Lionel’s new milk car review

Gary,  Thank you for making this video and sharing your cars.    John

Good review Gary. With the couplers mounted solidly to the trucks, how do you think these cars would be when coupled together on smaller radius curves - O-54 and O-36?

MELGAR

Time for Kadee couplers.

Nice thorough demonstration Gary.

Same issues with the newer steelsided reefer trucks.

At least the paint colors aren't horrid like they are on the reefers.

Imo. Too much time is being spent on Lion chief whizz bang # whatever and not enough is spend on quality mechanical components.

It's a good thing there's loads of the well made older rolling stock on ebay, for a fraction of the price of new.

What a shame, and you patiently waited 4 +years for delivery.

Looks like alot of effort to get that roof off. Built in magnets for the roof would have been nice.

I ordered one of the METCA special runs, PRR, now I am regretting it. I wonder if its a option to use old milk car trucks on the new cars...

Nice review Gary.  Thorough and complete.  I would not apologize to Lionel for the couplers though.  They need to get that right in the future.  Unfortunately I imagine even if a change is made now it will take time to work through the system.

Let's pull a positive out of this review and push Lionel to go back to the same truck design before the thumb tacks came back.  IMO those, which are on the old cars, had one of the most robust coupler made. 

@MartyE posted:

Let's pull a positive out of this review and push Lionel to go back to the same truck design before the thumb tacks came back.  IMO those, which are on the old cars, had one of the most robust coupler made.

No one will ever know but , I wonder if there was some sort of issue with the tooling of Lionels industry leading trucks and couplers.

Or was this a cost cutting measure.

Do these "new" trucks and couplers resemble something that could have been aquired from another manufacturer like Weaver etc?

I have no regrets purchasing these cars, details and graphics are spot on.  Kadees are not that much of a jump for me but with that said for those who don't convert will be disappointed in their operation.  That was on 0-72 curves.  Can't say what the tighter curves will look like.

They literally reinvented the wheel... TO WHAT PURPOSE?!?  Lionel should ship original trucks to all purchasers.

Jon

I’m by no means an engineer. In the video where the trucks derail on an 072 curve. These are not your standard freight car trucks. The wheelbase between the axles is quite a bit longer. Passenger car like. Most passenger cars seem to have either a coupler that pivots on the truck or body mounted couplers so the truck is free to navigate the curve.
These cars could stand some weight. At least bring them up to the heft of an Atlas with a die cast chassis.

Someone with a 3D printer or good at designing such as Mario. Could probably come up with a replacement for the Lionel coupler shank that you could mount a Kadee to. For those not wanting to body mount them. I switched to them years ago and haven’t looked back. But I realize they are not for everyone and for what your paying. They should run fine out of the box.

I recently purchased 2 older issue Milk Cars pretty cheap. No boxes. The sole purpose was just for the trucks for a couple projects. The price on the secondary market will probably bump up for those looking to upgrade to something built in the early 2000’s.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

They literally reinvented the wheel... TO WHAT PURPOSE?!?  Lionel should ship original trucks to all purchasers.

Jon

I agree 100%.  Lionel had one of the best truck setups about 7 years back the was hard to beat.  I still can't figure out for the life of me why they changed it.  I think if it was cost, most of us would have rather had an increase at least for the scale size cars.

I had no problem navigating O-36, even an O-36 S turn. I don't have two milk cars to couple together though which may be a problem. The couplers on mine perform smoothly so it must be a tolerance/QC issue in the review above. The roof is only difficult to remove the first time. Thought I would add some additional feedback as my experience has been different.

Thanks Gary. Not at all surprising. For us, no Lionel BTO and only buying after reviews say things are good. No “Must haves” any more.

Thanks for the review Gary. My NYC car has most of the wonderful features previously mentioned, couplers don't work, etc. In addition, one door will not close all the way and a few of the hinges were either not completely painted, or have some overspray on them. In addition, one of the grab irons is not pushed into the body, but glued in place. I'm not going to send it back to Charles Ro, I may fix the issues, or, simply leave it as a reminder of why I stopped preordering anything from Lionel! I only bought the NYC car to complete my set I already have. I have at least 10 - 15 more that I've purchased on here, eBay and at shows. I'm sure most here know that the prices of the older cars are well below the new MSRP, like 1/3! I'll wait for one to pop up and grab the trucks off it and turn the body into some sort of MOW shed! I'm with the previous poster as I am now in "wait and see" mode!

After all that waiting...

I noticed the Cloverland Dairy car (2026760) graphics read "NEW ORLEANS, L.A."  I have not previously seen Louisiana abbreviated like Los Angeles.  If you look at a similar HO model, the L's have a a bit of a flourish but they do not have a period between the L and the A.

