Lionel S2 Turbine Damp vs Dry

I bought mine, pre-ordered, through Tom's Train Station in Cary, NC.  It arrives in perfect condition - dry, no damage to anything.  The manual was perfect and undamaged to, as was the box.

If Lionel really is going to recall all of them it will make those not sent back real collectors items.  Not that I care about the value one way or the other, but in spite of my dissatisfaction with the loco (nothing to do with damp damage, but with the metal coal load, etc.) I plan to keep it regardless.  I see no damage, it runs well, just a rather poor model train compared to others.  But I wanted an S-2 and now I have one. 

I picked up on the first post by Rockey Mountaineer. 

Marty why don't you call Mike who is HERE in NC now, in fact right down the street, and get the real scoop

OK here we go...I just received my new 11416 from Nicholas Smith and it is perfect as it can get I have no way to run it! So one thing the was mentioned here was about the the Styrofoam so here is a photo of the bottom part where the engine & tender sit.

And here are some photos of the bad one.

And next is some photos of the engine & tender.

As you can see the rust on both pieces, who only knows whats underneath the inside of the engine. The rusty screw under the collector on the engine has some kind of black fuse around the screw head.

The only thing that I have a question with is why does Charles Ro still have these engines listed on web site for sale. Just moments ago I could still buy one of these engines from them!

So is this just a question about someone saying that all of these engines are all bad vs. Lionel saying they are all bad? I believe it is just a big rumor started by someone and that it is not coming from Lionel.

So I'm now a very happy owner of a 11416.

Better you than me.  If I took one out of the box and saw that, it would go RIGHT BACK INTO THE BOX and be shipped back!

These photos are of the 1st one from Charles Ro.

Only the very first photo is of the bottom Styrofoam box of the new engine that I received today. As you can see there is almost no impressions or marks that are in the Styrofoam bottom like the noticeable ones that are in the one from the first engine.

The engine that I got today from Nicholas Smith show no signs or marks of water or rust damage on the engine or tender at all. I still had both the 1st & 2nd engines side by side to see any differences in either one.

After I saw your remarks on yours last night I tried to cancel the one that I ordered from Nicholas Smith yesterday and I was fearing of going through another bad engine. I was surprised to get a phone call from them last night and I talked to Joel from NS and he assured me the I would be getting a good engine that had been checked out by them. He told me that they returned about half of all the ones that they received from Lionel and he also told me that some of them were in really bad shape. He also said that if I was not satisfied that I could return it to them.

And now I am very satisfied with the one I got today.

I cannot see how Lionel is letting any of their dealers keep any of these engines if they are all bad. You would think  that all of the dealers would be required to send them all back if that is the case. And also today I went to Charles Ro web site and I could still buy one from them, you would also think that they would have been removed or so that there is no way to order one from them, very strange if you ask me.

Proof we live in an imperfect world.

So the email today from Lionel to the dealers apparently is asking for ALL the units back. The inspection instructions were to look for rust on the rear truck retaining screw and rust and or mold on the two rear grease port screws and also mold on the tether. I guess I got one of the good ones. Nothing that I can see and here are two pictures of the locations to look for issues. I have about 2 hours of run time on mine now it is running strong. Looks awesome next to my 1950 S2, although quite a bit larger! And a quick video of it running. Sorry for the video quality.

I really hope Lionel makes a fresh batch.  I got the first Scale Turbine in 1990 from my parents for Christmas.  It was awesome especially with a large Hudson Pullmor motor.  By 2006 this engine had obtained horrific paint rash.  Hopefully one day I will get one. 

So on the few good ones, are the staples on the owner's manual perfect?  They would definitely be among the first items to rust. And the paper non damp?

Mike, With both of the engines (bad & good) they both have good manuals and no rust on the staples.

Paul,

Glad to hear you're happy with your latest S-2.  From the pictures of the styrofoam that you posted, I'd say my unit falls somewhere in between the two:  definitely not as dirty as the one you received from Ro's batch, but not nearly as clean as the one you received from Nicholas Smith today either.  Add in the fact that my instruction manual clearly had noticeable dampness to it (but no rusty staples), and I'd say my unit would be a potential suspect for internal issues down the road.  But who knows for sure?    

I called Charles Ro customer service today.  And at their request, I contacted Lionel customer service.  Within minutes of my call to Lionel (very polite and professional I might add), I received two emails... one with a return authorization number and another with a UPS call tag.  So I will be getting a full refund directly from Lionel.  Can't say with 100% certainty whether Lionel will evaluate any of the returns for future sale as "refurbished" at one of their warehouse open houses (i.e., if there's no evidence of rust/mold/mildew) or simply destroy everything that is returned.  My guess at this point is they'll do the latter.

