Lionel Trains VISIONLINE J1e HUDSON

@Sean's Train Depot

These aren't exactly a remake of the VL Hudson's from before mainly because it isn't the same tooling. That one was the original 700E tooling if I'm not mistaken with the "Lionel" or "Built by Lionel" where the builder's plate is supposed to be.

That being said however both are great or will be great depending on which we're talking about. Being that this run isn't out yet, we'll have to see what they are when they arrive.

We can speculate a little about how great it will be, but we'll only know when we see which tooling is used. Will it be the detailed K-Line tooling, or some other one, or a new tooling altogether? I am a little excited to be sure, especially since I am a Hudson fiend if you will. The appeal of the Hudson just is something for each Hudson lover(nut). Even among different variations and model runs. Arguably, it is hard for some of us to say which Hudson is our best since we seem to love them all.

Have there been any other announcements on custom runs besides from Mr. Muffins?

@RamblerDon posted:

Have there been any other announcements on custom runs besides from Mr. Muffins?

I haven't seen any, but that doesn't mean that they aren't in the works. I would imagine if they are we should be hearing something in the next few days. I would have expected maybe at least one to two more, but maybe the order quantity is too high, which is understandable. I do know that Steve's P&LE is one he wants done, but may be a hard one to seel. The B&A I'm sure will be the easiest to get to the order quantity.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

I haven't seen any, but that doesn't mean that they aren't in the works. I would imagine if they are we should be hearing something in the next few days. I would have expected maybe at least one to two more, but maybe the order quantity is too high, which is understandable. I do know that Steve's P&LE is one he wants done, but may be a hard one to seel. The B&A I'm sure will be the easiest to get to the order quantity.

If you don't mind me asking what is the significance of the P&LE version.

I looked at the listing and saw a Berk as the picture.

@RamblerDon posted:

If you don't mind me asking what is the significance of the P&LE version.

I looked at the listing and saw a Berk as the picture.

That is much like the other one with the Mohawk picture, it's a placeholder for Steve.

Does anyone know if these engines will have the dual-speaker sound systems most VL engines have? I seem to recall that the original VL Hudson had just a single speaker. Hoping for stereo this time!

@David Ogletree posted:

Does anyone know if these engines will have the dual-speaker sound systems most VL engines have? I seem to recall that the original VL Hudson had just a single speaker. Hoping for stereo this time!

That's a Ryan or Dave question. Best email them directly to get that answer.

Rather than speculating, I asked Ryan Kunkle of Lionel if he could share more info on the VisionLine Hudson.    Based on Ryan sharing some info, I am now looking to get two…..    lol

Some good info below;

Joe,
We no longer have the K Line tooling for the J1, but I did have a sample of one.  We used that and of course prototype drawings/photos to point out the week spots in the 700e.  While the new Vision won't be the K Line model (I think it should be even better!) that is probably the best comparison I can give for the level of detail we're going for.  These will all be upgrades to the current boiler, both retooling the molded in details as well as new brass parts to add on.  

A couple of key things that jump to mind are the seem and clips at the top of the boiler where the jacketing is joined together, separate builders plates, refined or replaced sand and air lines, drop plate behind the cab, the cab roof is being completely reworked, finer details and better profile on the pilot, better class lights, whistle, all the fine details.  If the video hasn't already been posted it should be soon and there are some screen shots of the design in there.  Short of a brass hybrid model, I think this will be an outstanding die-cast locomotive and a worthy modern chapter to our Hudson history.

The last Legacy Hudsons we've done have been J3 models - so different tooling and locomotive.  The detail on the new J1 will be the equivalent or superior to the J3.  

And yes, there will be more good things to go with them in volume 1!  That's all I can say about that.  😊


Ryan Kunkle
Director of Project Management
6301 Performance Dr | Concord, NC 28027

@RamblerDon posted:

If you don't mind me asking what is the significance of the P&LE version.

I looked at the listing and saw a Berk as the picture.

Good Afternoon,

While there are a few photos showing Hudson's operating over P&LE trackage,  the P&LE never rostered any Hudson engines.   So any P&LE Hudson produced will be a fantasy engine.