Wow, disappointing on the couplers. I know from some of the cars I've bought over the years that they are not all created equal, but I've never had issue with any auto-derailing themselves. I know one of the cars(older from 90's) seem to sit slightly lower for the couplers itself. If the track was inclining or declining, this car would have issue.

For these cars not to have a swivel coupler like the old is a step into the mud. I guess they wanted to save money from what they lost for all this time, but that's not the way to do it. Guessing we're going to see more stories about bad derailments coming. ☹️

Thanks for the review Gary.  Great job!

I just received my 2 cars from Metca and have yet to try them.  I have a pile of the older Lionel milk cars and I think they are great!

The non-articulating coupler is a going to be a problem.

On another note, I know it is a cool feature, but I don't see a need for the interior tanks.  They are details that will for the most part, never be seen.  I'd much rather have the graphics on the trucks and properly working trucks.

PGentieu, My Rutland hoppers have a Built date of 1945 rather than 1915. At least the black looks right.

In the mid 2000’s Atlas was cranking out a variety of rolling stock in numerous road names. Lionel and MTH got into the scale end and competition was good. Quality mattered. Now with Atlas slow in bringing out new product and MTH and Weaver no more. I’m afraid along with high prices this is what we are in for. I’m glad for what I bought years ago and am pretty much set as far as rolling stock.

Nice job on the video, especially coordinating your talking points with your son's videography. Was easy to follow and well done.

@RickO posted:

Same issues with the newer steelsided reefer trucks.

At least the paint colors aren't horrid like they are on the reefers.

The 2020 vision reefers?

Thanks everyone, I try.  I'm not always the most articulate speaker.  I enjoy doing it.  More videos to come.

Gary:

     Excellent review of the new vs. older reefers. The Videography was excellent, too!

    It appeared to me when you compared the newer reefers with the 2000 reefers that the 2000 reefer had the good old fast angle wheels, and the new release had flatter, post-war type, wheels. Did you notice any difference in the wheels?

   John

@John Knapp posted:

Gary:

     Excellent review of the new vs. older reefers. The Videography was excellent, too!

    It appeared to me when you compared the newer reefers with the 2000 reefers that the 2000 reefer had the good old fast angle wheels, and the new release had flatter, post-war type, wheels. Did you notice any difference in the wheels?

   John

No but I will check into it.

Gary, don't be hard on yourself for speaking out. Regardless of how you speak, fast, slow, runs, drips, or errors, the main take away is what you showed us. You took the time to illustrate all the issues or pluses you saw, and that's what's important. The derailing bit may have taken a few tries to get it to happen, but it was vital you showed us. It just goes to show that is a huge problem that may have gone overlooked if you didn't point it out. I guess that all these new cars won't work well on anything smaller than O72 as the chance of increased derailment unless changing out trucks and such occur.

Thanks for the review - I really appreciate you taking the time to do that. It's a shame and I have been eyeing anywhere between 4-8 of these based on what I know of the previous versions. Now I will maybe only get 1-2 and just plan to retrofit the old trucks from a donor car or from Lionel, or worse, skip buying them altogether. I really don't feel like I can trust anything Lionel puts out right now, especially without a review or two first. I may revisit some of their products from the past if I need anything else.

Gary Really Nice video. Hats off to your son on the camera work. Excellent! Thank you for taking the time to explain everything.

@KOOLjock1 posted:

They literally reinvented the wheel... TO WHAT PURPOSE?!?  Lionel should ship original trucks to all purchasers.

Jon

New factory, new engineering, old problems come back. Remember the first run of Lionel 2-8-0 locos with Vanderbilt tenders from 20 years ago? It's like they never made a train before.

That's the problem when there are not design engineers dedicated to the product. Everything is built as a brand new one off, rather than the continuation of a long term tradition.

Gary,

For my money, your video and review of these cars was excellent, very informative, and there is no justification for criticism. You told me a lot about these cars that I would not have known until buying one myself. Very interesting and I enjoyed it.

MELGAR

I put a little graphite down in the coupler and along where the spring sits and they seem to close better after working it in. I only ordered the one, but it will be interesting to see what the minimum curve is with two coupled together. Anyone have the ability to try this? It went into and out of an 036 siding I have but the car it was coupled to has an articulated arm. I can try a different fixed arm car later but I’m thinking it will not like it.

@MartyE posted:

I agree 100%.  Lionel had one of the best truck setups about 7 years back the was hard to beat.  I still can't figure out for the life of me why they changed it.  I think if it was cost, most of us would have rather had an increase at least for the scale size cars.

