Lionel Vision Line GG1 Quality Issue

Those look like casting defects not dents. I would return it for another that has been personally inspected or get your money back. Are these made in China or South Korea. Quality control from China is poor, much better from South Korea.

The engine box says made in China.  I believe your right about those being casting defects.

The hobby shop that I ordered my engine from doesn't have anymore Penn Central GG1, and they told me that I have to work with Lionel to resolve the issue since it is a BTO item.

If its' a casting issue then most likely all of them are like that. Send it back or get a smaller magnifying glass.

Rod Miller

paulboes posted:

The hobby shop that I ordered my engine from doesn't have anymore Penn Central GG1, and they told me that I have to work with Lionel to resolve the issue since it is a BTO item.

And that is why I can't justify paying more just to support the local shop. The benefit to the customer just really isn't there.

Post deleted as no longer relevant.

Wow, this is really disappointing. My  head hurts thinking about how much you paid for this and receiving something like this. Not to be to harsh here, but, for goodness sakes. Whipping the market with this BTO deal is really sticking it to the people going out on a limb for these things. With these huge prices, it is hard to swallow for sure.

If this keeps up, it is going to do some pretty significant damage to the overall hobby. I am getting more and more pushed out to the edges of the hobby because of the prices and now the onslaught of quality problems, this is really unconscionable!

Sorry LIONEL, time to get the operation back on track (pardon the intentional pun here)!

graz posted:

paulboes posted:

The hobby shop that I ordered my engine from doesn't have anymore Penn Central GG1, and they told me that I have to work with Lionel to resolve the issue since it is a BTO item.

And that is why I can't justify paying more just to support the local shop. The benefit to the customer just really isn't there.

 

Unfortunately that benefit was taken away by the mfr... LHS has just become a middleman. 

OP, I cringed when I saw this thread, I was hoping this engine would be immune to some of the issues we've seen lately.

Good Luck getting it right.

paulboes posted:

The hobby shop that I ordered my engine from doesn't have anymore Penn Central GG1, and they told me that I have to work with Lionel to resolve the issue since it is a BTO item.

Pre-dented? Most accurate Penn Central GG1 ever! 

Ok, but yeah, I'd be a bit peeved if I dropped that kind of money and it had casting inclusions in it. There's just no excuse for passing that through "QC" (heavy emphasis on the quotes), especially after it was painted. Its a huge block of diecast so at least a few will have a couple small imperfections, but it seems like these small things could have been filled prior to paint with no effect on the finished surface. 

Curious to see how this turns out as more people take delivery of them....

Paul, I am so sorry to hear this as these were BTO Products. I would call Lionel Customer Service Right AWAY!! This engine has a 2 Year Warranty and Lionel will send You an RA and will Pay for the return to Lionel for Fast Product Exchange....WOW!

Wow. This is a problem? Barely visible and far smoother sides than the real GG1 ever had - even when new from the builder.

Stand a little farther away. There are indeed things wrong with models from time to time; this is not one of them.

graz posted:

paulboes posted:

The hobby shop that I ordered my engine from doesn't have anymore Penn Central GG1, and they told me that I have to work with Lionel to resolve the issue since it is a BTO item.

And that is why I can't justify paying more just to support the local shop. The benefit to the customer just really isn't there.

 

To be fair, my local hobby shop is cheaper than online.  In addition, they would have exchanged it if they had any in stock.

While disappointing from a QC point of view, fascinating from a prototype point of view.  I have an old MTH casting I was planning on beating up a bit to mimic a late era in service GG1.

Anyone compare to an old JLC version casting?  They probably used the same tooling for the shells, right?  (though maybe if so that tooling suffered after sitting/storage somewhere since the JLCs were done) 

Curious if all the old ones may have also suffered from this.

-Dave

Dave45681 posted:

Anyone compare to an old JLC version casting?  They probably used the same tooling for the shells, right?  (though maybe if so that tooling suffered after sitting/storage somewhere since the JLCs were done) 

Curious if all the old ones may have also suffered from this.

-Dave

I have the JLC version also, and that body has no issue like shown here on the vision line.

That is horrible for the money you paid. that is to glaring to miss,   If there are trying to imitate Penn Central it is still bad, PC G's were a lot worse than that.    

Merry Christmas to all and to all a good night.

Paul,

I would hope your dealer would take back the defective PC  GG1 and track down another one for you.

Lionel is taking a serious PR hit on the QC  issues we are seeing on the Forum.

