I am considering purchasing a used Lionel Veranda with TMCC. I currently run Legacy and DCS on a new layout. Is it worth considering the purchase, or will it be kluge running this older engine with Lionel Legacy? I don't want to have to do hardware modifications if I can avoid it.
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It should be fine. TMCC is backward compatible with Legacy. The locomotive just doesn't have the extras that are part of Legacy, Personally, I've always felt that Legacy was full of unnecessary features, to help justify higher prices.
Big_Boy_4005 posted:It should be fine. TMCC is backward compatible with Legacy. The locomotive just doesn't have the extras that are part of Legacy, Personally, I've always felt that Legacy was full of unnecessary features, to help justify higher prices.
Yep - and I tend to agree. For me, at least, there is no known "Legacy" feature that I would use. I do have a couple of Legacy locos, but my TMCC Base and wonky old CAB-1 talk to them just fine. Lionel was very intelligent in this - should be obvious, but many companies no longer engage in rational thinking.
As Big Boy 4005 posted earlier, will not be a problem.
I presently run two TMCC engines with the Legacy base/handset (I have many more TMCC engines still in their boxes until I get my layout build further along). See the section in the manual for the Legacy base/handset named "Controlling Your Layout", page 53 in the manual I have in pdf form. A couple pages in, the manual discusses setting up for an engine, is it TMCC, Legacy, Cab-1, What kind of sound system, etc. This section refers you to a table near the back of the manual. Setting up the Legacy base/handset correctly for your TMCC engine will give the best operational experience.
Many TMCC locomotives actually run better under Legacy. I don't recall the specifics ( someone will chime in I'm sure)
Its something to do with the Legacy transmits the speed steps in a way TMCC is unable to do.
You"ll want the veranda set to TMCC control in the remote, this offers smoother speed steps than Cab1 mode.
Go to the 1:58 mark in Daves video here for manual programming instructions:
This was a "must have" engine for me. I run mine with the Legacy controller. The "Big Blow" is a massive heavy engine and a definite eye catcher on the layout. I don't think you will be sorry.
I've also run mine under Legacy with no issues and at least under the first version of Legacy I used the slow speed control was smoother than under TMCC. (The engine later developed speed control issues but these turned out to be mechanical.)
I dearly wish Lionel would issue a VL/Legacy version of this fine model but when I last suggested it they blanked me!
With all this information concerning Legacy running of TMCC engines, I just may have to get the Legacy system and try it. I have many TMCC engines and if they do operate better with Legacy...……. Also, with ERR installed systems, they also operate the same with Legacy?
Jesse TCA
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:I am considering purchasing a used Lionel Veranda with TMCC. I currently run Legacy and DCS on a new layout. Is it worth considering the purchase, or will it be kluge running this older engine with Lionel Legacy? I don't want to have to do hardware modifications if I can avoid it.
Decided to make the purchase. After all your answers, I felt this would be a good decision. I really am impressed that this is a Diecast Engine and tender.
I love the Veranda, it was an immediate purchase when I saw one pop up for sale. 
It is impressive in operation, a very cool piece.
I also love my Veranda and it runs great with Legacy.
texastrain posted:With all this information concerning Legacy running of TMCC engines, I just may have to get the Legacy system and try it. I have many TMCC engines and if they do operate better with Legacy...……. Also, with ERR installed systems, they also operate the same with Legacy?
Jesse TCA
Yes, ERR, especially the cruise products are a vast improvement over standard tmcc products...only trade off is pullmor equipped TMCC equipment, no real difference between pullmors with TMCC and ERR AC commander. However, anything with can motor and standard TMCC, upgraded to ERR cruise is night and day difference, and works great with legacy....ERR cruise M is even a step above Lionel’s Oddesy System....hopefully GRJ will make any corrections to my reply if need be, but I think I covered most of it for you.........Pat
harmonyards posted:Yes, ERR, especially the cruise products are a vast improvement over standard tmcc products...only trade off is pullmor equipped TMCC equipment, no real difference between pullmors with TMCC and ERR AC commander.
I have to disagree with you on that point. When I did my Lionel Phantom dual motor upgrade, I also pulled the LCRU2 out and used the AC Commander. I got much better low speed performance with the AC Commander, and of course with 100 speed steps, I also got finer control. The engine works really well with the AC Commander.
gunrunnerjohn posted:harmonyards posted:Yes, ERR, especially the cruise products are a vast improvement over standard tmcc products...only trade off is pullmor equipped TMCC equipment, no real difference between pullmors with TMCC and ERR AC commander.