Well said. A number of us have been lobbying for the last few years for Lionel to return to its original die-cast sprung trucks and couplers with hidden uncoupling tabs. While they recently caved in on the hidden uncoupling tabs, the trucks and couplers are still inferior.

I was planning on buying a few of these new milk cars. Based upon Gary's article, there is no way I will now do so.

Pat

@RickO posted:

Nice thorough demonstration Gary.

Same issues with the newer steelsided reefer trucks.

At least the paint colors aren't horrid like they are on the reefers.

Imo. Too much time is being spent on Lion chief whizz bang # whatever and not enough is spend on quality mechanical components.

It's a good thing there's loads of the well made older rolling stock on ebay, for a fraction of the price of new.

What a shame, and you patiently waited 4 +years for delivery.

Rick, or others... when did they start using these couplers precisely do you know?  I have had the same issues with recent freight cars.  Those trucks are terrible.  I will stick to older stock, but wondering if you know when that cutoff would be?

Thanks!

Ben

Also... thanks for that great review!

@banelson posted:

Rick, or others... when did they start using these couplers precisely do you know?  I have had the same issues with recent freight cars.  Those trucks are terrible.  I will stick to older stock, but wondering if you know when that cutoff would be?

Thanks!

Ben

Also... thanks for that great review!

I think roughly after about 2016 for boxcars ,reefers ,etc. The easiest way to spot the crummy trucks on the newer boxcars and reefers is by the thumbtack uncoupling device which is visible in the illustration as well as the actual product.

As Gary mentioned in his video. The new milk cars were just delivered, and were cataloged starting in 2015. Any milk car cataloged prior to 2015 has the good trucks.

Having said that. Lionel had mentioned they were going to get rid of the thumbtacks.  However, after seeing Garys video. I'm skeptical whether we"ll see the older good trucks make a return, or end up with a non articulating coupler and unsprung truck  with a so-so hidden uncoupler like those on the milk cars.

@banelson posted:

Rick, or others... when did they start using these couplers precisely do you know?  I have had the same issues with recent freight cars.  Those trucks are terrible.  I will stick to older stock, but wondering if you know when that cutoff would be?

Thanks!

Ben

Also... thanks for that great review!

You are good through the 2015 catalogs. Lionel started to change the trucks and couplers in 2016 and then made additional changes to them in 2020. Some of the freight cars from the 2016 Signature Edition, like the PS-4 flatcars with the 40' trailers, still had the old trucks and couplers, but some of the other freight cars did not. The new trucks and couplers were on all of the Lionel freight cars by 2017.

The milk cars cataloged in 2015 are an anomaly, in that they were not actually built in 2015, but were made very recently, using the same tooling as those cataloged in the 2020 Big Book. For all intents and purposes, they should be viewed as though they were listed in the 2020 Big Book.   

I recently bought a few of the 50' flatcars with the 20' trailers from the 2020 Big Book. I have not yet put them on the track, and hope that they do not have the same issues as the milk cars, particularly the couplers mounted solidly to the trucks, as they present a high risk of derailments. These are the first Lionel freight cars I have purchased from catalogs after the 2016 Signature Edition.

Pat

Gary, nice review.    Too bad what Lionel did with the couplers, not pivoting independent of the truck. I bought a couple of Menards box cars as a test and they're set up the same way, but i didn't expect a lot for a $20 car.

Tony

Great review, Gary.  Excellent camera work by your boy, too!

After watching your video, I went back through it looking for some visual evidence.  Spotted what I was looking for right at minute mark 4:02.

The new car does not have fast angle wheel sets.  The wheels appear to have maybe a slight taper, if at all.  And take a look at those couplers!  I can see why they don't work worth a hoot - the new profile doesn't match the old one at all!  No wonder they don't want to couple together.  Maybe the new ones will couple okay to themselves, but that sure doesn't do any good if they won't couple to the age-old standards!

Also, since the knuckle is further away from the truck pivot point than most standard freight trucks, and since they're not articulated, I'm pretty sure that these new trucks will not play nice with the freight trucks on smaller radius curves or ess curves.  Derailments will most likely be the norm, and not the exception.

I can usually allow a manufacturer some leeway on new production items and sometimes figure out how the new owner can correct a factory deficiency or two on their own, but these trucks ain't going to cut it.

My opinion: Lionel should offer corrected replacement trucks for owners to swap out, and recall any unsold models and fix them right.  Hate to see this happen, but dang!

Mr Muffin did a nice video review of the cars before his live layout run on Facebook Saturday. If you watch the first segment of the run, things didn’t go so well with the milk train!

So what's the opinion of the cars rolling easily?  Seems we all strive for cars that roll freely but are these too free rolling?