Lionel terminology for Heavyweight passenger cars?

Madison was one of the towns in NJ near their plant. Others were Irvington, Hillside, Maplewood, Summit, Clifton, Newark, Elizabeth, and maybe others. Madison was one on the heavyweight series...and the name stuck.

Phenolic is a type of resin. Google for details.

Madison refers to the name given to one of these cars,2627, when they debuted in 1946. See http://www.tandem-associates.c...nelcarpass.htm#HEAVY for more information about the postwar cars. Other names used were Irvington and Manhattan. Sager Place was a planned observation, not made until 1991, and again as an add-on for the 726 Berkshire passenger set reissue.

Phenolic refers to the type of plastic originally used to make the cars during the 1940s. It is bakelite, a brittle type of plastic popular during that time. 

Hope this helps.

Amazing how "terms" or phrases become stuck and even accepted.  That name, "Madison" as an almost universal description of older style, heavyweight passenger cars, has always amazed me.  Only  one of three original cars in 1941 had that name but railfans to this very day still use that term to refer to this style of car, no matter what railroad, what car type (coach, combine, Pullman or parlor; even a baggage car) it always seems to be called a "Madison". 

It's kind of like "lash-up" as a reference to running two diesel engines together, instead of calling it "M.U." operation.

Paul Fischer

I NEVER heard of heavyweights being referred to as "Madison" cars in any model railroad, real railroad or preservation environment until I started hanging out in the 3-rail world.

And I still call them heavyweights.

Rusty

Actually, NOT "rail fans" but ONLY 3-Rail "toy Train" folks. I have never heard a "railfan", nor an HO/O Scale modelers refer to heavyweight passenger cars as "Madison Cars". It is pretty much only associated with the 3-Rail world.

I don't think the term "Madison" caught on until the Williams Reproductions started referring to their set versions as "Madison Cars".  The original Lionel cars were lettered as  "Irvington" and they were just marketed as passenger cars in 1946.  They added additional names to the cars as time went by.  I don't think "Madison" even appeared till 1948?

On the other side of the coin, the postwar American Flyer passinger cars were based on a New Haven RR 1935 design. In time, people referred to the actual New Haven cars as "American Flyer cars". For details see "More Classic Trains", Dubin, page 130.

It is amazing how the name came about and stuck, but regardless, I seem to have too many of them.

I guess it comes down to "what's in a name"? Heavyweights, Madisons, I think we all get the idea.

I believe Pullman started heavyweights with riveted steel construction, concrete floors and six wheeled trucks compared to wooden cars with 2 or 4 wheeled trucks in the early 1900's.

Nicer ride.

As Chuck mentioned, the use of the term "Madison" to refer to Lionel heavyweights didn't happen until after the war.

None of the prewar cars were lettered "Madison". They were referred to as "Irvington" cars in prewar days. Some uncataloged cars were lettered "Manhattan".

Another fact sometimes overlooked is that the phenolic heavyweights weren't produced until 1941-42. There were none back in 1937 when the 700E Hudson was produced.

Tinplate Rail Chief cars (a streamline type) were cataloged with the scale Hudson.

Another "Madison" car oddity - how come the lettering for Madison was in serif-style lettering, but the Irvington and Manhattan were always sans-serif???

Jim

But, why wasn't the stamp for the new car made to match the existing lettering?  One more of those many questions about the postwar days that will probably never be answered.

Jim

Pretty much the term Madison cars has been part of Lionel's modern era, since Lionel collectors call the prewar semi-scale heavyweights Manhattan cars, and the postwar ones Irvington cars. Ever since Williams Reproductions began calling them Madison cars, the name stuck - the 1991 reissues were referred to as Madison cars in their catalogs. MTH even uses the term for its RailKing cars.

I doubt anyone was using the term "heavy weight" until there were light weight cars. The cars we refer to as heavy weight cars were just steel passenger cars with six wheel trucks. 

But, why wasn't the stamp for the new car made to match the existing lettering?  One more of those many questions about the postwar days that will probably never be answered.

 Yep, that sums it up.

We must also remember that Carl & Lou used to play off the "Madison" car name, claiming that the cars were named after their hardware store.  It was they, I believe, who, long before Williams got into the train business, referred to the original 26xx series cars in their flyers as "Madison."

"I hate all trains...all ages and all gauges."  Lou Shur.

Lionel themselves referred to this product as "Irvington" and "Manhattan" cars . Although there is a Madison NJ, there was also a Madison Hardware. Considering that the never produced in the postwar era observation car was intended to be named Sager Place which was the address of the Lionel plant , it seems that Lionel was chosing names for these cars for places that were important to Lionel at that time. Thinking along those lines, I have wondered if Lionel's thinking in choosing the Madison name for the car was to recognize Madison Hardware as an important part of Lionels business at that time.

When the cars were no longer made collectors began to call them Madison cars and that term seems to have become somewhat universal to refer to that style of passenger car by collectors and hobbyists.

Actually, it was said that the Madison name came from the avenue on which Joshua Lionel Cowen was born in.

Larry Neal gave a very accurate account of the history and referenced it. Please, lets not get it twisted. Also the old Madison Hardware ads found in Model Railroading, Toy Trains and Model Builder always advertised them as Pullmans

These cars were first produced in 1941. Numbered 2623, first releases were named Irvington and some were released with the name Manhattan. These cars were a slightly different color and had sheet metal truck sides There was no Madison car at the time . At this time, Lionel referred to these cars as Irvington cars.

The use of the term Madison to reference these cars is something that came about after the cars were no longer produced by Lionel. It was a generally used term by collectors in the early 1970's after the original Lionel corp and the start of the MPC era.

Lionel's book "Model Railroading" was issued and reissued for about a decade 1950 and on. In Lionel's book the cars are referred to as "deluxe 6 wheel pullmans." An original box flap reads: "O Gauge Pullman Car" I have read postings on line over the years giving the credit for the name "Madison Cars" to Williams, Touy and McComas, and / or MTH. Old timers I had met before the internet called them "Irvington Cars."

Re phenolic...

My understanding is that it was an early generation plastic for mass production.  Commonly called 'bakelite', it is a thermoset type of plastic.  That is to say, heat is required for it to become hard and retain its shape.  It does, indeed, result in a brittle product, though...testiment to the broken and chipped products using this material.

It was replaced by the more commonplace generations of materials, known generically as thermoplastics, in use to this day.  Thermoplastics require heat (melting) in order to flow into the die under pressure, but do not harden completely until they cool.

Looking at it another way....recycling...thermosets are all done once they've been processed into a die.  Bad part?...to the dumpster.  Thermoplastics can be re-heated and re-used.  Bad part?...grind it up into small pellets (as originally provided by the industry), re-heat it, and shoot it into your mold, etc.. 

And, depending on the type of thermoplastic, VERY sturdy to abuse in comparison to the thermosets. 

There's a lot more to the comparisons....but that's the general idea.

FWIW...always.

KD