I have to disagree with you on that point. When I did my Lionel Phantom dual motor upgrade, I also pulled the LCRU2 out and used the AC Commander. I got much better low speed performance with the AC Commander, and of course with 100 speed steps, I also got finer control. The engine works really well with the AC Commander.
Thanks John, did I cover everything else?........Pat
That was the only thing I take exception to, it doesn't mirror my experience.
gunrunnerjohn posted:That was the only thing I take exception to, it doesn't mirror my experience.
You are correct John, I guess I’m just spoiled rotten with can motors and cruise M....I tried an AC commander in one of my Mohawks, and then started swapping Pittman’s and Ms and never looked back.....Pat
I had considered can motors for the phantom, but that would have been a pretty expensive conversion as I'd have had to do two of them with adapters. Since I had a free AC motor and mounting plate, it was really a free conversion until I decided to add the AC Commander. You may have seen my thread on the upgrade: Improving the Lionel Phantom Locomotive. It worked out better than I expected.
I'm sure the additional speed steps contribute to smoother operation. However in the case of your Phantom John, adding a 2nd motor DOUBLED the number of power pulses per inch. Also, since the Pullmor diesel motor is back-driveable, the two motors can "help" each other, so it's like upgrading to a 6- or 7-pole motor. The last conventionally-controlled Pullmor-motored diesels (like the Norfolk Southern Dash-8, Chessie SD-40s, etc.) circa 1993 had more realistic starting performance than contemporary offerings from Weaver and MTH, at least until PS2 was introduced circa 2000.
If someone made a 5- or 7-pole armature for the Mohawk, a similar improvement could be achieved. Too bad I don't own a stamping plant, or all of that postwar could become relevant again ;-)
Ted S posted:I'm sure the additional speed steps contribute to smoother operation. However in the case of your Phantom John, adding a 2nd motor DOUBLED the number of power pulses per inch. Also, since the Pullmor diesel motor is back-driveable, the two motors can "help" each other, so it's like upgrading to a 6- or 7-pole motor. The last conventionally-controlled Pullmor-motored diesels (like the Norfolk Southern Dash-8, Chessie SD-40s, etc.) circa 1993 had more realistic starting performance than contemporary offerings from Weaver and MTH, at least until PS2 was introduced circa 2000.
That could be true Ted, but the improvement was really when I replaced the LCRU with the AC Commander.
The Lionel Veranda turbine is what I say is my favorite diesel/turbine engine. Bring it is all diecast, the engine and tender are heavy. Beautifully done, detailed and painted.
Lionel had issues with the diecast shells at first and it finally was produced under the Maddox-era, something he said would get completed while he was president there.
Great engine. They are at there at a very good value around the $700 area.
RickO posted:Many TMCC locomotives actually run better under Legacy. I don't recall the specifics ( someone will chime in I'm sure)
Its something to do with the Legacy transmits the speed steps in a way TMCC is unable to do.
You"ll want the veranda set to TMCC control in the remote, this offers smoother speed steps than Cab1 mode.
Go to the 1:58 mark in Daves video here for manual programming instructions:
Let me see if I did this right:
Assigned engine ID road number as 73, set up for diesel, TMCC, Rail Sounds
I set the tender as above but assigned the road number as 74.
Built a lashup to include the tender. When reversing, tender light goes on. Thar seems to be fine.
Have I done this correctly? I would like to get a handle how to control the smoke with the remote. It is impressive to show and nice to turn it off when running regular. If my selection of operating mode is correct, what is the input to turn smoke on or off? I did do the alt 12, 21, & 22 but really was not sure I did anything. I don't want to blunder and kill the smoke units.
Does running it under CAB-1 offer any more benefits than TMCC operation? Is it possible, or should I stick to TMCC only?
There is no benefit to running in CAB1 mode for the Lionel Veranda with TMCC. Here's the smoke operation addendum for the Veranda.
gunrunnerjohn posted:There is no benefit to running in CAB1 mode for the Lionel Veranda with TMCC. Here's the smoke operation addendum for the Veranda.
I tried that. When I hit the AUX button and the number 1, the volume increased. I question if it had an effect on the smoke. Take it a step further, Page14 of the manual tells you to press Aux and then 1 to increase the volume. Then on page 20 as you reference above tells you to press Aux 1 2 to turn off/on rear smoke unit. The minute you press the 1 before pressing the 2 the volume shoots up. It looks to contradict what it tells you to do on page 20. I know I am missing something.
