LIONEL PREWAR 223 SWITCH TO A PREWAR 76 BLOCK SIGNAL

Not sure what you're trying to accomplish but you did use insulated pins on the switch? 

outside tracks are insulated.  do you know if the 76 block signal alternates sides. by the present wiring I see nothing other than two wires going from the base to the lights

j. constible posted:

outside tracks are insulated.  do you know if the 76 block signal alternates sides. by the present wiring I see nothing other than two wires going from the base to the lights

There are three terminals. One is the common, which uses a ground to the base. The two wires must be one for each light. You should be able to alternate it somehow.

George

This is fairly complex to get done... are you looking for turnout indication, occupancy detection, or something else?

George S posted:

j. constible posted:

outside tracks are insulated.  do you know if the 76 block signal alternates sides. by the present wiring I see nothing other than two wires going from the base to the lights

There are three terminals. One is the common, which uses a ground to the base. The two wires must be one for each light. You should be able to alternate it somehow.

George

pics

George S posted:

j. constible posted:

outside tracks are insulated.  do you know if the 76 block signal alternates sides. by the present wiring I see nothing other than two wires going from the base to the lights

There are three terminals. One is the common, which uses a ground to the base. The two wires must be one for each light. You should be able to alternate it somehow.

George

pics

Rob English posted:

This is fairly complex to get done... are you looking for turnout indication, occupancy detection, or something else?

as the switch changes, I would like the to switch

Agree with Rob but here's a photo of an original box pulled from the web (no longer able to find the source) hope it helps. On a straight run- one outside rail needs insulated in addition to insulated pins.  Hopefully you can see the image ok

John H. Shetler posted:

Agree with Rob but here's a photo of an original box pulled from the web (no longer able to find the source) hope it helps. On a straight run- one outside rail needs insulated in addition to insulated pins.  Hopefully you can see the image ok

thank ya kindly, I thought I could hook it directly to the 223 switch and as the switch changes, so does the light on the 76

j. constible posted:

Rob English posted:

This is fairly complex to get done... are you looking for turnout indication, occupancy detection, or something else?

as the switch changes, I would like the to switch

Problem with this is the power to change the switch is momentary. You would need the power  routing relay set up for turnout direction.   John showed the occupancy detection circuit.

j. constible posted:

Rob English posted:

This is fairly complex to get done... are you looking for turnout indication, occupancy detection, or something else?

as the switch changes, I would like the to switch

The screw on the bottom of the picture that does not have a fiber washer is the common. Both lights use this and the electricity travels through the metal of the base and pole. The wires are for each light.

George

turnout indicator

In wiring things like a 156 block signal. The center post is the hot and the outside post is common. Momentary motor does not matter as center is switch, track power or accessory. The commons should be for each light individually.

F&G RY posted:

 Momentary motor does not matter as center is switch, track power or accessory. The commons should be for each light individually.

How do you route the power to each lights conductor then? Its easy if you wire for blocks- you can tie the light directly to each block, but it will not be automatic...which JConstible is looking for. The switch machine power is momentary and will not work as a source UNLESS you add power routing for the 76 lights.  The light on the switch is constant on, from track power, but there is no way to use that in an automatic set up.  Beside, any modification to the switch wiring means removing the back of the switch... not good. That the structure of the 76 OR the wires can be used as the common has no impact except for ease of connection.

There would always be power to both light bulbs. What turns each bulb on is the common from the switch. The bulb lit is the same thing as the lit bulb on the switch controller. Three posts for controller. center is hot. outer 2 open and close. Only one common activated at a time or switch will flutter.

Jim C.... I apologize, and humbly eat a big pile of crow at your feet.  You are spot on.  

I  got the bright idea to test you wrong....guess who was wrong???  LOL, I was. I was not reading your posts right either.

J Constible...Just wire the 76 direct to the posts on the switch for the controller.  A to the center post, Each B to the corresponding outer posts. Simple as that.

Geez-o-pete.  Crow doesn't taste all that good.

Rob English posted:

Jim C.... I apologize, and humbly eat a big pile of crow at your feet.  You are spot on.  

I  got the bright idea to test you wrong....guess who was wrong???  LOL, I was. I was not reading your posts right either.

