Lionel's cancelations

What he said ^^^. 

This is a notion has been expressed several times, if it wasn't for the fact that the idea of Lionel backing out would be so detrimental to the growth of the hobby (S) it would really be beating a dead horse. 

I have more money tied up in Legacy and S gauge and it would sicken me at this point to calculate how much - if indeed Lionel is done with the expansion of high rail scale.  

I hope that 2015 is just a year Lionel is taking off so to speak, let the overstocked items thin out some (looks like they are doing that to some degree on the O side). I hope 2016 looks more like 2012.  I was excited to see that 2012 catalog!  

if there is an area that we can control, it's as Rocco says...feedback.  I have talked with Matt A personally on many occasions, I have sent emails with suggestions (and some have been made!). Beat the drums, constructive criticism is better than "you all suck and here's why" - which CAN be hard to do at times. Emotion is always swifter than reason.  

At this point I would be happy with Lionel producing the nice legacy locos, and looking to MTH for rolling stock innovation.  Whatever it takes.  I have committed to the growth of legacy in S and will find it hard to walk away. 

There is a vocal number of people who want conventional all the way, old school tec in new produced engines.  I get it, I know the reasons...but for the same reason everyone is evolving with modern tec (apps and all that) S HAS TOO as well to survive.  

It would be nice to get Lionel to throw out a "relax, we are not going anywhere" to us S gauge (scale high rail legacy) guys....

Ben. 

I don't know about S gauge, but in O gauge they are going to more 'built to order' items. If the pre-orders are not there to justify a production run by the order due date, the product will probably not be made. Maybe if more people pre-ordered it would help? I think the days of train manufacturers just making things to see if they will sell is quickly coming to an end.

Since S gauge seems to be a much smaller market then O gauge (although I have never understood why?) I would think the pre-orders would be much more of a factor as to whether something gets made or not. With the costs rising the distributors and dealers are not going to want to take the risks on the sales of a product either.

I too thought that the whole purpose of "pre-order" was to gauge the amount of product that was to be made.  If not, then what's the point? 

I ordered both the C&O and NKP sets, and am very disappointed they aren't going to be made.   Was their pre-order that dismal? 

As far as having conventional vs TMCC or Legacy, I do prefer conventional, but perhaps the Flyer Chief will bring me around.   I'm not adverse to change, just change that costs me money.   It WOULD be nice to access a few of the features on my recent purchases.

Jerry

Although I agree about the need to preorder especially if we want to see new tooling made, when it comes to the issue of bringing new people into S Gauge and RTR sets to me preorders are not a good indicator.  Although I had friends who are knowledgeable and wanted to get into S, they are the exception and not the rule.  New customers have to see the set and it's quality and appeal.

What I find very interesting in an official Lionel American Flyer site Lionel alluded to the fact that there was not much interest in the 2 Berkshire RTR sets.  Yet in the same note they wanted to know how I preordered it since they never officially posted a list price for dealers to take orders.  I find that comment interesting in that if they did not take orders from their dealers, how did they know there was not enough interest.  Secondly I worked with a dealer who did take my preorders.

I have a hard time believing there was not enough interest in the NKP set, there was just no way to pre order it...there was never a price. Who's gunna sign up and commit to/for anything without knowing what the final price is. 

Ben 

I too am very disappointed by the cancellation of the Berkshire sets.  None of the dealers that I regularly work with indicated that they could be "pre-ordered". If they had been, I would have pre-ordered both.  The updside to this story is that the Berks will be available for separate sell.  I hope someone from Lionel reads this thread as I would hate to see the Berks cancelled altogether. 

It's pretty obvious that not opening up the C&O and NKP sets for preorders would tend to stifle same.  After all, if you can't put them in the database, how does one know if there's interest or not.  Is Lionel relying on word of mouth as their only marketing tool nowadays?

If I were to speculate (which of course is something I never ever do...**cough** **cough**)  My guess would be that: 1) The other two sets would compete with preorders of the Polar Express set, 2) Preorders for the Polar Express have not met Lionel's expectations.  (After all, they've been saturating the PE market for a decade...)

This almost appears to be a near repeat of the ES44 pattern.  By releasing separate sale Berks in five roadnames, they get the use out of the tooling then can discontinue that part of the line with minimal loss.  Well, at least they're not listed as "limited quantities produced,"  At least not yet...

