Lionel Trains versus MTH Trains?

I think you are going to get a lot of strongly biased opinions one way or the other, that don't really illuminate anything.  I get it that you are just curious, but these sorts of discussions rarely turn out amicable and informative.  And most of us don't care. We just buy what we prefer, one way or the other. And the two companies are no longer truly directly competing in most ways, having very different business models.

And by the way, do sprung trucks have any functional benefit? I don't know, but I've heard opinions both ways.

I have lots of both, but I tend to lean a bit to Lionel nowadays.

#1: Our modular club has more issues running MTH than Lionel, so when I take stuff to a show, it's almost always Lionel equipment.

#2: Lionel will be here for the long term, and they continue to innovate.

#3: Lionel is richer in features, and especially in steam, they have the clear sound advantage in most cases.

I will say, mechanically I would give MTH the edge in most cases, they're drivetrains have been far more trouble-free than Lionel over the years.

While Lionel was reissuing the same old retreads, MTH was bringing entirely new Scale items to the three rail market.  What words did you utter when you first saw Mike's Challenger.  I remember my complete surprise and shock.  Lionel even used Mike as a supplier for scale engines while they were trying to play catch-up.

I have to admit, I hate with a passion the sounds coming from all of the new engines. cars and where ever else they emit from.  I have disliked sounds from the first time I heard the Lionel Chicken car many years ago.

For price and value, hands down MTH.  However, even though I do not buy Lionel there is no question they are a survivor company.  Mike, from the Reading T-1 (in a Lionel box) set the standard for what we have come to expect from the new generation of Scale engines.  He certainly ranks with Cowan for quality, innovation and devotion to the industry.

That does not negate my unhappiness in July, 2020 when the announcement was made.

Because I think MTH has an important place in three rail history I have purchased a lot of the prototype and engineering samples that were brought to market early on.  I am not talking about all the stuff that was left sitting on the shelves  when they had the big auction where people thought they were getting 'the real thing' but mostly got warranty replacement items with no insides.

Anyway, I am totally happy with my Lionel Postwar collection because it represents the best of that time period.  I am happy with my Williams Collection because for the time period it moved the industry forward and gave Mike the start he needed to make his contributions.  The Weaver/Mike connection also was a step forward from the Williams/Mike relationship.

Connecting the dots from the late 80's through 2020 it is always Mike/MTH time after time either behind the scenes or leading in the fore ground driving this industry forward.

Steam sounds- Lionel

Diesel sounds - MTH

Build quality - MTH.  Older Korean built Lionel is on a par with MTH

Operating accessories and cars- MTH

Scale freight cars are comparable between the two.

Scale Cabooses- MTH

I'm very happy with the 990 Legacy System . I have not used DCS to comment.

I do enjoy operating MTH engines conventionally via the Lionel TPC , and they run very " command like" .

Let's be grateful we ( still) have both. MTH 's special offerings have been fantastic. Lionel acquiring some of the MTH tooling has allowed other great models to be produced , instead of the tooling sitting in the back of a warehouse collecting dust.

Just going to say, my rule of thumb is, when I hear squeaking, check the Weaver cars first.

The hard part is remembering which Weaver cars I replaced the trucks. Both Lionel and MTH make them.

I will always be a Lionel fan. That being said they have many negatives since they moved from Michigan. Poor quality control, wrong shade of color or wrong color entirely. Prices that make me shake my head. However, if both offered the same item, Lionel would be my first choice.

Based on my experience with brand-new products, I have to say neither one. I've had much better luck taking my  older locos and having them upgraded to either DCS or TMCC. They may not be the latest/greatest available, but they run. Over the last few years, I have also bought several older MTH locos (some new-old-stock and some used) equipped with PS2 and Pittman motors, and have had zero issues with them. I can't say the same for the new locos I have purchased (both brands), all of which have been returned.