J Constible...Just wire the 76 direct to the posts on the switch for the controller.  A to the center post, Each B to the corresponding outer posts. Simple as that.

Geez-o-pete.  Crow doesn't taste all that good.

Well, I’m with you. It sure seems backward that hot is through the frame and ‘common’ to both bulbs, but I understand why it works. It’s a neat solution. I’ll share your crow.😟 

George 

Aw shucks Rob, if everyone was always right it'd be a perfect world and we all know that ain't happening. ..look at it this way - J Constible and probably others got a better understanding of how to do.....

John H. Shetler posted:

Aw shucks Rob, if everyone was always right it'd be a perfect world and we all know that ain't happening. ..look at it this way - J Constible and probably others got a better understanding of how to do.....

At least I (and others) got something out of it!

Back to rinsing now...

Rob English posted:

John H. Shetler posted:

Aw shucks Rob, if everyone was always right it'd be a perfect world and we all know that ain't happening. ..look at it this way - J Constible and probably others got a better understanding of how to do.....

At least I (and others) got something out of it!

Back to rinsing now...

 

I really appreciate all the chatter. Taking the back of the switch off was just a matter of bending tabs. after hearing every ones thoughts. It came to me to create two separate lights instead of keeping them together. I want the each light to operate with each side of the switch.

thank ya kindly.

Rob English posted:

Jim C.... I apologize, and humbly eat a big pile of crow at your feet.  You are spot on.  

I  got the bright idea to test you wrong....guess who was wrong???  LOL, I was. I was not reading your posts right either.

J Constible...Just wire the 76 direct to the posts on the switch for the controller.  A to the center post, Each B to the corresponding outer posts. Simple as that.

Geez-o-pete.  Crow doesn't taste all that good.

both lights come on at same time, I would like one light on for direction

Ya might want to start looking at 2 semaphores instead or perhaps another 76 ?

John H. Shetler posted:

Ya might want to start looking at 2 semaphores instead or perhaps another 76 ?

Sounds like your outside rails are connected and not insulated. You can test with a multimeter set to ohms, no power necessary.

George

George S posted:

John H. Shetler posted:

Ya might want to start looking at 2 semaphores instead or perhaps another 76 ?

Sounds like your outside rails are connected and not insulated. You can test with a multimeter set to ohms, no power necessary.

George

Answered a little too fast. Wheels bridge the outside rails over the switch.

George

j. constible posted:

Rob English posted:

Jim C.... I apologize, and humbly eat a big pile of crow at your feet.  You are spot on.  

I  got the bright idea to test you wrong....guess who was wrong???  LOL, I was. I was not reading your posts right either.

J Constible...Just wire the 76 direct to the posts on the switch for the controller.  A to the center post, Each B to the corresponding outer posts. Simple as that.

Geez-o-pete.  Crow doesn't taste all that good.

both lights come on at same time, I would like one light on for direction

Your are probable just hooking it up wrong.... maybe even the 76 is wired wrong...

First Check and see  which terminal is set up as the "ground" its usually the "A" terminal.  You can tell because there are no insulators on the binding post. Attach A to the center post.... Then you can attach the outer posts on the switch and usually the "B" terminals together respectively . You may have an internal switch problem, though I suspect these are rare. Also make sure the switch is thrown completely. A switch not completely thrown will light both lamps.

I think this is what J. Constible is after? I run o gauge and was in the process of putting away stuff anyhow so tried it out- gauge size shouldn't matter with these switches. Please note that this is using track power. Forgive the crude drawing and table clutter. If you want constant voltage refer to another thread by Dreyfuss Hudson/Ron M. I'm not tearing my switch apart to try it. Hope it helps...

Looks Right to me John.

@Rob English posted:

Looks Right to me John.

@John H. Shetler posted:

I think this is what J. Constible is after? I run o gauge and was in the process of putting away stuff anyhow so tried it out- gauge size shouldn't matter with these switches. Please note that this is using track power. Forgive the crude drawing and table clutter. If you want constant voltage refer to another thread by Dreyfuss Hudson/Ron M. I'm not tearing my switch apart to try it. Hope it helps...

