Lionel Trains versus MTH Trains?

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

Well, I did emphasize the steam sounds as being more of a standout.  Since I seldom use the crew talk except to entertain visitors, I am more tuned into the whistle, bell, and the chuff for steam.  For most steam, the MTH sounds don't come close to some of the better sounds with Legacy steam.

I had the MTH 2017 Premier Big Boy, not a cheap engine.  The sounds of the Lionel Vision Line Big Boy put that to shame.  The MTH whistle sounded like a wounded cow, and certainly nothing like a steam whistle!  The Legacy whistle, OTOH, sounds so realistic you think you're there.

Just a thought...

Both companies had a sound expert.  Both of them moved on a few years ago.  I have no idea who is the sound expert at either place.  What you hear is what you get.

Lou N

@Lou N posted:

Just a thought...

Both companies had a sound expert.  Both of them moved on a few years ago.  I have no idea who is the sound expert at either place.  What you hear is what you get.

Lou N

That is true, and some issues have arisen with Lionel sounds since that happened.  However, my comment still applies, most of the Lionel steam has much better sounds than comparable MTH steam of similar vintage.  One of doubtless several reasons can be easily spotted, most Lionel steam has a good speaker enclosure in the tender, and very few MTH steamers bother with anything but a bare speaker.

I like Lionel twist off truck that the majority of diesel locomotives have.  Makes for very easy lubrication and maintenance. Furthermore, the lateral forces on the motor are greatly reduced, so the motor oilite bushings do not oval out.

My previous attempt at humor aside, in my dateless past (during my 3-rail experimentation layout) I had both: Lionel and MTH.

I didn't really having a preference between MTH and Lionel, it was more of "which one offered what I wanted" thing. Seeing as I did not have command control, "which system" wasn't an issue.

What I remember about my MTH Rail King engines:

* Solidly built.

* Ran slower/smoother than my Postwar stuff.

* HATED the battery needed for PS1.

What I remember about my "modern" Lionel:

* The can-motor powered steam loco I had was a jack rabbit starter with the PW ZW I was using. Ran smooth and steady once rolling, though.

* I thought the "Pulmor's" in newer releases a bit off-putting on account of their tendency to slow in curves. (Remember, I'm talking circa 2000-2002 here AND I was using a PW ZW.)

* Didn't care for the need for a battery in the Lionel sound system at the time.

What I remember about my Lionel Postwar:

* LOVED the smell when running them.

* Loved their history and construction. (Talking stuff from the early 1950s, here.)

* Was "okay" with the later 50s  "cheapened" stuff, but the earlier stuff was more fun for me.

Currently:

* I still have a handful of PW Lionel , including two steam engines, and an A-A set of cast frame FA's. I really enjoy them during the Christmases they have ran.

* IF I were to re-enter 3-rail, I would like do so using traditional-sized 3-rail engines/equipment running among a "sincere" scenic effort, and emphasize the fun and simplicity from that era and not wring my hands over the the downsides of 3-rail.

So there you have it: Input that is more serious and on-topic!

Andre

IDK jack about anything on this topic, but one thing is that MTH forced Lionel to work on going to scale. Aside from that, I would ask if the locomotives, particularly steam would vary per manufacturers? I know Lionel has been criticized for certain runs because the steam engines have been identical other than paint scheme when there should have been differences. Did MTH make the changes to the engines so they weren't identical?

What I'm talking about is something like some of the notable engines like one of the Southern's engines. I think that placement of headlight wasn't right as well as the right tender to it on the Lionel model. I can't think of what engine it was, but that is what I mean.

@B rad posted:

I really like the Imperial Railking line. You get more bang for your buck than LC+ 2.0. However, I have numerous of Lionel and MTH and like them all. Figured I would chime in before this topic gets closed.

I am not familiar with the Railking "Imperial" line.  I looked at some of the pictures though, but I don't see a difference in the pictures from the non-imperial ones.  Are you talking about the diesels?

Can someone explain what is different about them?

Thanks,

John

@Craftech posted:

I am not familiar with the Railking "Imperial" line.  I looked at some of the pictures though, but I don't see a difference in the pictures from the non-imperial ones.  Are you talking about the diesels?

Can someone explain what is different about them?