@RamblerDon posted:

If you don't mind me asking what is the significance of the P&LE version.

I looked at the listing and saw a Berk as the picture.

I’m not sure what Mr. Steve has going on, …..he’s got pictures of Mohawks, & A2’s …maybe he’s just showing what they’ll potentially be??….maybe he’ll splain??…

but I agree with the above reply, no Hudsons rostered by the P&LE, any assignments would’ve been by the Central proper, as motive power demands rose, naturally, the P&LE was primarily a freight road, with little passenger traffic,…..this information was confirmed by the walking book of all things NYC, my buddy Mario,…..I’m really a lines east guy ……..where the 4 track stops, it can get foggy for us folk in the proper….😉

Pat

That info from Ryan sounds pretty good - thanks for sharing that. I look forward to seeing the video he mentions.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

@Sean's Train Depot

These aren't exactly a remake of the VL Hudson's from before mainly because it isn't the same tooling. That one was the original 700E tooling if I'm not mistaken with the "Lionel" or "Built by Lionel" where the builder's plate is supposed to be.

That being said however both are great or will be great depending on which we're talking about. Being that this run isn't out yet, we'll have to see what they are when they arrive.

We can speculate a little about how great it will be, but we'll only know when we see which tooling is used. Will it be the detailed K-Line tooling, or some other one, or a new tooling altogether? I am a little excited to be sure, especially since I am a Hudson fiend if you will. The appeal of the Hudson just is something for each Hudson lover(nut). Even among different variations and model runs. Arguably, it is hard for some of us to say which Hudson is our best since we seem to love them all.

Not saying they are re-runs of the 2010 at all, they are not.  But a couple years ago we also had a Legacy Run of the Hudson J3 (which I also have one of those too), and it also had the water scoop affect option, so that is not new.  Besides some detail changes, it's not enough for me to buy it and like I said I am ok with what I have rather than buy another Hudson.   Thats just for me. 

As I said I would just rather see something new reserved for Vision Line, that's all. 

I assume if one buys two different versions with two different tenders they are interchangeable and the road number audio is specific the the engine and not the tender?

@VADarthDad posted:

I assume if one buys two different versions with two different tenders they are interchangeable and the road number audio is specific the the engine and not the tender?

Typically the Railsounds card is in the tender so cab number stays with the tender unless you swap the boards.

Pete

@VADarthDad posted:

I assume if one buys two different versions with two different tenders they are interchangeable and the road number audio is specific the the engine and not the tender?

Pete is correct, …you can swap tenders back & forth but the unique dialogue follows the tender.

Pat

@David Ogletree posted:

Does anyone know if these engines will have the dual-speaker sound systems most VL engines have? I seem to recall that the original VL Hudson had just a single speaker. Hoping for stereo this time!

Great question!  That’s been on my mind, too.  The marketing info doesn’t mention anything about a dual speaker system.  Would Lionel release a VL steamer without it?

Well that kind of stinks.  I assume swapping the sound chips won't really do it justice, as I would think there are unique sounds related to the water sound effects on the PT tender that are different.  So you might get the dialogue about the road number back, but lose the unique PT sounds....I wonder if Lionel thought about this in the design, and like the different whistle tones, could offer a sound option via the remote such that you could chose which tender you have behind the engine.  I wonder if this feature would then drive sales for folks to purchase either a 2nd engine, or at minimum, a 2nd tender.

I was hoping for a 2nd tender and willing to buy a 2nd Hudson to have that ability...But not sure I want to go down that path for having unique dialogue that isn't correct....but then again, 99.9% of the folks who might see my layout would NEVER know the difference in audio....let alone probably notice two different tenders...

On a related Hudson subject, I never had the chance to get the original Vision Line one.  I was tired of seeing these at unreasonable prices at York (or not seeing them at all).  $4k for the original for aftermarket prices was rather ridiculous.  So now I have some joy, as I can get mine for what I consider a very fair price.  But I am interested - how many of the originals might we see at York with the price no longer at $2.5-4k with these improved versions coming out.

The other thing you are forgetting is tenders have numbers that match the engine.

Pete

Well thanks @Norton. Lionel owes you some commission as now I will be buying 2.  !

