Sparking pantograph without cantenary kind of odd.
shurlock1 posted:Sparking pantograph without cantenary kind of odd.
Running a locomotive that could only be run under catenary without a catenary is kind of odd too 
When you sign a dealer contract you agree not to advertise below specified pricing. It is done for a variety of reasons, one of them is not to create price wars, second, many of the manufacturers whether it is TVs, appliances, cars, etc provide coop marketing dollars where they pick up or finance ads. Car manufacturers are the masters of doing it. If you want coop dollars you follow the program.
Works just fine in my business.
SantaFeFan posted:Well since I have not written the code yet, I better keep this feature in mind....
So we won't see these in March? 
david1 posted:Sorry but for what you get the price is just too high. ...
David, I couldn't agree more. But as you'll see, there are folks here that are very touchy about market observations which point out different alternatives and price comparisons. Almost as if it irritates them. So the prices are what they are, and I'm sure Lionel is gonna sell a boat-load of these GG-1's. Heck, somebody out there might even buy all eight models. That's OK too, 'cause it'll help insure Lionel is around a year from now to publish another catalog with even higher prices. 
Probably the only thing we'll all agree on here.
David
Big Jim posted:WftTrains posted:I can’t wait to see what a “RIVITED” GG-1 looks like as Lionel calls it in the catalog. Whoever wrote that probably grew up playing with Hot Wheels “Rivited” cars. The proofreaders let that one slip by!
Bill
Looks like this:
Not interested in a GG-1 but am curious if the riveted versions will come with barely there "O" scale rivets or the more common monster "G" scale rivets.
MartyE posted:SantaFeFan posted:Well since I have not written the code yet, I better keep this feature in mind....
So we won't see these in March?
What year? Sorry couldn't resist.
"somebody out there might even buy all eight models. "
Ok maybe eight
I'm sorry to say that the Lionel price is a little out of my reach. 
My God, for that kind of money I can get a room in Patterson the next ten times I visit the NJ Highrailers. 
Save all that wasted drive time!
"somebody out there might even buy all eight models. "
We all ready had a person do that, many are ordering 2-3.
Grampstrains posted:Dominic Mazoch posted:The price to me is shocking!
I was shocked too. I thought it would be more.
+1...
I think you guys are getting raped on this one. Much like the Anniversary locomotives.
Wow, so much positive negativity, and the product has not been shown in its true Vision....Well, My Question is, which GG1 Pulled the Congressional Passenger Train. Although my smaller print for the catalog pricing is blurry, is it $1399? Also, has anyone seen the Early order pricing? I am a Player.....Thanks Lionel...
Why are the pans sparking? There's no catenary up there.
Above: "Pricing is just right in my opinion ~ $1150 for a Vision product. Not too bad." Huh?
I had forgotten the "Bicentennial" GG1 paint job. It took me a while, but now I have to forget it all over again.
Here you go Larry!
D500 posted:Why are the pans sparking? There's no catenary up there.
...
I actually like the fact that there's some creativity going into these "re-issued" products. And the effect I saw at York was cool -- even though it struck me more as a strobe instead of electrical arcing. Maybe a bit more randomness in the effect might make it more believable. We just need enough to spark our imagination. Sorry, i couldn't resist.
Price is still too high though. Even the dealer cost is too high. And I don't like the word on the street that Lionel is reportedly setting a minimum "selling" price for dealers under the guise of MAP. Dealers can advertise publicly at MAP, but they should be free to sell at whatever price they want to buyers without Lionel threatening to cut off product. Lionel is already getting their piece of the action regardless. So why should they care? 
The MAP of $1190 correlates to a 15% discount off the $1399 MSRP. Lots of dealers sold the VL Big Boy for $2K (and some sold it for less), and that correlated to a 25% discount off MSRP. For the VL GG1, a 25% discount would be closer to $1025, and I'm sure many dealers would sell more units if they could drop their selling price to $995. But that would be below what one dealer has posted as his cost... which means the internal costs are artificially high to begin with. 
David
Almost got through one without a price comment. Ewwwwww so close.
MartyE posted:Almost got through one without a price comment. Ewwwwww so close.
Just for you, Marty, I added a few more snippets of pricing analysis comparing the VL Big Boy's discount level with that of the VL GG1.
David
I bet everybody runs and hides when David walks into the local grocery/department store. 
Certainly car dealerships don't have a chance when their prices go up $500 -$1000 every year.
D500 posted:Why are the pans sparking? There's no catenary up there.