Thanks,

John

It’s a regular Railking that gets lock washers!…🤣🤣🤣🤣….kidding,…

Imperials have a higher level of detail that the “normal” Railking line ….things like tender truck safety chains, more ornate parts, like the bell, & separately applied details, darkened rods, & satin nickel rods on some applications, ……think of an Imperial like the Cadillac of Railkings ….

Pat

@harmonyards posted:

It’s a regular Railking that gets lock washers!…🤣🤣🤣🤣….kidding,…

Imperials have a higher level of detail that the “normal” Railking line ….things like tender truck safety chains, more ornate parts, like the bell, & separately applied details, darkened rods, & satin nickel rods on some applications, ……think of an Imperial like the Cadillac of Railkings ….

Pat

Thanks Pat.

I assume that's for both steam and diesel.

John

@Craftech posted:

Thanks Pat.

I assume that's for both steam and diesel.

John

Yes

Pat

I was a young kid in the 1970s and what I remember of Lionel from back then was Johnny Cash flogging Lionel train sets on TV at Christmas time that had really cheap and chintzy looking rolling stock, silly motorized accessories, and 2-4-2 steam engines that looked nothing like the real things.  Even back then, I knew I wanted my models to be models and not just toys, and Lionel was such a disappointment in that regard that if I hadn't found some durable HO Mantua/Tyco equipment for a couple bucks that was much closer to prototype at a neighbor's garage sale, I probably never would have gotten into model railroading.

I gave up HO by high school because of other interests, but about 20 years ago I got into N scale.  Flash forward to about 18 months ago, and I was looking to see if there were any models of a Wabash Class P1 4-6-4 Hudson.  There was a 1970s brass one in HO that was very hard to find and very expensive, there were secondhand Lionel ones that were just a Wabash paint job on a completely wrong locomotive that was also expensive (and the passenger cars that went with it had really lame looking passenger silhouettes painted on the windows, to boot!), and then there was the MTH one which looked almost exactly like the prototype and were being sold secondhand for only around $200-$250.

Going with MTH was a complete no-brainer, and as I have gotten more into in O gauge railroading since then and grown my collection, MTH's strong fidelity to actual locomotive prototypes, its Railking Line which runs in the space I have, its high overall quality, and its good value for money have made me a devotee.  I've regularly looked at Lionel stuff and its high end products look amazing.  However, I don't have the money or space for it, and secondhand prices for even Lionel's low end products are still more expensive than MTH - and IMHO it doesn't look as good, either.  Also, MTH's "traditional" sized engines and stock are way more consistent in size than Lionel's, which seems like they are all over the place.  The only minor downside with MTH PS1 and PS2 engines is having to buy and install a BCR in each of them so that I don't have to worry about a drained battery messing up their boards.

Aside from a single Williams caboose, all of my locomotives and stock are MTH.  In fact all my power, controls, and track is MTH, too - the MTH solid rail Real Trax track was noticeably quieter than Lionel's Fast-Track when I tested them for comparison.  I have had very few problems with any of my MTH products, of which I now have quite a few.  It all looks good, is durable, runs great, and at least in my personal experience, seems less expensive than Lionel.   Just my two cents.

Matt

I have a maybe a unique approach……Lionel or MTH, hmmmmmm….…I limit myself to my big five: NYC, NH, PC, NYO&W & Conrail. I buy what I like, whoever makes it, and then, hope it works……

Peter

After being away from the hobby for almost four decades, I resumed O gauge model railroading in 1997 by attending a train show and buying an MTH Premier New York Central Hudson locomotive with PS1 for about $900. I thought I was unwise to spend that much money on it. Shortly thereafter, I bought an MTH Premier PRR GG1 and began building a layout. At that time, MTH was introducing new scale-sized Premier models with every catalog and I continued to buy them.

Lionel then delivered a scale sized model of a B&O 2-6-6-6 Allegheny locomotive. I bought one and was disappointed when I got it home and looked it over. The detail was like a Railking model. When I put it on the layout, it ran poorly, so I returned it for a refund less a restocking fee. That experience soured me on Lionel and I didn’t buy its products for nearly 20 years. I’ve also bought, and like, models by Atlas O, Weaver, K-Line, and Sunset, but MTH has been my favorite and remains so, based on quality, durability, price, and the many prototypes they have produced. Over the years, I’ve had very few problems with MTH locomotives. I’ve kept whatever I bought and still run some PS1 locomotives.