Pete, Lionel needs to make that tender. It could be used on many models.  To late for the B&A Berks. but not for the upcoming B&A Hudson.

Is that a G scale Kadee ?

Just to chime in:

I was hoping for a NYC/B&A "J2" - 8-wheel tender, Lima builder's plate. The J2 had 75", later 76", drivers, and the J1 had 79", but in Model Land, that is a small difference, and is often lost in the engineering needs of operation and flanges anyway. (The K-Line J1 has under-79" drivers, for example.)

Ideally, I would like the J2 presented as it was after transferred to the NYC proper - some retained the 8-wheel tender, but were lettered and numbered as NYC, not B&A. I could have lived with a small-tendered Lima B&A.

If I ever locate a near-proper NYC 8-wheel tender to convert to 3RO, my K-Line J1 may become a Lima J2.  The Lionel short near-scale tender (as behind "ATSF" Warhorse 4-6-4) is still too long...I have an empty one on hand for re-trucking, but.....

Anyway - no J2? Saved me some money.  So far. They do look awfully sweet.

@VADarthDad posted:

But I am interested - how many of the originals might we see at York with the price no longer at $2.5-4k with these improved versions coming out.

With a street price of $1499 for the new one, those used prices have to be long gone, right?  The new one has more features and zero miles on the odometer. Maybe I’m missing something about the collectibility of the first release, but I would be inclined to think a fifteen-year-old model would have to be sold at a discount relative to the new one.

@Rider Sandman posted:

With a street price of $1499 for the new one, those used prices have to be long gone, right?  The new one has more features and zero miles on the odometer. Maybe I’m missing something about the collectibility of the first release, but I would be inclined to think a fifteen-year-old model would have to be sold at a discount relative to the new one.

Good point Rider. Curious but what is the state of the 'collector market' these days on the recent (10 yrs?) trains produced?

I can see some of the classic post and pre war pieces being genuine collectibles but how much interest in or or demand for are pieces produced since 2000 for instance?  Look at the prices on most items that have dropped (some significantly) on premium locomotives and diesels with each new release that has more and better features. Factor in the unavailability of some of Lionel's electronics and what do we have?  Desk queens in many cases. I'm still well pleased with my 20 yr old K-Line #5344 with PS2 but might consider one of these upcoming models.

This new VL Hudson sounds like a real winner. As nice as the 2010 model is, looking at both if priced the same, which one would YOU choose?  No question for me...

@Dave_C posted:

Pete, Lionel needs to make that tender. It could be used on many models.  To late for the B&A Berks. but not for the upcoming B&A Hudson.

Is that a G scale Kadee ?

Dave, ….stay tuned,…..I’m cooking up something!

Pat

c.s. sam, my thought exactly. was just watching youtube videos of the legacy released hudson from 2019. that got my to thinking what those are going for.

saw some on ebay and would love to have the one with the scullen drivers and short tender. the used price was the same as this new visionline model. so that took care of wanting that very quickly.

as for the last visionline hudson model you are correct. the outdated electronics and the sounds just dont justify the prices these engines command.

if the price was under 1,000 maybe I would want one just to have it. personally I think maybe besides the k-line hudson model this visionline one may be the best looking model to date. we shall wait and see though.

That's as tight of a shot possible on my computer. It appears, repeat appears, that the boiler is the same U-shaped monolith casting as more recent scale Lionel Hudsons. It seems most of you are concerned about add-on details, tenders, and sounds. For me, without at least a semi-rounded undersided boiler, everything else is gravy.

I wonder what sort of rolling stock offerings we will get in Vol 1 to go with these.

I'm sure a passenger set or two.

But I wonder if we will get a freight set based on the original prewar scale freight cars.

@Dave_C posted:

Pete, Lionel needs to make that tender. It could be used on many models.  To late for the B&A Berks. but not for the upcoming B&A Hudson.

Is that a G scale Kadee ?

Pat has your back Dave. No worries. Someone also needs to make the PT2 tender as well. Very different from the later PT3 and PT4 that everyone has done.

