more traditional ones work better with MTH's early products.

Largely those are the transformers captured in MTH's list, i.e. the page 34 list.  Unless you feel like experimenting I would stick with that list.

Mike

Also, keep something else in mind.  Locomotives with PS-1 can be quite finicky to get moving, especially the very first models.  The instructions must be followed carefully or they won't roll down the track.  They'll sound a pronounced "clank" twice and just sit there when you bring the power up.

Those of us with patience put up with them.  Those with very little patience have the command electronics converted to something more modern, and responsive, to get over the need for patience.

Mike

BTW -- If you hear them clank three times after applying the power you have a bigger problem, so carefully note whether you get two or three clanks.

Afternoon everyone.....thanks again for all of your input on this MTH power question, I sincerely appreciate it. Going to digest and read everything and look at links that was posted to my question.

Afternoon everyone:

So after all of the above help it seems that the memory chip may be no good in this 4-8-4 GS 4 Rail King Northern Steam Engine PRO 1 unit. When I put the fresh suggested rechargeable battery (green) into it, after fully charging the battery, and using my Z1000 transformer the engine will not move. The head lights do not work and the only sound coming from the tender is like a low volume crackling sound.

So I am thinking of replacing the guts of the tender with a Williams 6 AMP Reverse Board. As I understand it, I may loose some functions, but I may gain at least a workable engine.

Any suggestions ?

Thanks everyone for the help.

@Marine 0311 posted:

Afternoon everyone:

So after all of the above help it seems that the memory chip may be no good in this 4-8-4 GS 4 Rail King Northern Steam Engine PRO 1 unit. When I put the fresh suggested rechargeable battery (green) into it, after fully charging the battery, and using my Z1000 transformer the engine will not move. The head lights do not work and the only sound coming from the tender is like a low volume crackling sound.

So I am thinking of replacing the guts of the tender with a Williams 6 AMP Reverse Board. As I understand it, I may loose some functions, but I may gain at least a workable engine.

Any suggestions ?

Thanks everyone for the help.

Sorry but this is a mixed bag of test results:

#1 while generally a Z1000- especially newer ones have better output- it's not pure sine wave. There is a chance this engine demands pure sine wave power. In this case, I don't think this is why you do not get sounds, but could be a reason to not get motion.

#2 The headlight is powered DIRECTLY from track power. It has nothing, and I mean nothing to do with the PS1 electronics in steam. Again, the headlight and smoke unit in a PS1 steam engine- are track powered- they get power from the engine frame (wheels) and pickup roller and should work even with the tender not even plugged in.

So, this mixed bag of testing questions how well and what we really tested. Again, being no headlight and no smoke, I'm not even sure you had power going to the board.

Sure, one could put a Williams 6 Amp in it. Easy to do since the 4 wires in the tether make this easy. Power, Ground, Motor+, Motor-

And yes, you would lose sounds and electrocoupler control. Smoke and headlight would remain as before- again they have nothing to do with the tender.

Again, that result- no headlight- either it's burned out, loose in the socket (they are screw in bulbs and this does happen) or the engine was simply not getting power. And because of that- the testing sequence- did you actually get power where it was supposed to go- becomes a very real possibility.

Two questions:

1.) Do you hear the two 'clanks' when you move the throttle up from zero?  If only static then you can try pulling the chip and reinstalling it.  This often cleans the electrical contacts between the chip and its socket and restores operation,  You'll need a chip puller tool.  They're not terribly expensive.

2.) If that doesn't work and you're up to it there's currently a replacement PS1 board set for sale by another forum member at a pretty good price.  Should be no rewiring, just a plug in, although after installation you'll have to download and install the correct files for your model in order to get the original sounds that match your model:

Follow this link:

   MTH QSI ProtoSounds 1 Complete Sound System (8/15/23) } Mikado 4501

Mike

Thanks to everyone for your input.