In recent years, with the downsizing of MTH, I’ve bought some Lionel Legacy models including a Boston & Albany 4-6-6T tank engine, a Mogul, several Ten-Wheelers, a Camelback, and several USRA 0-8-0 switchers with TMCC, but I don’t find them to be as durable or well made as MTH, although they look quite nice. Nonetheless, when Lionel offers a Legacy model in my price range with the livery of one of my railroads (New Haven, Boston & Albany, New York Central, Boston & Maine, and Long Island), I will be a buyer.

One pet peeve that I have about Lionel is that they have eliminated the volume control knob for adjustment of sound loudness under conventional control, so the steam sounds on my Legacy models such as Ten-Wheelers are anemic. Considering the price of Legacy engines, in my opinion, there should be a sound adjustment knob for those of us who run conventionally. Even MTH Railking models still have a knob to make the sounds louder.

MELGAR

As predicted, one hears from folks with particular preferences, and thankfully, the results have been civil and largely factual.

The reality is that Lionel is currently the only company keeping the hobby alive, with obvious minor contributions from Menards, MTH, etc. who are doing their own thing.

But reality testing is that the only sets and innovation are coming from Lionel.  Train sets are the heart of recruiting new hobbyists.  So whatever our individual preferences, the reality is the only game in town for the future is probably Lionel.

And as further evidence of the centrality of Lionel to hobby, ask yourself, where are the 7,000 member MTH or Menards or K-Line Collectors Associations? As compared with the LCCA, of course, they don't exist.  So whatever importance other players have had in the history and future of three rail O gauge, Lionel is the main story for most people, and is the only likely future for the coming decades.

If I live to be 100, I expect that MTH and Menards, 3rd Rail and RMT will no longer be making trains. I think there is a good chance that Lionel will still be doing so.  Not trying to change anyone's mind or rain on anyone's parade, just some bigger picture type thoughts .

@Landsteiner posted:

If I live to be 100, I expect that MTH and Menards, 3rd Rail and RMT will no longer be making trains. I think there is a good chance that Lionel will still be doing so.  Not trying to change anyone's mind or rain on anyone's parade, just some bigger picture type thoughts .

No doubt that Lionel is the big dog, but I'm certainly hoping that the other makers continue to make O-scale stuff to keep Lionel somewhat honest.  As long as Lionel rolling stock like boxcars and tank cars are knocking on the door to $100/ea, there will always be room for a maker well below that level if they make a decent quality product.

You can stop by the Henning's Trains booth in York this fall and see the RMT true scale product line, at an MSRP of $35, and a street price of around $30, they should be a worthwhile competitor to the big dog.

While you're likely correct that it may not be the aforementioned makers in the peanut gallery, I suspect there will be someone that sees an opportunity to slip in under the big Lionel tent and make some competing products.   Personally, if I live to be 100, I'll consider I've had a good run and leave it at that.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

That is true, and some issues have arisen with Lionel sounds since that happened.  However, my comment still applies, most of the Lionel steam has much better sounds than comparable MTH steam of similar vintage.  One of doubtless several reasons can be easily spotted, most Lionel steam has a good speaker enclosure in the tender, and very few MTH steamers bother with anything but a bare speaker.

Point noted, John.

Some speaker comments...

In the 90's, QSI built an A frame to hold 2 speakers which, I believe, they patented.  I have never seen one on any of the PS1 and aftermarket locos I have opened.

About that time the HO guys were getting sounds and used product from Knowles Electronics UK, makers of hearing aid microphones and speakers.  They made magnetic speakers, not dynamic.

More recently Tang-band and sugar cube speakers have shown up. 

Williams and RoW both used cups to create acoustic suspension.

So with all that in mind, something besides a bare speaker could be done.

Lou N

@Lou N posted:

So with all that in mind, something besides a bare speaker could be done.

Exactly, it's always been a mystery why MTH steam didn't incorporate this cheap and effective sound improvement!