Above: "Pricing is just right in my opinion ~ $1150 for a Vision product. Not too bad." Huh?
I had forgotten the "Bicentennial" GG1 paint job. It took me a while, but now I have to forget it all over again.
Oh remember...Remember! And with the sparking pantos, you can pretend they're fireworks being lit from the cab! Anyway you cut the mustard, it'll be fun, and that's what we all yearn for twice a year when these catalogs come out.
A dealer could stand out from the other dealers who are all offering the same MAP price by giving us free shipping on the GG-1 preorders. I could see this resulting in more orders, new customers, and priceless goodwill among men.
Craignor posted:A dealer could stand out from the other dealers and the same MAP price by giving us free shipping on the GG-1 preorders. I could see more orders, new customers, and priceless goodwill.
Absolutely! Another possibility is to offer a combo deal with another product or other products. 
Lots of ways to be creative, so the dealers can "appear" to live by Lionel's MAP request, yet offer a much more competitive price overall and still make money on the deal.
David
Charlienassau posted:"somebody out there might even buy all eight models. "
We all ready had a person do that...
Hope you gave him a great deal for buying 8 of them, Charlie!!!
A few comments:
1. Just my opinion, but a typical GG1 model with a gimmicky "sparking" pantograph doesn't a Vision product make. Not knocking the VL GG1, but my idea of a Vision product isn't a gimmicky item. Rather, it's likely going to be a steamer because of the opportunity for multiple cutting edge features that Cowan would have embraced. Wish the Allegheny was the VL product and had all the amazing smoke features of the VL Challenger. That would have been impressive.
2. I don't yet know the details of what's being discussed in this thread, but creating an artificial minimum price at which dealers are being mandated to sell could spell competitive compliance trouble. It has in very many other commercial settings.
3. It's easy to knock people who complain about price hikes, because it's cool to feel like a big shot. Ego aside, the cost of raw materials continues to plummet. And the design and technology are earned-out, so no capex there either. Chinese labor cannot explain the escalation over the past several years. Which begs the question - why the big step price increases? Kind of a turn off when you know the facts.
Peter
Lionel's online catalog shows GG1 drawings not actual photos. Zooming in just shows lousier pixels.
Can't commit to everything in the catalog nor do I have any of these I will be selective, SP GS-4, then Allegheny then the GG1.
PJB posted:
3. It's easy to knock people who complain about price hikes, because it's cool to feel like a big shot. Ego aside, the cost of raw materials continues to plummet. And the design and technology are earned-out, so no capex there either. Chinese labor cannot explain the escalation over the past several years. Which begs the question - why the big step price increases? Kind of a turn off when you know the facts.
Peter
Lionel mine's a vein of demographic gold. Some just have to have it. I'm not immune either but it has to be a real performer and eye catcher. With the to date Yuan devaluation and more to come; rational market pressures should move model train vendors to reduce pricing. Not sure the high end model train market would be characterized as always rational.
The GG1 is not something that I have any emotional legacy(read not a north easterner) with and so wouldn't buy one. Didn't get one from the conventional classic era so at this VL price can't see it. To me the GG1 styling is a face only a mother could love.
It would be a desirable locomotive to those who grew up around them. Hopefully L delivers it with a great sound package, top notch performance and high quality scale fit/finish .
PREDICTION> THESE GG1s are going to be like the metal ES44ACs, we complained about the prices then and see them almost DOUBLE in re-sale now!!
I'm new to O gauge modeling and to this forum but I became hooked when I bought the VL Big Boy. It lead me to get the VL Clinchfield Challenger from Gryzbowski's trains, VL UP Challenger #3976 greyhound from OGR forum, and a JLC Allegheny. Lionel's VL GG1 should be just as spectacular. Check out all of the features of the new VL GG1and compare it to the JLC GG1, Please $1190 is the least expensive price point of all of their Vision Line locomotives. The Brunswick Green will be a very dark greenish black when delivered. Everyone should listen to Notch 6 podcast interview with Lionel personnel about the 2016 signature catalog. I myself is thinking about getting 2. Definitely the #4935 with the broadway limited passenger cars and it's a toss up between the rivited #4899 or the Penn Central #4838 with the Penn Central passenger cars.
LOl now that's funny right there. Big shot. LOL.
"Because you had to be a big shot, didn't you
You had to open up your mouth...
You had to be a big shot, didn't you,
All your friends were so knocked out...
You had to have the last word, last night,
You know what everything's about.....