It's somewhat interesting that there are no "matching" cars of any kind (caboose, passenger, freight) being offered to compliment the Berkshires.  Would've been nice to have seen at least an NKP, Erie and Southern steam-era bay window caboose and a PM and C&O 930-style caboose offered.  Maybe next catalog, maybe not.

Of course, we have no idea when the Berkshires are scheduled to arrive.  6 months? 1 year? 2 years?

Rusty

When I talked to dealers they have all said they got plenty of orders for the PE.  I don't think there is any link between the sets.  Really they didn't cancel the C&O and NKP sets as they were just "previewed" in the 2014 catalog.  Dealers taking pre orders were just guessing on price and if you paid a percentage for a pre order they got to use your money.  When I interview Matt Ashba at York for the S Gaugian I will ask him why they are not being made.

For me, I am glad they are not making these sets.  I don't want the cars and track but, I want the Nickel Plate Berk. Plus now with 5 road names more people will be happy with a choice.

Personally, I think to taunt folks with a "preview" for two years is a cheat.  A preview is a view of things to come, not of things not coming.  (O.K., O.K., at least the locomotives are coming...  maybe...)

Either have the items available for preorder(at least by the second year) or don't bother cataloging the item.  Customer loyalty isn't built up by stringing them along.

If there was no potential of siphoning preorders from the PE set by the regular sets, then they probably could have stood on their own, along with offering separate sale Berkshires with different numbers from the sets.  After all, I'm pretty sure the NKP and C&O had more than one Berkshire each.  At least I think they did.

Rusty

It's happening in O gauge as well. The Lionel 2014 v2 catalog had several items with no pricing as did some other catalogs last year. However, I think most of the O gauge items have just re-appeared with pricing in the recent 2015 O gauge catalog. Maybe they are just putting out feelers to see what dealers and customers think of an item before actually producing something? Then I suppose there could have been production problems, other projects of higher interest using up the resources, boss over-riding something the designers & engineers really wanted to do or something else along these lines as well?

Having Roundhouse Bill asking them for the S magazine will be something to watch for. Maybe that will also shed some light on what they are thinking for other lines as well?

You folks over here seem a lot more receptive to the idea of pre-ordering. Quite a few of the O gaugers over in the other forums don't seem to think much of the idea. There have been several discussions over there about the same issues. Personally I pre-order almost everything I purchase. The only items I don't pre-order are things I miss or, after having not wanted something when the catalog was issued, I later decide I just have to have it. So far I have not had anything cancelled that I have pre-ordered.

Although I already have Fastrack and a transformer as an American Flyer fan I ordered them and wanted them as they are needed to bring more people into S gauge market RTR starter sets are one of the better ways to do that.  Not everyone loves the Polar Express. 

I also feel having 5 Berkshires for separate sale each requiring its own Lionel wireless controller is a mistake.  If Lionel was smart they would have designed them to work with the Lionel wireless or Legacy.  This way as an intro you start with the wireless and then as you bought more engines and we're tired of all the separate controller you graduated to Legacy.

--Rocco--

The O Gaugers have beaten that subject to death and beyond.

There's rumblings of a multi-locomotive remote coming, but no function via Legacy controller.

Rusty

Bill,

Although I too could have done without the track, I would have loved the C&O passenger cars.  As much as some folks bad-mouthed the new heavyweights as not being like the classic Gilbert cars, I think they're a great addition to anybody's fleet.  Now if they only had interiors...

And I'm very anxious to hear what Matt Ashba has to say about their cancellation. 

>> It's happening in O gauge as well.

Perhaps what we are witnessing with both O and S is that die cast NASCAR racing cars are a lot more profitable than toy trains.  Couple that with the new Lionel CEO being from the racing car side of the business.  Not to mention that all of the wide-flung Lionel facilities are being consolidated into the NASCAR building in North Carolina.  Just thinking out loud with no inside info.  Ed L. 

Question to the group.

If someone wanted to complain and voice their disapointment, is there a preferred contact that is more willing to listen and respond based on your past experience?  If so would you be willing to share that contact information with the group?

--Rocco--

Are people watching the news?  The log jam on the west coast docks by the unions are keeping ships from China from unloading and it could last for months.  Lionel and MTH may be waiting a long time to get new products to us.

I could be wrong about this but I thought someone posted that Lionel's shipments were to the east coast through the Panama Canal.