For what it's worth, I was more interested in fidelity to prototype. Thus, I tended towards MTH, i.e. 4 chuffs per revolution on steam locomotives, with more of a "correct" whistle. Those few Lionel large steam locomotive models I actually "had to have", were promptly sent out to be corrected to 4-chuffs per revolution, and have a correct whistle.

I grew up with lionel and never thought I’d switch to anything else, but I ended up picking up a used PS 1 greenbrier and I have been all MTH since. I have close to 100 engines and I finally just recently lost my first board to being replaced so I’ve been a fan of the reliability. Also hands down my favorite feature are MTH smoke units. Their smoke units are hands down the best in O scale industry.

@Hot Water posted:

For what it's worth, I was more interested in fidelity to prototype. Thus, I tended towards MTH, i.e. 4 chuffs per revolution on steam locomotives, with more of a "correct" whistle. Those few Lionel large steam locomotive models I actually "had to have", were promptly sent out to be corrected to 4-chuffs per revolution, and have a correct whistle.

That was what I sort of was asking above, that is I know that certain engines have been made by Lionel and things have been incorrect like the headlight is not where it should be, whistle ins't in the right place, complete different tender(I was sort of asking about a Southern engine Lionel produced in the last 5-6 years I think). I went to ask if MTH had changed the model(s) to look like the prototype. Pilot changed for this #### engine, this one had that, had bell and whistle, etc., etc. Of course what you have cited is also important, it isn't the engine if it doesn't have the right amount of chuffs nor the correct whistle.

Wow. 3 days and still going. Very good, were learning how to play nicely.  Lol.

I by the way buy what i like. I feel the older lionels have the better sounds and as far as reliability both have had their qc issues.  Cab 1 was completely bullet proof, I've had it since it first came out and never had even a small glitch with base or remote.  DCS I've had small problems like wheel going bad and terminals on tiu getting lose otherwise all is well.

We sure are aren't we?  I haven't been hit by a spitball yet!

Wonders never cease...

@IRON HORSE posted:

I am curious to know what OGRR forum members think about Lionel versus MTH.  Which one has: 1.  The best consistent quality engines?  2.  Consistent quality cars?  3.  The best engines, cars or accessory designs than the other?  4.  The best value for the money? The best command system?

Full disclosure:  I like MTH better but that's because I picked sides a long time ago.  I recently purchased a Lionel box car and I am frustrated because it cost over $75 and it has diecast metal trucks but they are not SPRUNG.  This has always been an issue for me with Lionel, Kline and Weaver: you always have to try to figure out if they come with diecast metal sprung trucks or not. What I have always loved about MTH is both Railking and Premier come standard with diecast metal sprung trucks, except for specialty cars like cabooses.  In other words, MTH has always hit that sweet spot in terms of minimum quality standards and that's why my collection consists heavily of both Railking and Premier products.

I also know that Lionel engines have some pretty cool sound systems and some really cool accessories, and they continue to innovate so I recognize they are a great company and offer an amazing line of products.  So what do you think?

I would like to start off by saying I started off with Lionel as a kid when MTH came on the scene with Proto one I thought that was the coolest thing on the planet. I think they make quality products and each have their own niche. I find Lionel tends to be more sophisticated MTH simpler and this is just in overall options that each unit operates under, nobody in my opinion has ever come close to beating Lionel with our subway cars and operating doors and details interiors. That said MTH tends to be more repairable than Lionel . Lionel tends to obsolete things quicker than MTH. I think the worst day for this Hobby was when K Line was purchased by Lionel. They were a thorn in Lionel’s side. In remote control I think Lionel has them beat hands-down only because it’s one wire the signal goes everywhere. There’s never engine not found. Wire a you layout in a specific way put a lightbulb here it tends to be much simpler and much more trouble free. In  the end it is so good to see Menards come on the scene and start shaking things up. That’s what we need in this Hobby more competition not less let’s keep the big gorilla in line.  