I haven't tried this yet, but I am having trouble wrapping my head around it, so this reply is for Rob, John and Jim C who did the original post. I have a wiring diagram I made somewhere of my prewar 012 switches but I can't find it.. These are not non-derailing switches (I believe). I have them on constant voltage, not track power. If these questions are foolish, bear with me.

John's wiring diagram isn't detailed enough for me to tell what is happening. Maybe someone can do a full wiring diagram with the internal switch wiring as well? Since power is routed through the three posts on the switch by a momentary throw switch that activates the solenoid just long enough to flip the switch, how does this permanently light the lamps? Rob said something about good contact from the rails? Is the circuit powered through the rails?

And an unrelated question- John, your diagram shows insulating pins in the center rail at all three legs, so how do the track or solenoids of your switch get power?

Can anyone shed some light (pun intended) on this, because I like the idea of having a signal indicate the switch direction without a relay.

In the hand-drawn diagram, is the selector switch momentary or steady?  If steady, then the lights will work as required, but it seems that there will also be steady current to the half of the switch motor that has been selected.  I suspect that the switch motor will get hot and release the magic smoke if it is left energized too long.

What you really need is a 5-position switch that is configured as (on)-on-off-on-(on).  The outer positions in brackets are momentary, the ones next to the center off position are constant.  I'm not sure if such a switch exists.

It can be done with relays. Most things can be.

Uggg Will, that was awhile ago. Stuff is packed away but I hear what your saying about the diagram. Don't mistake the fiber board track insulation for pin insulators. More than one has shifted or broken on me in the past and caused headaches till it was found. I drew them in to show the common rail (s) if I recall correctly. The track clip for power isn't shown and they are non derailing switches.

"Upon further review"...if you can tell us a few things about the switch:

I assume that the switch is powered from the track, directly? Does it derive power from the 3rd rail of the tracks that are connect to it?

Is it possible to get to the guts of the switch machine, and find the ground connection? (the connection of the common return from the two switch coils, where they get the ground supply from the outside rails?)

If you are willing to unsolder that connection, and run a pair of  wires from that point back to the place where you are going to mount the controller, you can get the signal lamps to stay steady, by selecting the red or green lamp, and then provide a momentary pulse for the switch machine, using the addition of a simple pushbutton next to the selector.

Actually, it will operate in a semi-prototypical way: you set the signal and the route, then push a button to "start" the route change through the interlocking.

Let me know if you want to pursue this scheme, and we can either continue discussing it here on the forum, or we can have a private com by tel.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

"Upon further review"...if you can tell us a few things about the switch:

I assume that the switch is powered from the track, directly? Does it derive power from the 3rd rail of the tracks that are connect to it?

Is it possible to get to the guts of the switch machine, and find the ground connection? (the connection of the common return from the two switch coils, where they get the ground supply from the outside rails?)

If you are willing to unsolder that connection, and run a pair of  wires from that point back to the place where you are going to mount the controller, you can get the signal lamps to stay steady, by selecting the red or green lamp, and then provide a momentary pulse for the switch machine, using the addition of a simple pushbutton next to the selector.

Actually, it will operate in a semi-prototypical way: you set the signal and the route, then push a button to "start" the route change through the interlocking.

Let me know if you want to pursue this scheme, and we can either continue discussing it here on the forum, or we can have a private com by tel.

I get what you are saying, Arthur, and it is more in line with what I would have thought. Although at that point, why not just wire the signal to a switch at the board, since you have two switches anyway? Why rewire the switch?

I'm trying to figure out what what Jim C. described, Rob English elaborated on, and John tested out, successfully. I'll have to try to find that wiring diagram and maybe test it out.

The main issue is the fact (?) that the controller (I use that word to differentiate from the track switch) does not have momentary contacts. Am I correct?  If that is true, then it cannot be used, with or without a signal, to operate the switch, because the switch requires a momentary pulse, not a constant flow of current.

We are trying to provide steady current for the signal, to indicate the state of the switch, but also trying to provide a momentary pulse to the switch, which cannot tolerate a steady current.  The controller has only one set of contacts, and they are, I believe, constant contacts.

I'm not sure what you mean by the fact that there are two controllers. I assume that you want to have the signal indicate the switch status. Of course you can imitate that operation with two controllers, but we still haven't solved the issue of constant vs momentary contacts for the switch machine.