It's been a while since I ran the Veranda, but I know I had the smoke working fine. I'll have to revisit that.
Since you made it a lash up, do you use TR prior to AUX?
Or are you using ENG?
BobbyD posted:Since you made it a lash up, do you use TR prior to AUX?
Or are you using ENG?
When I run as lash up I use Train. Individual, I use Eng.
And the same result either way?
BobbyD posted:And the same result either way?
Same results either way. I need to spend more time trying it. If I hit the aux button, I presume I should see numbers on the keypad. Perhaps I was not doing it correctly. I think when I hit the AUX button I am still seeing a volume icon in the space that the number 1 character should be in. That may be the issue.
I think I did see a plus and minus icon on the remote. I think I read that it can operate the smoke off/on from the remote.
I only spent about 1/2 hour playing with it last night. I will say, I am blown away by this engine. Hard to believe it is 20 years old. It really looks great pulling UP Piggybacks and UP PFE reefers.
Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:If I hit the aux button, I presume I should see numbers on the keypad.
I will say, I am blown away by this engine. Hard to believe it is 20 years old. It really looks great pulling UP Piggybacks and UP PFE reefers.
How is it set up in the remote as an engine? (I've mystified myself on occasion;-)
I bet it looks great running with those cars.
BobbyD posted:Bryant Dunivan 111417 posted:If I hit the aux button, I presume I should see numbers on the keypad.
I will say, I am blown away by this engine. Hard to believe it is 20 years old. It really looks great pulling UP Piggybacks and UP PFE reefers.
How is it set up in the remote as an engine? (I've mystified myself on occasion;-)
I bet it looks great running with those cars.
To set the train up, I set an ID according to the directions. Set up the engine as a diesel. Set control to TMCC. Then set the sounds to Rail sounds. I did the same with the tender. All looks good except my question regarding smoke. I think I am missing something with regard to the smoke part.
I suggest another interpretation of the Aux1 1+2. Push Aux1, hold down 1, while holding down 1, press 2, then let them both go at the same time.
You know I have had this engine for quite some time. From the instructions that I remember, and that could be totally wrong. One or both smoke units come on at slow speed... cannot remember, than at higher speed one goes off and the other continues... But I do know these smoke units do not follow the normal on/off that we are used too. I will have to dig up the instructions again.
When running my Veranda on a Legacy CAB2, I think that I might have set the control to CAB1 Mode rather than TMCC. I have not run it since upgrading to v1.6 of the Legacy CAB/Base software but I do recall that before then it responded to the smoke off/on controls as per the manual and no sudden increases in volume (although I ran it at full volume anyway). I have found a couple odd glitches with older TMCC or ERR controls running under v. 1.6 and I wonder whether what you are experiencing is another one.
Anyway the smoke features on this engine were very sophisticated for their time and I have always regarded it as a Vision Line forerunner. I particularly like that the diesel smoke output cuts out when the turbine sounds and smoke engage at about 20 scale MPH. I believe that this is the smoke operating feature JDaddy is referring to in the preceding post.
Be aware that both of the smoke units are the older square Lionel diesel units which came stock with fiber sleeves on the resistors. I think that this accounts for the units not outputting as much smoke as you’d expect (or I did).
I’ve taken those sleeves off and it made some difference to smoke output. I’ve thought about swapping out the 27 Ohm resistors for something a little hotter but have not messed with them yet.
The Veranda has a smoke regulator and 8 ohm smoke resistors, no swapping of values of resistors. The rear smoke unit comes on at low speed, and then when the turbine kicks in, the main smoke unit comes on and the rear smoke turns off.
John and I have talked about double-heading the Verandas but he is in Michigan and I am in New Jersey. That would be an awesome sight to see. 2 Verandas blowing smoke after speed step 7 when the front smoke unit kicks and the turbine sounds start.
Made some progress. Press Aux 1 then the 1&2 buttons consecutively. Don’t worry about the fact the numbers are icons. The key is patiience. The smoke takes about a full minute to start and a good full minute to stop. + or - keys did nothing. Bummer my DCS remote won’t operate smoke on or off.
Ted, I'm in PA, and my Veranda is patiently waiting for a mate on the shelf. 
GRJ,
I almost pulled the trigger a few Yorks ago for a second one for $625 but thought about it for a minute. I passed but it was a good thought to run 2!
I might take you up on that mate offer when your layout is complete!
They would look impressive paired up.
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