 Thanks 

Richard

Paul,

    Have you ever seen a real GG1? Those are not imperfections they are character. There was a GG1 parked for a long time at the Whipany NJ Rail Museum on Rt 10. I would pull over to have a good look. All I can remember is it looked like it went through a war, but she was still beautiful. 

JohnB

I have a good mix of MTH, Lionel, 3^Rd rail and a few K-line. I thought all die cast had these types (or larger) inclusion, mine sure do. 

Even my Sunset 3^rd rail steamers have visible solder joints. Never thought to return them, just thought that was the best available for our small run models.

Does anyone have an engine that does not have any visible defects?

Charlie

Sorry to hear this.  I to would be very disappointed to receive a  GG1 like that.      No one wants dents in a train you just shell out over 1000  dollars for.    Let us know how this works out.  Now i am worried about mine i ordered a smooth green one  also      Fingers crossed super tight    They should do all they can for you either  new shell or a whole new engine

It's a bummer that your engine arrived like this, but I would just give Lionel a call. I'm sure they'll make it right. People on here are too quick to get angry I feel. 

Being involved on the manufacturing side, I think it is important to wait and see if (1) this is an isolated issue due to debris in the casting tool and (2) what will Lionel's response be.  Before this thread gets out of hand bashing Lionel, it would be prudent to see what the official response is and how common the problem is. 

Everyone,  please calm down and re read Jonathan's note above.  Lets see what Lionel's response is. Things like this happen in the real world...

Agreed, GG1 4877.  If the OP...or anyone else....receives a full refund, all is forgiven.

Berkshire President posted:

paulboes posted:

The hobby shop that I ordered my engine from doesn't have anymore Penn Central GG1, and they told me that I have to work with Lionel to resolve the issue since it is a BTO item.

Folks:  I hate to say this, but this is two steps away from FRAUD.  The buyer has received a damaged product and somehow, through no fault of his own, has very limited recourse.

If you aren't offered your money back....straight up....this will be one step away from fraud, IMHO.

States like California or New York that have strict consumer protection laws may find this situation.....interesting.

Time to take off the tinfoil hat and relax..

TrainingDave posted:

Berkshire President posted:

 

Time to take off the tinfoil hat and relax..

"Who's the Fool?  The Fool? Or the Fool who follows Him?" - Ben Kenobi, 1977. 

From my perspective, those voluntarily partaking in BTO are the ones with the tinfoil hats on....not me.

Regardless, I hope Big Orange makes things right by the OP and others with similar issues.

I didn't buy one of these models, don't uy any modern stuff but after taking a close look at the "defects", I would suggest to just get over it, let it slide and run and enjoy it. I would let Lionel know, though.  New cars come with dents too.

Was about to agree with those who said, in effect, "don't worry about it" when I checked the price. 

I'd complain to the CEO he better make it right or refund my money!  My $100 K-Line version looks much better. 

The OGR forum is getting to be a waste of time. It's no longer enjoyable. The negative out ways the positive. Send the engine back to the place of purchase and be done with it.

Rod Miller

romiller49 posted:

The OGR forum is getting to be a waste of time. It's no longer enjoyable. The negative out ways the positive. Send the engine back to the place of purchase and be done with it.

Rod Miller

If only Lionel would stop raising their prices while lowering the quality..............

So far this has not been identified as a quality problem but rather a quality control problem. Until it is clear that a large number of the castings have these defects it is not a quality issue.  One fact of life in modern O scale is that prices rise and the BTO business model exists because we the consumer don't buy enough product to justify overruns.  Inventory on the shelf is negative revenue.  Yes we expect a quality product and deserve it.  However this issue is in Lionel's hands for the time being.

The rest is simply speculation.  I say this as someone who does not purchase new Lionel as they do not satisfy my modeling interests in most cases.  However I support  BTO concept because it is often the only way to get the trains I do want.

Unfortunately, things have defects and certainly this is in my opinion relatively minor considering it looks like a casting imperfection.   What is it?  The size of the head of a toothpick? I would be more concerned if the electronics failed or didn't perform as stated or if the paint lines were uneven or crooked.  Give it some time and I bet the horse you'll get pass it.  If it really is bothering you call Henry Heike and have him weather it thus giving the casting perfection character.