I did get the impression that dealers are actively checking their stock for any signs of rust/mold/mildew/dampness, etc... and may still sell "good ones" to consumers -- much like you experienced with Nicholas Smith.  And that's precisely why Ro may still have them listed on their website.  Of course, this could all change if Lionel recommends that dealers now return all stock. 

Current recommendation?  For folks interested in purchasing an S-2, definitely purchase from a Lionel Authorized Dealer so you'll be protected with Lionel's refund.  Sending in a copy of your sales receipt along with the actual S-2 is part of the requirement toward getting the refund.

As I said earlier, I expect a subset of these locomotives will be fine.  And for those who are happy with this version of Lionel's S-2 and can grab a good one, they'll always have quite a story to tell years down the road.  I just don't fancy myself as a "collector" anymore... otherwise I might be tempted to keep the one I received.  But I wasn't too excited about the cast-in coal load on the tender... and as an "operator" I'd rather have locomotives that I really like as part of the roster.

Overall, it's sad that something like this happened.  But I give Lionel LOTS of credit for stepping up to the plate and doing the right thing for the consumer.  I have no hesitation whatsoever ordering Lionel products now or in the future.

David

PRRronbh, I feel badly for the members who purchased the locomotive with damp/mildew boxes.  I guess I was one of the lucky persons that have a good one.  I have not heard any information on how Lionel will take care of the buyers who have problems.  Being a PRR fan, I had hoped Lionel would do the engine again (S-2) with Legacy.  I also have a PRR T-1 on the wish list.  

Ron, I do the Legacy repairs for Charles Ro and have not seen any S-2 locomotives yet with operating issues.  Reading the posts on this subject, I have run my engine for a very long time.  As an MTH guy, I can say this is a very good runner.

I have the 671 road number version.  It came from Dixie Union Station in Mason, Ohio with  no rust.  While the coal load leaves something to be desired, the maroon rather than red oxide tender deck is much more disappointing.  However, it runs extremely well and I am satisfied.

If Lionel does a remake I hope they make some adjustments to the "Builder's Scheme" so that it more closely matches prototype pictures. 

It should look significantly different from all the others.  After all, I have the two previous versions and this would be reason enough to get a third. 

If so, I'm in for one.

For the HECK of it, how much $$$$ more would you be willing to pay for the cost of new tooling, fixtures and labor to get what you want. 

OK, what details are missing?????  I asked this in another thread with so far only one reply.

FYI for anyone looking for the S-2.  I just got off the phone with Charles Ro and he informed me he has many of each number with no damage.  When Charlie first heard of this issue, he opened up every locomotive.  That took several days as you know Charles Ro buys and sells a few trains. 

This information I posted is to guide anyone looking for a good/dry S-2.  As I stated before in this post, the new S-2 is one excellent running locomotive. 

No new tooling.  Just different painting and decoration.  Shouldn't cost but a few bucks more.  But to answer your question, I'd be willing to pony up about $100 more for more accurate "Builders Scheme" decoration.  Flat where it should be flat, shiney were it should be shiney, whitewall drivers, etc.  Is it black, or PRR Green?  You get the point.

Hopefully they will rerun these...as I would prefer one sealed.

Let us see, moving the class lamps from the front of smoke box to upper sides of smoke box would require.

1. NEW boiler dies (very expensive $100/250K)  or and added offline milling operation with fixture tooling cost.

2. New tooling to produce new boiler front.

3. New tooling to produce right class lamp.

4. New tooling to produce left class lamp.

5. Oh and you would probably want the holes that mount the newer steam delivery piping to be plugged.

PRRronbh, the items you mention wouldn't need to be done, at least for me.  I'm interested mainly in what 'jumps out at you'.  The placement of class lamps or the plugging of holes just doesn't mean that much, to me at least.

Distinctive painting, white sidewalls and bearing caps would do it.  Simple things, really.

Others may view things differently, and that's all well and good.  A rivet counter I'm not, but something a bit different is OK, like my tuscan Legacy K4.

I also feel badly for those who have waited for this model and experienced rust/mildew.

My 671 is rust-free and runs really well. No dampness whatsoever. All things considered, she's a keeper!

I guess I am confused now.  Is not what you are looking as Lionel is cataloging the "builder's scheme" with white sidewalls and caps painted?

Ron

<<<

I guess I am confused now.  Is not what you are looking as Lionel is cataloging the "builder's scheme" with white sidewalls and caps painted?

Ron>>>

Yes Ron, but in forum reading a description of what some received, it's different than depicted in the catalog.

Now I understand, Lionel did NOT produce as advertised.  That is a shame since it makes a very nice variation.  But one could be painted to match catalog depiction without too much trouble.