Pete

@Sean's Train Depot posted:

Not saying they are re-runs of the 2010 at all, they are not.  But a couple years ago we also had a Legacy Run of the Hudson J3 (which I also have one of those too), and it also had the water scoop affect option, so that is not new.  Besides some detail changes, it's not enough for me to buy it and like I said I am ok with what I have rather than buy another Hudson.   Thats just for me.

As I said I would just rather see something new reserved for Vision Line, that's all.

I didn't say you said they were re-runs, I was just pointing out that they are different, but somewhat the same. While the addition of the PT Tender is really the only change to the 2010(besides the tooling for the engine), it is basically the same. And yes, the J3's are great, I have a few because I love Hudson's.

The one question that I would ask you is what is above about the J2's as D500 expressed above(a proper J2 with all the fixins' he states), whether VL or Legacy would that be enough for you granted if the price was right as well?

@D500 posted:

Just to chime in:

I was hoping for a NYC/B&A "J2" - 8-wheel tender, Lima builder's plate. The J2 had 75", later 76", drivers, and the J1 had 79", but in Model Land, that is a small difference, and is often lost in the engineering needs of operation and flanges anyway. (The K-Line J1 has under-79" drivers, for example.)

Ideally, I would like the J2 presented as it was after transferred to the NYC proper - some retained the 8-wheel tender, but were lettered and numbered as NYC, not B&A. I could have lived with a small-tendered Lima B&A.

If I ever locate a near-proper NYC 8-wheel tender to convert to 3RO, my K-Line J1 may become a Lima J2.  The Lionel short near-scale tender (as behind "ATSF" Warhorse 4-6-4) is still too long...I have an empty one on hand for re-trucking, but.....

Anyway - no J2? Saved me some money.  So far. They do look awfully sweet.

I would love to see a J2, that does look delightful to this Hudson love, I guess I'd have to see if Pat could make one if that was possible, but that is something for another day I suppose.

@harmonyards posted:

I’m not sure what Mr. Steve has going on, …..he’s got pictures of Mohawks, & A2’s …maybe he’s just showing what they’ll potentially be??….maybe he’ll splain??…

but I agree with the above reply, no Hudsons rostered by the P&LE, any assignments would’ve been by the Central proper, as motive power demands rose, naturally, the P&LE was primarily a freight road, with little passenger traffic,…..this information was confirmed by the walking book of all things NYC, my buddy Mario,…..I’m really a lines east guy ……..where the 4 track stops, it can get foggy for us folk in the proper….😉

Pat

Pat, I believe he knows that they didn't have any, just making another complete fantasy scheme right there.

@Paul Kallus posted:

That's as tight of a shot possible on my computer. It appears, repeat appears, that the boiler is the same U-shaped monolith casting as more recent scale Lionel Hudsons. It seems most of you are concerned about add-on details, tenders, and sounds. For me, without at least a semi-rounded undersided boiler, everything else is gravy.

I wouldn’t put too much stock in those illustrations. They appear to be the 2010 release with different paint jobs. Probably won’t know for sure until they are released unless they have an engineering model now.

I recall when Lionel did their heavy Mikado they had a 3D printed version at York. Something similar would lock in more buyers who are now on the fence.

Pete

@Norton posted:

Pat has your back Dave. No worries. Someone also needs to make the PT2 tender as well. Very different from the later PT3 and PT4 that everyone has done.

Pete

I don’t think I’ve ever seen a PT2 in brass either!…..has anyone else?

Pat

If you want another special version. The LCCA has this https://www.lionelcollectors.o...?id=1428&catId=6 who know what actual color may be though

@c.sam posted:

This new VL Hudson sounds like a real winner. As nice as the 2010 model is, looking at both if priced the same, which one would YOU choose?  No question for me...

The lack of builders plates and rivet detail on the steam chest. Along with the squared off cross head guides and over all dated tender tooling, especially in the trucks prevented me from buying the 2010.

It runs and sounds great. Had it been my first scale engine , maybe these noticeable  deficiencies ( to me) would have not been an issue.

If I recall correctly, the best preorder price in 2010 was $1439. With at least one vendor offering a $1499 preorder price on the new one.  With the proposed improvements. The choice seems fairly obvious.

