Lionel's first steam engine celebrating 110 years old

Amazing!! Thanks for sharing!!

I love it!  Thanks for posting!

    Scott

That is awesome!  What a great runner.  Thanks for that.  Beautiful train.

Very nice love the 17 caboose with the window awnings.

Great looking set up there!  BTW:  I'm looking at my next layout's table top surface to be hardwood flooring as well... that's how they used to be played with, and I'm not one for breaking tradition

Hi Carey, Happy Birthday to your locomotive. Some of its younger siblings, my locomotives, are going on 78 this year. They were first built in 1939. 

Tom

Great stuff!    I like that caboose a lot more than the later ribbed cars!    Question, what is "split pin track"?  None of my books mention it.

Becky

Pre-War Steve posted:

Great looking set up there!  BTW:  I'm looking at my next layout's table top surface to be hardwood flooring as well... that's how they used to be played with, and I'm not one for breaking tradition

    I took a colorful old fashioned rope rug and set it on a table sitting on some rocks outside a few summers ago, just so I could say I had a nice quiet carpet layout OR garden layout, lol. All without the bending associated with either too.  I used ratty old track, left it out all year, then tossed it all in the spring lol. Nothing like a good plan seen through to a finish. I may recreate it this year?

But the subject at hand? Awesome    I've seen a loco like that in a showcase, but Gramps didn't run his tin .

That is "Cool"!

I like your table idea as well!

Enjoy!

Hello tinplate world ..

Thank you for your kind words about a centenarian + ten  train .   

Lionel had been manufacturing it's 2 7/8" line of trolleys and motor cars from 1901 ....in 1906 they decided to additionally bring out another smaller gauge line of trains ....  they called it 2" gauge ...in reality it measured 2 1/8" ... apparently  Lionel lacked a tape measure when they first laid out the track.   In 1906  Carlisle & Finch, Knapp and Howard were actually building 2" trains ...that were indeed 2" .    So was Lionel being funny ? misleading ?  or had a strange way of measuring that the rest of the world is unaware of? ...whatever the case "standard gauge" was born ...when it was anything but a "standard".   

The other boys offered a 36" diameter for their trains ...so Lionel leading from the rear does the same ...which worked for the little standard gauge  trolleys  ( #1,#2, #3 ) .... March / April 1907 when Lionel was designing their first steam engine # 5  (040)  ... and sights on the #6  ( 440) ...they quickly realized 36" was not going to do it ...... and 42" diameter was launched upon the world .... and why your 400 E is forced to turn on the same radius as a 8. 

The holy grail of Lionel  is not a State set , # 9 trolley , crackle 400 E etc etc ...no it the original  36" track ...  so far it has evaded  the human eye since the first half of 1907 when it was replaced with the new and improved  "split pin" track and a 42" radius .

Split pin term comes from the center pin ......which is split ....in half ..so  track to the left has half a center pin and track to the right has half a center pin slide together ... the logic is much much surface for the electrical contact ... this idea was patent in 1909 filed under Harry C Grant name ...the other partner to Josh that you never hear about from    1901-1909 .

Split pin track also has very narrow ties with no folded foot at the bottom ...so a nice razor sharp bottom edge ...additionally very weak, lacking any ribbing for stiffness.  

Initially the curves only had 3 ties ...way too flimsy ..so they added a 4th ...  the switches are lovely hold overs from the 2 7/8" line with a cast iron stand ..... Split pin track is a bit on the light side and bends very  easily ....  when the improved version track with the "normal" conventional "wide" ties with the ribbed base appeared in 1912 /3 .... which is slightly lower than the early track ...was not compatible ..so train folks were forced to up grade the mainline to the heavier , stiffer , more robust , durable track that everyone is familiar with. .  ( to further confuse the issue there was a short period were split pins were used on the wider tie track  ... but a very short period before switching to solid pins in the center).   

