I have a Lionel Shay #18023 that I would like to upgrade to command control, preferably Legacy with chuffing smoke. The engine has a can motor without a flywheel. While I have done many MTH PS2/3 upgrades, upgrading to Legacy is new for me. Experienced guidance is most welcome!
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Not a lot of room in these. If I were doing this I would use the parts that Lionel used in their Legacy version. RCMC and encoder without a flywheel on the motor. Puffing smoke is nice but on a shay any speed above about 2 mph is basically a steady stream.
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...EGACY-3-Truck-Shay-6
Pete
Great point about the chuffing smoke.
Looking at the parts diagram, a conversation would run around $350, assuming remotoring and no speaker upgrade. Do the Electric RR components perform the same function?
You could use the BEMC board, that doesn't require a flywheel.
Truthfully, by the time you buy all the parts and add in the labor, you might be better off selling the existing locomotive and looking for a deal on a command control model.
I've done a few Legacy upgrades, but you have to keep in mind that it's all "roll your own" as far as the wiring, there are no "kits". Bruk's Legacy documents are very handy for working with Legacy, but you're still building all your own wiring. I'm about to tackle a pair of Lionel Centipedes for a full Legacy upgrade, that should be entertaining!
I have the TMCC version that I upgraded with ERR cruise that I'm going to sell. I considered adding the Super-Chuffer, but as Pete says, there wouldn't be much difference from steady smoke, so I opted to not bother.
@ScottM posted:Great point about the chuffing smoke.
Looking at the parts diagram, a conversation would run around $350, assuming remotoring and no speaker upgrade. Do the Electric RR components perform the same function?
ERR would require something to trigger puffing smoke. Given no flywheel Johns chuff generator is out. Do you get chuffing sound now? If so there must be a chuff switch somewhere. If not it would be difficult to add.
I would also suggest a swap with a Legacy engine as the easier route.
Pete
@Norton posted:ERR would require something to trigger puffing smoke. Given no flywheel Johns chuff generator is out. Do you get chuffing sound now? If so there must be a chuff switch somewhere. If not it would be difficult to add.
I would also suggest a swap with a Legacy engine as the easier route.
Pete
This specific version used an optical detector and interrupter flag wheel on the tender axle. In the past I upgraded one of these to newer Railsounds reusing that optical sensor. It was a bit of research to figure out the exact part number of the optical assembly, figure out how to power the LED side of it, and then also connect the photo detector to the chuff input of Railsounds lite. Railsounds lite provides regulated voltage and can drive hall effect or optical sensors like this.
Sadly, I would have to reach out to the customer who bought it and reverse engineer the details of that wiring, I failed to document it at the time.
https://www.lionelsupport.com/...231-8023Complete.pdf
Again, I do understand why the OP might want to upgrade, this early sound board is not the best there ever was. That said, it is a lot of work to upgrade and the cost is not cheap.
Interesting about the optical chuff switch. My only experience with one of these was with the TMCC version. The attempt to replace the DCDR with a Cruise M went nowhere as there was not even the extra 1/16” to fit it.
Lots of videos of the Cass shays out there if you want to hear the chuffs and see the smoke.
Pete
@Norton posted:Interesting about the optical chuff switch. My only experience with one of these was with the TMCC version. The attempt to replace the DCDR with a Cruise M went nowhere as there was not even the extra 1/16” to fit it.
Pete, I spent hours getting the CC-M into the one I have, what a giant PITA! That's a big part of the reason I never bothered with the chuffing smoke. After the ordeal I was burned out cramming the CC-M in and routing all the wiring. I modified the heatsink to reposition the CC-M and I also took a little material off the shell as well to make it fit. I will say that I'm very pleased with the performance with the CC-M, it did cry out for cruise. 
On a real shay the gear ratio at the wheels is just over 10 to 1 and it has three cylinders. The chuff rate should be about 30 chuffs per wheel revolution. It sounds more like a roar than a chuff.
Thank you all for the feedback.
There is chuffing, but it's Railsounds, which is more like static, and there is a seuthe smoke unit. My records indicate it cost $1500 when purchased, which makes selling it tough. GRJ - you mentioned a BEMC board, I looked at the ERR site and did not see one listed.
@ScottM posted:Thank you all for the feedback.
There is chuffing, but it's Railsounds, which is more like static, and there is a seuthe smoke unit. My records indicate it cost $1500 when purchased, which makes selling it tough. GRJ - you mentioned a BEMC board, I looked at the ERR site and did not see one listed.
BEMC is an OEM Lionel Legacy board, NOT ERR.
You asked for Legacy, you should research this document and know what Lionel has and uses.