[quote]Which one has: 1.  The best consistent quality engines?  2.  Consistent quality cars?  3.  The best engines, cars or accessory designs than the other?  4.  The best value for the money? The best command system?[/quote]

1. I'm not sure I can answer that.  As I run command only (TMCC), I've not owned an MTH locomotive since 2006.  I have to say that by and large, the majority of MTH engines are drop-dead gorgeous and run beautifully in conventional mode.  The only "new" engines I have are the Lionel PRR E-7s.  I love them.  They are very smooth runners and look good doing it.  From what I've seen lately, both companies make great looking locomotives.
2. That's another hard question because of the diverse types of cars.  The majority of my cars are MTH, closely followed by Atlas, and Lionel.  They're all really good examples of their types (steel, coal, iron ore related).
3. Again, are we talking over time or currently?  I don't think there is really a solid answer here, either.
4. Within the particular niche, the answer varies.  For example, if we're talking H21 hoppers the only answer (and it's a very high quality one) is Atlas.  For passenger cars, I like K-Line.
5. I tried and abandoned DCS a long time ago.  I run TMCC (not Legacy), because it meets my needs and is reliable.

George

IMO MTH was at their best when they made something that wasn't replicated by Lionel or 3rd Rail. I never liked DCS and smoke is a non-issue for me, especially these days. A few of their models made it onto my layout after some pretty heavy modification. Believe it or not, their 2500HP transfer diesels could barely make it around my curves because of their weird floppy plastic idler wheel trucks. For me a lot of their stuff was pretty mediocre until I could get them some shop time.

I much prefer Lionel and 3rd Rail models from the 2000s TMCC era and some select Lionel Legacy models. The current ex-MTH Lionels are cursed.

That being said, for you MTH fans, how do you explain MTH's current state? Seems like they should have had the 3 rail world on lock by now if one reads through all the above testimonials. What happened?

Norm has a point, some of the cool things Lionel never did was stuff like the Aerotrain, etc.

"Seems like they should have had the 3 rail world on lock by now if one reads through all the above testimonials. What happened?"

Just my take, but there were multiple factors.  Lionel brand name recognition won out in the end.  Lionel's starter sets were less expensive if of lower quality.  Lionel's dealer network was stronger.

Mike Wolf started out the late 1990s by disparaging command control. Then he introduced PS2, but DCS wasn't available yet.  PS1 had been a big success until people realized the required batteries were a pain the neck.  DCS itself didn't appear until six years after TMCC and two years after PS2.  Initially Mike Wolf said no upgrades to PS1.  Then the lawsuits hit their peak and that turned a lot of people off.  DCS initially was quite unpredictable and more complex to install than TMCC/Legacy, which caused some heartburn.  So multiple factors worked against MTH, some self-inflicted.

I run Lionel and MTH

Legacy/BASE 3 and DCS   I have VisionLine, Legacy, Lionchief and LC+, and a bunch of my (my dad's) original Postwar stuff.  In MTH. I have Premier, Railking, and Rugged Rails

Accessories from both, scale or not.  I love my oversize Gatemen

I run everything. No shelf queens.

It all works.

Throw in some Atlas and some Menard's as well. If I like it and want it, I'll get it, regardless of who make it.  

There isn't a straightforward answer to this.... but personally:

Price: MTH

Locomotives: Lionel

Rolling Stock: MTH

Control System: Lionel

Transformer: MTH

Accessories: MTH

Overall attention to details (paint, etc): MTH

@Brian DeFazio posted:

There isn't a straightforward answer to this.... but personally:

Price: MTH

Locomotives: Lionel

Rolling Stock: MTH

Control System: Lionel

Transformer: MTH

Accessories: MTH

Overall attention to details (paint, etc): MTH

Pretty straightforward,….I agree with that 100% ….

Pat

For me it is Lionel as Lionel and Marx were the only two companies making 027 trains in the 1950's, as I like postwar trains.  I do have one MTH, a MTH 840 Jersey Central 0-4-0 T, Tanker or dockside switcher which is a great little engine.

Charlie

1. Can't answer. I have bought one MTH Railking and several Lionel (VL, Legacy, and conventional). They have all worked for me out of the box and benefitted from tinkering.
2. Equal for freight cars and cabeese I think. I own many of both and have never had a problem.
3. MTH freight cars tend to either be a little more specialized like the steel industry cars or have opening doors like fishbelly hoppers so I'll say MTH for this one.
4. Got my first command system in 2020 or 2021 I think. It was DCS. It was easy enough on my 4x8 layout at the time. I got Legacy a short while after and it was also easy.