@BlueComet400 posted:

Based on my experience with brand-new products, I have to say neither one. I've had much better luck taking my  older locos and having them upgraded to either DCS or TMCC.

If you're looking at the whole universe, then I would also go with older MTH locomotives, especially steam.  They were bulletproof, and made great upgrade candidates.  As you say, the fact that older steam typically came with a quality Pittman motor just is icing on the cake.

I buy based on prototype. Brand doesn’t enter my decision. None are perfect anyway.

Pete

I really like the Imperial Railking line. You get more bang for your buck than LC+ 2.0. However, I have numerous of Lionel and MTH and like them all. Figured I would chime in before this topic gets closed.

Over the years I’ve bought an equal number of locomotives from both. Neither brand has been trouble free but I have had more trouble with MTH than Lionel. I will agree older MTH steam drive trains were almost bullet proof.

My primary interest recently has been steam and MTH has seemed to be more trouble free overall than many Lionel steamers in the chassis and gears arena. So many Lionel products have required rebuilds from some of our talented members (harmonyards and others) and these problems have been around for years, yet Lionel has done little to address them in many cases. I gather that these issues still crop up with alarming regularity in some $1200+ locomotives. Sad.

Will agree that Lionel's steam sounds are 2nd to none but my MTH locomotives are pretty nice too.

Look back 22 years when PS2 first came out - It really was/is "The Best Way to Run a Railroad" in many aspects. DCS had features that Legacy still doesn't have although both offer more that I was ever able to fully comprehend or utilize!  Lol

Am thankful that we still have both however and we're still in "The Golden Age" of 3 rail model trains!

these sorts of discussions rarely turn out amicable and informative.  And most of us don't care. We just buy what we prefer, one way or the other.

And by the way, do sprung trucks have any functional benefit? I don't know, but I've heard opinions both ways.

I respectfully disagree with you on both counts.  Based on the responses after your response, there can be some real insight here and I genuinely am interested in the good in both companies.  I did not post this to brag about how great I think MTH and my collection is.  And sprung trucks matter to me just like rivets count to rivet counters.

Mike

@stubbsO posted:

You have too much time on your hands

Actually, like a lot of people, I don't spend enough time on this forum because I work full time and, between working on my layout and trying to squeeze time for an occasional Harley ride, not to mention the precious time I need to spend with my family, this question was important enough to me to put it out there.

@gunrunnerjohn posted:

I have lots of both, but I tend to lean a bit to Lionel nowadays.

#1: Our modular club has more issues running MTH than Lionel, so when I take stuff to a show, it's almost always Lionel equipment.

#2: Lionel will be here for the long term, and they continue to innovate.

#3: Lionel is richer in features, and especially in steam, they have the clear sound advantage in most cases.

I will say, mechanically I would give MTH the edge in most cases, they're drivetrains have been far more trouble-free than Lionel over the years.

Thank you, GRJ, this is exactly the type of response/info I was seeking.  The richer in features part interests me.  In fact, I've been considering buying a Lionel engine but I'm a little cautious because I only have DCS.

@B rad posted:

I really like the Imperial Railking line. You get more bang for your buck than LC+ 2.0. However, I have numerous of Lionel and MTH and like them all. Figured I would chime in before this topic gets closed.

Why would this topic get closed?  There are great comments here, like your comment about liking them all.  I have Williams engines, too and they have a place in my collection because they are work horses that I can just run for hours on end and I've heard that museums like to use them for the same reason.

I have to say that I also much prefer the 'stainless' plating that MTH has had for years mostly on their Santa Fe diesels.

Lionel didn't offer this feature for a long time until the Legacy F3's and even then the finish is rather lackluster compared to the Premiere diesels for MTH.

MTH's catalogs didn't depict this feature visually and unless you saw them in person you had no idea how nice they looked!

I have several MTH Santa Fe's (Red & Yellow) with the stainless plating in HO that are quite old - 12 -14 years?

These Premiere ABBA's are spectacular and have replaced my earlier Lionel set.