The idea of the floor surface for the layout dawned on me when seeing a photo of an original C&F layout snaking around in an attic along the floor ....... ( no disparaging words   to indoor / out door carpet ...but it just does not mix with the early period I was trying to re- capture ).   In the future as the layout take shape I'll post more photos and you can be the judge as the the overall effect.

Here we have some split pin photos and the patent ..

also a nice article from 1967 with photos of an outstanding early layout  circa 1917 ....  several of the pieces on the layout date to 1910....track split pin track used  ....probably the world largest stash of split pin track .  Lucky to be a kid in that room !

using split pin track today .....  swimming up stream anyone ?  

Cheers Carey

Neato!

Very nice Carey, but where's your tender?

Here is the prototype for that engine, followed by some of the early production models. This is what started it all.

NJCJOE posted:

Very nice Carey, but where's your tender?

The thin rimmed 1906-1907 #5 didn't come with a tender, just a coal bunker.  The 5 special, 1906-1909, did have a tender but also had the coal bunker.  So in short, without the original box or a signed affidavit from the original owner they're very hard to tell apart. 

"Split pin term comes from the center pin ......which is split ....in half ..so  track to the left has half a center pin and track to the right has half a center pin slide together ... the logic is much much surface for the electrical contact ... this idea was patent in 1909 filed under Harry C Grant name ...the other partner to Josh that you never hear about from    1901-1909 ."

Interesting.  The oldest track I have is from 1917(?) and has what look like roofing nails (Sharp!  Roofing nails!  ) with a small dimple (on the end that stays in the rail) for track pins.  Some also have the brass wire connectors.

Hello Tinplaters

Thank you for posting the John's lovely collection of "very" early Lionel ...

When the #5 was first introduced 1907 there was no tender .... this is a 1907 engine ..the  5 special ( with bobber tender)  was introduced the following year .  

Lionel  was trying to get into the toy train world ...expanding from the trolley world.  So in NYC you had various little steamers running on the elevated line that Josh took to work each day ...and ran next to his "factory" ..so that could have been an inspiration...... and the big fish in the electric toy train world was Carlisle and Finch ....first to introduce an electric steam train  ( train is an engine pulling cars ..) their #4   to pull a gondola + box car ...  all paper labeled in 1899 .   ( no idea way this is typing blue and underlined) ..       so Lionel wanted a piece of the action ...moving from their 2 7/8" ( trolley type line) to a smaller gauge promoted as 2"  but really 2 1/8" ( to become standard gauge).  Lionel needed a steamer ... so they looked to the competition..C&F..... how do we know that ? well..just look at the earliest  illustration of the  #5 ..is has C&F drivers ....hum. 

For more information about the earliest days of Lionel standard gauge please read Paul Kovacs "White St" book .. recently offered on ebay ..he gives a very detailed look at the struggles of the little company  during the birth of standard gauge .

So below we have a NYC elevated steamer that would have buzzed within feet of Josh and Harry ( Grant)  everyday .

Joe Mania's copy ...of Lionel's prototype ...assumed made for the NYC toy fair spring 1907 to drum up sales for following Christmas season ...original  seen above on the shelves at John's

C&F 's #4 with cars first American electric steam train 1899 -1902 later changed to nickle cab/boiler and painted cars

Lionel's first illustration of their #5   April 1907 ... note C&F drivers ....   steps up front ..( no need for a cow catcher when running on an elevated line)

Cheers Carey

Maybe they were planning to buy the wheel castings from the same supplier C&F was using.  One of those questions I'd love to go back in time and ask.

Nice old stuff. 

The folks at Lionel were trying to work "in house" for the standard gauge line .....  the 2 7/8' line had assorted castings ...  the first standard gauge trolleys  were all "in house " with stamped steel wheels ...( like found on a car) ..problem ..the trolley just spun ..no traction ...so they drilled a hole  in a wheel and filled it with lead ... a bit better but time consuming ...  so they gave in and called the foundry again .....C&F being in Cincinnati would have had it's own foundries ...as trains was but a side line for their real business ...generators, power units, dynamos  etc  .