Okay everyone a little update.  I did contact Lionel and they said no problem and sent out a RA number to return it.  However, I do want to make some comments about this engine.  Despite my heartburn with the imperfections in the die-cast area under the window the engine is amazing compared to my JLC version from 10years ago.  The sound system and sounds in general are incredible compared to the JLC version.  I'm still a believer in the Vision Line Series to push the hobby forward from a technology point of view.  Being a software engineer during the day I want to see the hobby go further with electronics.  If we want price to be controlled than it is are responsibility to spread the hobby to younger generations.  Therefore, I challenge everyone to share your experience with the children in the neighborhood.  I know my own kids enjoy the trains, but they really like the Vision Line Products from Lionel and how real they feel.  In addition we put an FPV camera on one of the engines in our layout to give you the experience like your on the train.  That will be the future if we want this hobby to grow with our children.  The kids today are very tech savvy and they want that type of experience with a hobby.  If our hobby doesn't provide experiences that you can feel than the hobby will die off.  They will get that experience from other hobbies like video games and the new quad copters that have built in camera for the flying experience.      

I will post a video later on the Vision Line vs the JLC so you see and hear the difference.

Glad everything worked out for you, Paul....and that Lionel took good (and expedient) care of you.

Lionel will always stand behind problems and thats good.However the heart breakers out of the box are getting out of hand.Nobody inspected the items before they were packaged?Seriously?Nick

paulboes posted:

Okay everyone a little update.  I did contact Lionel and they said no problem and sent out a RA number to return it.  However, I do want to make some comments about this engine.  Despite my heartburn with the imperfections in the die-cast area under the window the engine is amazing compared to my JLC version from 10years ago.  The sound system and sounds in general are incredible compared to the JLC version.  I'm still a believer in the Vision Line Series to push the hobby forward from a technology point of view.  Being a software engineer during the day I want to see the hobby go further with electronics.  If we want price to be controlled than it is are responsibility to spread the hobby to younger generations.  Therefore, I challenge everyone to share your experience with the children in the neighborhood.  I know my own kids enjoy the trains, but they really like the Vision Line Products from Lionel and how real they feel.  In addition we put an FPV camera on one of the engines in our layout to give you the experience like your on the train.  That will be the future if we want this hobby to grow with our children.  The kids today are very tech savvy and they want that type of experience with a hobby.  If our hobby doesn't provide experiences that you can feel than the hobby will die off.  They will get that experience from other hobbies like video games and the new quad copters that have built in camera for the flying experience.      

Paul I agree we have to get younger people into the hobby.Nick

I agree with your approach to getting kids in the hobby.  I couldn't figure that out with my son.  He was video games all the way and found the trains boring.  Even though I had an awesome operating layout.  Good luck keeping them interested.  I couldn't.  And good luck with your GG1.  Cheers.

paulboes posted:

Okay everyone a little update.  I did contact Lionel and they said no problem and sent out a RA number to return it.  However, I do want to make some comments about this engine.  Despite my heartburn with the imperfections in the die-cast area under the window the engine is amazing compared to my JLC version from 10years ago.  The sound system and sounds in general are incredible compared to the JLC version.  I'm still a believer in the Vision Line Series to push the hobby forward from a technology point of view.  Being a software engineer during the day I want to see the hobby go further with electronics.  If we want price to be controlled than it is are responsibility to spread the hobby to younger generations.  Therefore, I challenge everyone to share your experience with the children in the neighborhood.  I know my own kids enjoy the trains, but they really like the Vision Line Products from Lionel and how real they feel.  In addition we put an FPV camera on one of the engines in our layout to give you the experience like your on the train.  That will be the future if we want this hobby to grow with our children.  The kids today are very tech savvy and they want that type of experience with a hobby.  If our hobby doesn't provide experiences that you can feel than the hobby will die off.  They will get that experience from other hobbies like video games and the new quad copters that have built in camera for the flying experience.      

Well, First off, I deserve FORTY LASHES, for over-reacting about this. However, I do wish to encourage LIONEL to up their quality game. Get prices back inline with customer expectations. Which will lead to what Paul said here. We definitely need younger folks to get involved in the Hobby. No doubt about that.

Technology is the main attraction. With all he Bells and Whistles (bad pun I know) on this locomotive, it is one way of demonstrating the cool features available in our Hobby. I know many bemoan the technologies introduced. And that's all well and good. I am a Techno Geek, when it comes to all sorts of gadgets. I do however, wish there was better focus and rationale involved as we move the Hobby forward. But, that's another subject for another discussion elsewhere.

Paul, I hope you find a satisfactory resolution on this. It is a Beautiful Model regardless.