I see some answers praising Lionel for their sounds, which makes me curious: what advantage do you give Lionel for sounds?  I would say MTH is almost always better than Lionel for sounds because Lionel is so formulaic.  Even the Legacy Promontory engines have radio crackle when the crew talks (although there were clearly no radios in the 1860s!).  I have the MTH Lo-V subways and I love the authentic New York sounds.  Lionel engines are great for many reasons (and they also have their flaws, just like MTH) but on sound specifically I'd always expect MTH to have more authentic and interesting sounds.  Lionel seems to have one or two voice actors on retainer who keep reciting the same scripts over and over again with the engine numbers changed.

@BC1989 posted:

I see some answers praising Lionel for their sounds, which makes me curious: what advantage do you give Lionel for sounds?  I would say MTH is almost always better than Lionel for sounds because Lionel is so formulaic.

Well, I did emphasize the steam sounds as being more of a standout.  Since I seldom use the crew talk except to entertain visitors, I am more tuned into the whistle, bell, and the chuff for steam.  For most steam, the MTH sounds don't come close to some of the better sounds with Legacy steam.

I had the MTH 2017 Premier Big Boy, not a cheap engine.  The sounds of the Lionel Vision Line Big Boy put that to shame.  The MTH whistle sounded like a wounded cow, and certainly nothing like a steam whistle!  The Legacy whistle, OTOH, sounds so realistic you think you're there.

I remember many yeas ago when I was a retailer I had brough a new diesel home from teh shop to test on the floor layout. It was a WIlliams or Frank's Roundhouse and after a loop or two around we hear this strange man's voice utter something unintelligible out of nowhere!  Who said that?  Lol.  It was a surprise addition from the engine and very novel and effective.

Since then however, I'd rather not have any crew sounds and some of lionel's are truly obnoxious IMO. Perhaps it's the particular dialect used but I turn them off, especially in all my steam locomotives.

I have an MTH Railking steamer with PS2 and a Premier Diesel with PS3.  The sound on the steamer is great, but I can't understand a thing the crew is saying with the PS3 Premier diesel.  Not the case with any Lionel I have.

John

I agree with the concept of prototype fidelity over manufacturer.  However, I am for many biased reasons am particular to 3rd Rail over either of these two inferior choices.

@Norton posted:

I buy based on prototype. Brand doesn’t enter my decision. None are perfect anyway.

Pete

Exactly.

I am not a brand-preference guy in this hobby, anyway. MTH quality has been the most consistent I will say. When you open an MTH box, there are seldom any surprises. But, there are not many with the others, either (well....Lionel paint has kept me from a purchase or two in recent years; probably a good thing). Lionel won hands down in the command operating system, however.

Without Lionel, MTH would not have had anyone to emulate, so it would probably not exist. Without MTH, Lionel would have remained stagnant, irrelevant and, ultimately, gone.

And, without Jerry Williams, would Mike Wolf have made all those wonderful trains?

We're lucky(?!) to have all this stuff, from all the "manufacturers".

I really like the custom part of today’s MTH/Atlas. I can get the road names I most want from my local hobby shop.

I don't pick sides, as the trains in my inventory adequately reflects. I have just about an equal number of locomotives in both brands, not to mention some Atlas O and others. No question that Lionel in recent years is the leader in coming out with new models as opposed to new paint schemes on previously existing models, but my most recent motive power acquisitions have been about 50/50 Lionel & MTH.

Here is my anecdotal experience.

I prefer MTH, especially Railking and PS3, and love my DCS remote system that has worked flawlessly for me since it installed it on my layout in 2020. I have at least 20 MTH locomotives I bought over the last 25 years, all of which have performed flawlessly ever since I got great advice on the Forum that enabled me to avoid damaging the circuit boards in the engines.

I like Lionel Lionchief Plus and Lionchief plus 2.0 a lot, and run them with either the dedicated or universal remote. I think it’s great that they run with speed control that requires no wiring unlike the DCS system.