IMO , Lionel has never done a highly detailed J1e. If they do what Ryan and Dave said in the video. This may as well be an "all new" locomotive.

As far as the original 2010 version resale price, because it was " first". Sellers will likely keep trying to gouging.

I know the first run of PFE reefers are often listed for $600. The second run is usually $300 or less. Of course, they are only worth what folks are willing to spend.

@metalman posted:

Good Afternoon,

While there are a few photos showing Hudson's operating over P&LE trackage,  the P&LE never rostered any Hudson engines.   So any P&LE Hudson produced will be a fantasy engine.

As others have said, the P&LE would be fantasy. And the artwork that Mr. Muffins has is to show the color of the locomotives and how they would be decorated.

I am not a NYC modeler, but I put in a pre-order for one of the P&LE versions. Growing up near Pittsburgh, the P&LE is more or less the hometown railroad in my opinion. It was exciting to hear that hear that the P&LE would get some love and this gave me the excuse to buy this engine. I will gladly pull freight with it. Or maybe get a set of NYC passenger cars.

Far more obvious to me than the shape of the underside of the boiler is the scalloped shaped main driving wheel counterweight that all J-1's had after about 1931. The 5344 and others were equipped thus when new from Alco. The reason for this shape was the cross counterbalancing that NYC instituted after testing proved a much smoother running locomotive, especially at high speed. ALL J-1D and J-1E Hudsons were shipped new with this driving wheel arrangement. Since the Lionel models are shown with "raised" running boards with one air reservoir on each side of the engine (vs two air reservoirs on the fireman's side with straight running boards), this model needs a scalloped main driver counterweight in order to be prototypically correct.

Well, I just saw the press release for today on these VL Hudson's and yeah, I am impressed. Ryan went into a bit more detail on these than when they did the initial announcement. I did ask him directly about the color of black on the smoke box as it seemed a bit glossy for the art work. Ryan said that the black on the smoke box is the darker graphite they have been using. I must have missed that on whatever other engines it was on.

All and all these do look pretty darn good. I did ask him the cutoff for pre-orders, he said C1. I guess that is January some time? I'm still thinking on what other Hudson to get as well.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

All and all these do look pretty darn good. I did ask him the cutoff for pre-orders, he said C1. I guess that is January some time? I'm still thinking on what other Hudson to get as well.

I smell an "Engine of the Year!" with a cut-off date of C1.

@MartyE posted:

I smell an "Engine of the Year!" with a cut-off date of C1.

What exactly is "Engine of the Year" Marty? I know that they had the one with Lionel colors a year or two ago, don't remember what it was(Berkshire)?

I completely agree on the availability of a scale front truck, even if it is an extra cost item. Lionel should consider the use of the correct wheelbase for this truck. On the real engines, the wheelbase was 86-inches. (The MTH L-4 Mohawks have the correct wheelbase, so this is definitely possible in 3R.)

If Lionel is working on the pilot, they should make it adjustable so the bottom is closer to the rail. On most 3R models, the pilot sits far too high. I am sure this was a necessity for "027", etc. but it should be reconsidered for a scale Hudson.

I also wish that Lionel would get rid of the old style "barrel shaped" headlight. All late J-1's had a cast case Pyle-National headlight that was slimmed down behind the reflector. (MTH made this change on their scale Mohawks, and with the use of an LED, should be both easy and low cost to do.)

And I hope that Lionel uses the correct 14-1/2-inch low profile bell.  On almost all 3R Hudsons, the bell is far too high. (MTH also used the correct NYC bell on their Mohawks.) And get rid of the bell chain. NYC Hudsons all used a air activated automatic bell ringer.

I realize the intricacies of manufacturing, so these comments are intended by me as instructive. These "simple things" are what would make a Lionel Hudson without peer as a model.

@Dave NYC Hudson PRR K4 posted:

Ryan went into a bit more detail on these than when they did the initial announcement. I did ask him directly about the color of black on the smoke box as it seemed a bit glossy for the art work. Ryan said that the black on the smoke box is the darker graphite they have been using. I must have missed that on whatever other engines it was on.

Did he say all the VISION Hudsons would have the graphite colored boiler front, as opposed to the all black look?