"bemc-and-rcdr-un-offical-wiring-guide"
There were a lot of complaints on the Forum about Legacy switchers that relied on Back-EMF. Lionel didn't repeat that approach, and somehow figured out how to use a tach sensor on their next run. So if you don't a flywheel or tach, I wouldn't use Legacy. Try to fit the Cruise Commander.
@Vernon Barry posted:BEMC is an OEM Lionel Legacy board, NOT ERR.
You asked for Legacy, you should research this document and know what Lionel has and uses.
"bemc-and-rcdr-un-offical-wiring-guide"
Thank you! I was not paying attention to Lionel upgrades when this written so I have much to learn! Upgrading the Shay has been a back burner project, as have my other Lionel steam engines from the '90s. They are very nice engines but I am addicted to command control. My interest came to the forefront when I read some of the other posts describing boards being no longer available. As previously mentioned, my focus has been MTH premier steam upgrades, not Lionel. This opens a whole new front, I just hope I'm not too late to the party.
@Ted S posted:There were a lot of complaints on the Forum about Legacy switchers that relied on Back-EMF. Lionel didn't repeat that approach, and somehow figured out how to use a tach sensor on their next run. So if you don't a flywheel or tach, I wouldn't use Legacy. Try to fit the Cruise Commander.
The complaints were mostly about speed matching with other Legacy locomotives, something that's not likely to be an issue with the Shay. The back-EMF BEMC works really well with Legacy. The Cruise Commander uses the exact same technology as the BEMC, and was indeed designed by the same guy!
@ScottM posted:Thank you! I was not paying attention to Lionel upgrades when this written so I have much to learn! Upgrading the Shay has been a back burner project, as have my other Lionel steam engines from the '90s. They are very nice engines but I am addicted to command control. My interest came to the forefront when I read some of the other posts describing boards being no longer available. As previously mentioned, my focus has been MTH premier steam upgrades, not Lionel. This opens a whole new front, I just hope I'm not too late to the party.
My recommendation is to cut your losses and look for a really nice Legacy Shay on the used market and sell the one you have. They come along at times for decent prices. A few years back, I bought this 2-truck Legacy Shay for $300 on eBay. The seller mentioned an issue with smoke. However, when I got it, smoke worked fine, it just had a minor problem with the headlight. I fixed that and it a perfect runner! Even if I had to fix the smoke it would have been a good deal!
300 for a Legacy Shay is a deal. I found a TMCC three truck Shay plus three logging cars for $400. A TMCC one would also be fine. They are geared so low you really don’t need cruise.
Pete
Pete, I was pretty floored when I saw the Legacy Shay for $300, and surprisingly, nobody else bid on it, I was the only bidder and it sold for the starting price. Once in a while stuff like that happens on eBay, but not often.
To me the Cruise in the Shay was worth it, and since I already had it open, I was determined not to have totally wasted the time! 
I had bought that shay at York for a friend who had been looking for one for a while.
I was going to surprise him with Cruise, he didn’t request it.
If it was mine I may have modified it to fit the cruise board but I didn’t want to take the chance of wrecking it.
Pete
Well, if I thought I'd wreck it with the install, I'd have abandoned the cruise install. 
It was just a lot more work than I imagined when I started.
@ScottM there were a lot of complaints about the "tach-less" version of Legacy used in the 0-8-0 switchers circa 2017. It wasn't just the inability to double-head with other locos. Apparently they accelerated fast, and one purchaser stated that it didn't even run as well as his Odyssey 0-8-0 from the early 2000s. Don't take my word for it, search the Forum.
I agree that the best scenario would be to trade up to the Legacy version.
So, my other Shay is a MTH WVP&P converted to PS2. I also have a MTH Hill Crest Climax. Looks like I need a 3 truck MTH Shay for some easy triple heading! I will have to modify a different Lionel to learn the process.
Well, the Shay isn't one I'd start on, they're a PITA to work on.
Hello @ScottM,
It was great meeting you today at the BSA event. So what did you finally end up doing with your shay?
Shoot me an email and we can get together and I can also introduce you to the Detroit 3 Railers one Friday evening.
@Ted S posted:@ScottM there were a lot of complaints about the "tach-less" version of Legacy used in the 0-8-0 switchers circa 2017. It wasn't just the inability to double-head with other locos. Apparently they accelerated fast, and one purchaser stated that it didn't even run as well as his Odyssey 0-8-0 from the early 2000s. Don't take my word for it, search the Forum.
I agree that the best scenario would be to trade up to the Legacy version.
Here's a contrast of the RCMC and BEMC legacy boards throttle performance. You be the judge.
This is a test from speed step 1 to speed step 11 in Legacy mode for the two boards. Looking at the flywheel stripes, it's clear that the BEMC has much poorer low speed performance, and of course, would never MU with the RCMC equipped models.
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