I do not have the Legacy base.

i have 3 Lionel Legacy locomotives, one of which is a ten wheeler with whistle steam that is my best locomotives; 2 others have problems one of which I bought brand new and the other I bought used.

Arnold

@RickO posted:

Steam sounds- Lionel

Diesel sounds - MTH

Build quality - MTH.  Older Korean built Lionel is on a par with MTH

Operating accessories and cars- MTH

Scale freight cars are comparable between the two.

Scale Cabooses- MTH

I'm very happy with the 990 Legacy System . I have not used DCS to comment.

I do enjoy operating MTH engines conventionally via the Lionel TPC , and they run very " command like" .

Let's be grateful we ( still) have both. MTH 's special offerings have been fantastic. Lionel acquiring some of the MTH tooling has allowed other great models to be produced , instead of the tooling sitting in the back of a warehouse collecting dust.

Build quality - MTH.  Older Korean built Lionel is on a par with MTH

this is where I stand, the stuff both manufacturers made in this era, as far robustness, we’ll never see again!….I’ll happily seek out turn of the century products made by both manufacturers, and upgrade them. I believe this era was the pinnacle of sturdy, well built models,……by 2015, the ball started rolling down hill IMO, …..we just didn’t see the mistakes, & QC issues back then, ….The good ol days …😁

Pat

Beta vs VHS... Beta was very much the better technology but the world settled on VHS. Beta had that goofy container design that didn't stack well. I made my living selling PBX equipment (telephone switching). ROLM PBXs were engineered better but Nortel was much more user friendly. Now ROLM doesn't exist. I dunno.

I consider myself fortunate in being non-sectarian with model railroad companies. I've come to embrace the strengths of both Lionel and MTH, as I did with K-line, Weaver, and still do with Woodland Scenics, and I am of the opinion that it takes a community to build a really neat train layout. And in that community, there is a profusion, or was at one time, of cottage industries that enabled layout building to the nth degree. I really love that community of talented and skilled artists who make neat items. Some of them haven't embraced the internet and can only be found at train meets, or via second-hand on the internet. Discovering them and their works is part of the fun of the hobby.

I was born and raised a Lionel guy - still have my first set I received for Christmas in the early 60’s. When I stared buying my own trains in the early 70’s, Lionel was pretty much the only game in town and that’s what I bought. So when command control started, as everything I had was Lionel, I went with TMCC and then Legacy. Being a techno-peasant, I had no interest in adding DCS, so I never paid much attention to MTH products (except for 2 shelf queens I purchased because I road on them - an Amtrak TurboTrain and a Metro North New Haven Genesis). In the last few years, however, I have become a big fan of quite a bit of MTH rolling stock. I have picked up a few of their ABS passenger car sets and RPO’s as well as box cars and reefers. And don’t get me started on their Map Cylindrical Hoppers!!! So, I have to agree with the sentiment several have expressed - I’m glad they are both around and producing some great trains.

I used to do demos for MTH, so I am somewhat biased (I would rather put that out there up front).

That being said...

For reliability, MTH without question.

For steam sound, Lionel for the most part (some of the MTH PS-3 sounds are pretty impressive though).

For diesel sound, it is largely dependent on the individual locomotive but is essentially a tie.

I run DCS and Legacy on my small layout.

Sunset/3rd Rail steam sheet metal on an MTH chassis with a big 'ol Pittman in the back! Honorable mention of those Weaver models sheet metal as well ...

Both have some excellent diesel models - DCS seems so much easier to me than Legacy, but I do like that Legacy bluetooth when running  2-3 trains on a normal layout ...

Let's enjoy them both, and Atlas and Sunset/3rd Rail while we have them!

Agree with RickO and Harmonyards - Early MTH stuff made in Korea (Sanda Kan?) is bulletproof! Early Lionel TMCC stuff very much the same. It was a great thing Lionel did, opening up TMCC to the other 3 rail manufacturers. That level of cooperation is unusual in O gauge.