Attached video of the Lionel #6 ...circa 1911 ...  #6 looks great but slippery on it's drivers compared to the #5 ...

When Lionel introduced the thick rims ....it added some weight / traction .... and the castings would have had a much smaller failure rate compared to the thin rims .  I prefer the light and delicate look of the thin rims ...

Cheers Carey

Carey Williams posted:

Hello Tinplate world

  In the second half of 1907  Lionel began production of their first steam engine ... the little #5 followed shortly by the 6.     The trailer ( freight ) cars are from 1909 ... earlier production would have solid sided 3 rivet trucks  ...I'm still looking for them!

The train is running on 1907-12 Lionel split pin track  ...note skinny ties ...I just set up a test loop on the new layout table ....    using recycled old flooring as a base .. originally this era train ran on the floor ....   don't need no sound dampening!

Lionel continued to manufacture the #5 engine  and 10 series cars for the next 19 years ...with many  changes ( improvements ?) along the way .

Cheers Carey

 

 

 

 

 

Incredible that they still run after all these years. Very nice.

Getting a number 5 in my collection is certainly on my bucket list. Have never seen one for saleyet though.

Frank

Carey,

  Very very nice in deed!

PCRR/Dave

Interesting topic.  Josh Cowan stated that his 2 1/8" track was standard gauge.  Within a few years, as I understand it, the other manufacturers changed their track to match Lionel's.  I've been re-reading Ron Hollander's book and JLC was quite a character.  

pennytrains posted 

Interesting.  The oldest track I have is from 1917(?) and has what look like roofing nails (Sharp!  Roofing nails!  ) with a small dimple (on the end that stays in the rail) for track pins.  Some also have the brass wire connectors.

I think I have some of the “roof nail” track pins in my collection.

Carey-

Amazing stuff! 😮

About the split-pin track: was it just the center rail that had the split pin?

 Thanks for sharing!

Fran McM

Yes just the center rail had the split pins 

Thank you ! 

Fran

Wow fellows, this is a great thread, and it’s hard to believe that Joshua Lionel Cowen had such a grand vision making Model Electric Trains and this unique Steamer. A True Pioneer Of our favorite hobby. Although it’s rather small in structure, it’s huge/big in beginning the adventure of our Love for model railroading. I can appreciate those that collect TinPlate, I prefer the newer command O scale looking toy trains. It’s such a diversified hobby now here in 2020 and one of the best things of all, Lionel Lives and is striving to stay Successful. Their new 2020 feature rich catalog is a treasure trove for us, Model Railroaders.  Thanks for sharing the Past, it leads us to a fun filled future. Happy Railroading. I’m going to share some of Mr. Sherman Leonard’s collection from the Nashville Tennessee area, now relocated to the great state of Alabama. Sherman is 92/93? Another ambassador of this Hobby. Also pictured is Owen Fox and Sherman’s son Wes Leonard.Enjoy

Carey, what voltage and transformer do you use when running the number 5?

                                              Trainfam 

On the really old stuff I use DC .... find a DC lab generator on ebay cheap ...  dial up 12 volts and turn up amps as needed ... the old stuff was designed for DC but runs on AC .. but happier and cooler on DC ....  when I say old stuff   pre 1912

later stuff AC is just fine ...grab a Lionel Z transformer  and you and your trains will be happy for the rest of your life 

cheers carey

DC power supply 

such as

  https://www.ebay.com/itm/GW-In...p;LH_ItemCondition=4

Sherman has quite a collection and has been a T.C.A member for over 40 years. I was re-introduced to toy trains by Sherman and he signed my membership application in 1978. We made a number of toy train trips over the years including many to York. My first trip there was with Sherman and it was the first time the RED HALL was opened. He would always add to his collection wherever we went.  I had the pleasure of building his and Mae's home in Spring Hill. He had a T Rail layout and got me involved with that. Another story about that later maybe).  He also helped (lead me) in my layout. He is and has been a real ambassador for trains. He is now 92 and still sharp and knows his trains.