I would say I'm a lot less experienced than others here so I say my answers are from a noob point of view. My actual opinions are that both products are great and the average newcomer is going to be thrilled with either company. I have been very fortunate not to have to return anything for repair and equally fortunate to be able to reseat loose light plugs or modify chuff sensors. I buy what suits my model railroad or what I like; so 3rdrail, Atlas, MTH, Lionel, RMT, etc just have to come out with accurate ingot buggies and I won't try to sell the ones I'm making as kits to try to recover the time/money I spent developing them

@Norm Charbonneau posted:

That being said, for you MTH fans, how do you explain MTH's current state? Seems like they should have had the 3 rail world on lock by now if one reads through all the above testimonials. What happened?

That's easy.  Mike Wolf retired in 2021 and it was perfectly within his rights to do so.  My understanding was Mr. Wolf's original plan was to sell everything off that would sell (and a lot of tooling was indeed sold off) and completely shut down the company (see announcement at link here: https://mthtrains.com/news/658), until a group of MTH employees stepped forward and said that they'd have a go at keeping the company in business.  MTH is a much smaller company now than it was when it was run by Mr. Wolf.

Whatever you think of MTH's products, the company was great (and to a lesser extent now, still is) for the hobby.  The marketplace competition between Lionel and MTH made both companies innovate and kept prices in check.

Matt

i like the PFA sequences that MTH has as it reminds of the old station audio clips that TM Books and videos used for i love toy trains

also the smoke output of MTH is still better than lionel in my opinion

also as a traditional guy MTH railking has way more variety of engines than lionel and pretty much all of them past and present have more realistic sound

HOWEVER

lionel has a base to their sounds that shakes your empire

i also really like lionel crewtalk even though its not realistic at all

also stuff like air raid sirens on military engines , werewolves on halloween stuff and french horns on christmas stuff is really cool

and lionel in my opinion makes the best halloween and christmas stuff while i will never own a halloween engine i do plan to own a christmas engine hopefully it will be lionchief plus 2.0

plus lionel has a huge nostalgia factor too

in conclusion lionel is and will always be my favorite o gauge manufacturer

Ever since OP Iron Horse posted the following about a particular piece of rolling stock in the 2023 Volume 1 catalog, Lionel has been my brand of choice. He has already settled it for me. I may not get out much, but I haven’t seen anything from MTH quite like this. How could you not go with Lionel?

IRON HORSEOGR Forum Member SUPPORTING MEMBERDIGITAL SUBSCRIBER

Anyone want to add an anti-Christ car to their layout?  There's nothing like a good ol' Exorcist car, isn't there, complete with the girl floating back and forth above the train car as it ****s your layout for eternity?  I joked with my wife about adding this and she said she would burn my layout to the ground if I did!

Thats something i forgot in my last post. When mike came on the scene he woke lionel up, if you remember how it was when lionel was the only game in town with poor quality and not much innovations. Well competition is good and we, the train buying public benefited from it the most. Late 90s and early 2000s were a good time for buying trains.

@paigetrain posted:

and lionel in my opinion makes the best halloween and christmas stuff while i will never own a halloween engine i do plan to own a christmas engine hopefully it will be lionchief plus 2.0

Lionel's Halloween stuff is pretty cool especially the glow-in-the-dark stuff recently released. But when it comes to Christmas, the MTH LED lit engines, rolling stock and passenger cars garner way more comments and interest than the Lionel Christmas items on my display layouts.

"Anyone want to add an anti-Christ car to their layout?  There's nothing like a good ol' Exorcist car, isn't there, complete with the girl floating back and forth above the train car as it ****s your layout for eternity?  I joked with my wife about adding this and she said she would burn my layout to the ground if I did! "

That's hilarious Norman R

I hope Lionel sells all the Polar Express, Harry Potter, Scooby Doo, Star Trek - and the Exorcist - sets it can if it funds Visionline projects like the upcoming J1e

Hi Robert,

I wish I could claim credit for that post, but it was actually Iron Horse who made those observations about the Lionel Exorcist car. Its among my all-time favorite posts I’ve read on the Forum.

Cheers!

I'm glad you guys enjoyed that.  Church Lady would have said to Lionel, "Isn't that special"