@ryoung3 posted:

Sunset/3rd Rail steam sheet metal on an MTH chassis with a big 'ol Pittman in the back! Honorable mention of those Weaver models sheet metal as well ...

Both have some excellent diesel models - DCS seems so much easier to me than Legacy, but I do like that Legacy bluetooth when running  2-3 trains on a normal layout ...

Let's enjoy them both, and Atlas and Sunset/3rd Rail while we have them!

Sunset/3rd rail is an outlier from the main brands and they seem stunning.  I'd love to see their stuff in person.  I have recently purchased new Atlas O with DCS and they have now become a major staple for me as their commitment to real trains in models is top notch.  IMHO, their quality and paint schemes are awesome.

@c.sam posted:

I have to say that I also much prefer the 'stainless' plating that MTH has had for years mostly on their Santa Fe diesels.

Lionel didn't offer this feature for a long time until the Legacy F3's and even then the finish is rather lackluster compared to the Premiere diesels for MTH.

MTH's catalogs didn't depict this feature visually and unless you saw them in person you had no idea how nice they looked!

I have several MTH Santa Fe's (Red & Yellow) with the stainless plating in HO that are quite old - 12 -14 years?

These Premiere ABBA's are spectacular and have replaced my earlier Lionel set.

I totally agree!

When I got into this hobby back in 2006 I chose MTH over Lionel simply because the DCS handheld controller had a screen and the Lionel TMCC controller didn't.  Had Lionel's had I would have went that route.  I wanted to keep things simple, and still do, and only want one control system.  I was also amazed by command control so anything else was out.

Ah... nothing like a good Orange vs Purple vs Orange vs "What About Marx?" war!

We haven't had one here in a while. Long overdue.

Gimme a sec to get some popcorn popped. This will be like old times!

erdnA

I like what I like, and whatever the grandsons want to see on the layout on their next visit.

Since I tend to collect and operate a lot of fantasy trains like Harry Potter, Polar Express, Snoopy Christmas, Transylvania Express, etc., I prefer Lionel Sets.

But, I am also partial to Subways and Food and Beer Cars, and MTH has produced many of those, so there are a bunch of them on my shelves.

There is nothing cooler than watching my Peanuts Halloween train cross over my **** Gate Bridge.

I think MTH and Lionel diesels are pretty even with some models that excel (see csam's MTH ATSF F units with stainless steel above).  MTH steam is mechanically superior, but Lionel RS4 & 5 and Legacy steam sounds are much better than MTH. 3rd Rail locos are mechanically sound and superior in detail and prototype accuracy (both steam and diesel), but they are limited to generic ERR sounds which is a shame.

MTH locomotives win hands down on value, followed by K-line TMCC and Lionel TMCC.  With steam you have to factor in the time/cost of adding a super chuffer in order to match MTH steam features.

As fantastic as new Legacy and Vision Line locomotives are, they are priced out of the market for most hobbyists.  I recently bought 2 JLC GG1s (no zinc rot) for $450 and $500.  I could buy a 3rd one and still be under the discounted cost of 1 Vision Line GG1.  The JLCs look and run fantastic, have configurable automatic pantographs, smoke, and excellent sound including catenary "crackle."  The Vision Line features are nice, but not  that nice.

In addition to the premium cost issues, Lionel's recent quality control issues with paint colors and defective gears/gearboxes makes me hesitate to do any pre-orders.  They still haven't addressed the gearbox issues with the K4 or L1 (fortunately my K4 has the Harmon Shops repair).  Are you listening Lionel?  When you mess up the engineering, do a recall and upgrade them.

I'm not in one camp.  I pick and choose based on features and value.  My locomotive roster numbers high to low:
MTH Premier
K-line TMCC
Lionel TMCC
Lionel Legacy
Atlas TMCC
3rd Rail

Bob