Again, I'm not pulling all that stuff out of storage right now. Even if I do, I'm not tearing into a switch that works fine just to prove or disprove a problem. The distant controller, if I remember correctly is spring loaded and momentary (same as more modern controller). One thing that might be affecting what Will is trying to accomplish is the fact his switch is not - non derailing? Isn't that difference between a O11 and a O12 ? The O12 does not have the non derailing feature. All this circa 1933 Lionel catalog. Yes, I did all testing via track power- for the third time. But then again, I could be full of horse hockey!

Now that I know that the controller is momentary, I can definitely tell you that just wiring the signal in parallel with the switch motor terminals will not get you the results that you want.  They receive a pulse when the controller is operated. The signal lamps will receive the same momentary pulse, and will not stay lit. This whole discussion, like many on forums, has wandered off, and has not used the scientific method, so essential in solving electrical issues.

I will not belabor the points that I have made, since now we learn that the issue is more of an intellectual exercise, than a problem to be solved in the present time. 

In case there are members who want to know the punch line, so to speak, here it is: signals required a steady supply to operate, track switches do not. Using a momentary controller to try to do this will not work.  If anyone wants to discuss or debate this, let's open a new thread, and let this one die off, since the OP seems content to do so.

I would be delighted to read, in another thread, or via private messages, how the presence or absence of the derailing feature would affect the operation of the signal using the parts being discussed.

@John H. Shetler posted:

Again, I'm not pulling all that stuff out of storage right now. Even if I do, I'm not tearing into a switch that works fine just to prove or disprove a problem. The distant controller, if I remember correctly is spring loaded and momentary (same as more modern controller). One thing that might be affecting what Will is trying to accomplish is the fact his switch is not - non derailing? Isn't that difference between a O11 and a O12 ? The O12 does not have the non derailing feature. All this circa 1933 Lionel catalog. Yes, I did all testing via track power- for the third time. But then again, I could be full of horse hockey!

No worries, John. I actually haven't tried it and I do have 012 switches on the layout, so if it it somehow connected to the non derailing feature it wouldn't work anyway. I have some 011s too, and if I get ambitious I may drag them out and open one up and see if I can solve the mystery. In the meantime, I may just go with plan B.

@Arthur P. Bloom posted:

Now that I know that the controller is momentary, I can definitely tell you that just wiring the signal in parallel with the switch motor terminals will not get you the results that you want.  They receive a pulse when the controller is operated. The signal lamps will receive the same momentary pulse, and will not stay lit. This whole discussion, like many on forums, has wandered off, and has not used the scientific method, so essential in solving electrical issues.

I will not belabor the points that I have made, since now we learn that the issue is more of an intellectual exercise, than a problem to be solved in the present time.

In case there are members who want to know the punch line, so to speak, here it is: signals required a steady supply to operate, track switches do not. Using a momentary controller to try to do this will not work.  If anyone wants to discuss or debate this, let's open a new thread, and let this one die off, since the OP seems content to do so.

I would be delighted to read, in another thread, or via private messages, how the presence or absence of the derailing feature would affect the operation of the signal using the parts being discussed.

Arthur, I and everyone else know this- that the switch controllers are momentary and therefore wouldn't change the lights except momentarily were they wired through them. I was only responding to the posts in the thread. Did you read the entire thread? Two different people suggested a method of wiring that keeps them lit and eliminates the need for a relay and John tested it and it worked. Just was trying to figure out the wiring.

Well I just picked up (3) 076 basket cases on the bay and they will be the about the last accessory for my Christmas display layout. I was about to go with 153s because I was having trouble finding a couple of these at a reasonable price. These will give a bit more of a vintage look. Now how to wire them. They are meant to be simple block signals, but it would be interesting to make flashers out of them. The problem is it's hard to find the correct lanterns for them which are either all red or all green. Most of those you find now have switch lanterns, which are green on two sides and red on two sides. So I may take the lanterns apart and swap. The green is too dark to see anyway, and I have some lighting gel samples which which I can make a light green. ( I have extra lanterns. but will need a finial or two)

After I get them and restore them, I'll wire them up and report back.

Great to see your post Will. Yes, the rings on the lanterns come off ok but bending the tabs back in place can be a pain. Can't wait to see the results!