John I thought I saw a post from you stating you had or have the first Lionel versions of the S2, but must be mistaken since I cannot find such post.

Anyway, I recall my local toy train dealer getting and displaying the original 6-18010 made by Mike Wolf for Richard Kughn 91/92 time frame.  I coveted it but just getting back into O-gauge (Williams Crown Edition PRR stuff) could not dream of the $1800 price tag for engine and brass N8 Cabin. 

Since that was over two decades ago cannot recall any details.  So searched the net for pictures and found them.  Low and behold the 6-18010 was fairly exact builder's scheme.  No smoke lifters, slass lamps on side of smokebox, hidden steam supply line, less small piping as appropriate and whitewalls etc. All you would have to do is paint the bearing caps. The last couple I saw on eBay went for less than $400.00.

Here is a pic from related sales ad.

Ron, you weren't dreaming.  Yes, I did post, somewhere, that I have this engine.  Everything you say is so very true.  It would probably make a good "Builders Scheme".  And it does have real coal in the tender.

But one reason to get it would be to run a Legacy steamer with all that Legacy includes.  Modifying the original 18010 would give me one that 'looks' like Baldwin's, but it wouldn't run nor sound like a Lionel Legacy.

Has anyone received their refund from Lionel yet?  

David

FWIW, Harry Henning III apparently found a dry one and will be receiving it soon.  I'm curious to see it in action.

John, they're definitely still available in the marketplace, since many of the dealers who received several of them have examined their stock for visible signs of dampness/rust.  They returned the damaged ones to Lionel (where the S-2's are reportedly being destroyed per Lionel's insurance claims requirements). 

Meanwhile, I guess if dealers found any "dry" ones, they decided to keep them in hopes of selling them.  Doesn't appear that anyone is trying to play foolish pricing games at the moment, so they're still available at "regular price levels" for these types of locomotives... usually around $1170.

I suppose it begs the question, "Will Lionel be stocking any 'spare parts' for these locomotives?", for those folks who do buy one.  For insurance reasons, I heard Lionel was destroying those returned -- not even breaking them down for parts. 

Aside from Lionel offering the refund to consumers who called in and returned them, I haven't seen any official public statement from Lionel regarding what happened with this production run. 

David

Hey, Guys

I have a DRY One.

ZOOM	$1,249.95	Pennsylvania LEGACY S-2 Turbine Steam Locomotive #671 http://www.patstrains.com/View...Details=View+Details	Stock Number: 6-11432 Gauge: O/O-27 Gauge Manufacturer: Lionel Product Type: Locomotives Availability: In Stock

Thanks

Pat

www.patstrains.com

Hey, Guys

I have a DRY One.

ZOOM	$1,249.95	Pennsylvania LEGACY S-2 Turbine Steam Locomotive #671 http://www.patstrains.com/View...Details=View+Details	Stock Number: 6-11432 Gauge: O/O-27 Gauge Manufacturer: Lionel Product Type: Locomotives Availability: In Stock

Thanks

Pat

www.patstrains.com

 

So are you going to back it 100% if it goes south later?

An official announcement from Lionel would be nice as to if they are going to recall them all, or even stand behind them if they are returned for service

This thread reminds me of the Johnny Carson soap opera spoof "The Edge of Wetness".

<<<My wife woke me up this afternoon and let me know that a couple of boxes came for me. When got up and went into my living room was this giant sized box that weighted a ton. As I opened it I was blown away to find out that the FFAR #5 S-2 was a scale sized engine from 1983-84, that's from 30 years ago. A whole lot of engine for $200 does anyone know how this engine ran?>>>

Paul, the Lionel FARR #5 S-2, 8404, is traditionally sized.  That is, the same size as the Postwar 671/681/682/2020.  It came out in '84-85.

It incorporates all the features of the 682 and then some.  It has white sidewall drivers, backup light, graphite painted boiler highlights, Brunswick Green Paint, 6-wheeled tender, plus other highlights.

A close tolerance Pulmore motor powers it and it runs very well.

The first Lionel scale Turbine was 18010 and it was catalogued in '91.  Compared to the traditional sized units it is huge.  The tender alone is longer than a 671 engine.  Pictures of the 18010 are posted above on page 2.

I have samples of all of Lionel's Turbines but opted out of the latest scale versions.

My 38028 with 'Elephant Ears' and Odysey, from '01, runs and sounds great.  I couldn't justify $1000+ just to get Legacy.

John, I stand corrected I just looked at the box and it is the 18010. So I guess I made out in the deal because he had it listed wrong. Here is what the listing that I won.

E-bay listing 8404