You had to have a white hot spotlight,
You had to be a big shot last night"
Billy Joel in Pittsburgh July 1st. Hopefully he knows more than 1 tune.
EJN
I agree with you with regarding to the weakened Chinese currency. That plus very low oil prices should have caused the prices of Chinese imports to come down, not up! Goodness, it cost half as much to ship Chinese items to our shore due to the fact that the fuel oil used by the ships that transport them is that much cheaper.
They are taking advantage of us consumers now. So unfair.
Steve
RickO posted:MartyE posted:Billy Joel in Pittsburgh July 1st. Hopefully he knows more than 1 tune.
I wonder how much the ticket prices have gone up since the last time he was in town? Especially considering the seats were paid for years ago.
RickO I think someone is using your account to post.
Pricing is pricing, design and development, new technology cost, tooling costs, warranty, sales, marketing - manufacturers and dealers are not in business to give away product. They need to make money to stay in business and offer more items. If you like it, buy it, if you don't like it, don't buy it. It's your money. The power of the pocket book speaks volumes.
This should be more about the "product." Yes, price is an issue. I am more interest in learning about how these models compare to the ones in service years ago, prototypical? color? Represent what ran the rails, technology features.
How many of you have a pantograph? I don't, but I like the GG1 in the 2016 catalog but I may or may not buy one.
Just ask Ford, GM, Chrysler, they produced crap in the late 70's, 80's, 90's and a good portion of 00's, quality stunk, designs stunk, poor performing machines. Over priced poorly designed cars and trucks which let the foreign manufacturers beat them - They all should have gone out of business, gone through bankruptcy court, not be bailed out.
Do we want Lionel, MTH, Atlas, 3rd rail to disappear? I don't think so which is why they have a wide variety of product and prices.
This is why you have build to order - its all about supply chain management, not flooding the market and a price that reflects costs through the chain. SRP, who pays SRP? Your nuts if you do.
PSU1980 posted:Pricing is pricing, design and development, new technology cost, tooling costs, warranty, sales, marketing - manufacturers and dealers are not in business to give away product. They need to make money to stay in business and offer more items. If you like it, buy it, if you don't like it, don't buy it. It's your money. The power of the pocket book speaks volumes.
This should be more about the "product." Yes, price is an issue. I am more interest in learning about how these models compare to the ones in service years ago, prototypical? color? Represent what ran the rails, technology features.
??? You do realize that your reply is a canned statement that has nothing to do with the real-life circumstances of what's being discussed ... right? Design, development, new technology and tooling capex and increased costs issues are all non-existent here. And, the fact that the price discussion, as it relates to this particular item, is a function of some people feeling "the product" is not commensurate with the price. So, yes, the discussion IS about the product. My own opinion, however, is sort of similar to your own - buy it if you like it and want to spend whatever it ends up stickered at.
To respond to another comment about the "price point" being the lowest on this VL product in comparison to all other - I think this is a fair statement, but it potentially completely misses the point. That's almost like saying: "Cadillac just released a car that's identical in every respect to a $30k Chevy, but hey, it's a good deal because it has the Cadillac emblem on it, has a wing on the back, and because all other Cadillacs cost $80k and this one only costs $60k, so its the lowest priced Cadillac." In essence, I tend to think that on an apples-to-apples basis, steam locomotives are more costly to produce than diesels and electrics because steamers tend to have so many more gapparent moving parts requiring more labor and attention to ensure proper function - from running gear to articulation point, etc. And, they have a higher level of hand-applied detail. Finally, they typically can include more mechanical functions, like synchronized chuffing smoke, dynamo and cylinder steam, swinging bell, blow-down, depleting coal load. Out of my own ignorance as to manufacturer cost for all this, I would naturally assume the cost associated in producing virtually any VL diesel or electric would be less.
The last scale GG-1 from Lionel was the JLC GG-1 in 2007 Catalog 1, the catalog price was $899 , what was the Preorder price on those...anyone remember?
Craig what would that $899 MSRP would be in todays market with the inflation rate in 2007? I believe today it would be more than $1399
Charlienassau----Send me an email with your BTO pricing sent to Tennessee, 37042....I am interested in the brown one to pull the Congressional set............(Larrylevin71@yahoo.com) For the record, I sell Honda Automobiles and Nobody knows How Low We Will Go, because we are Unable to advertise below Invoice.....WOW, That's a Fact!!! Happy Railroading
I PAID $800.00 for my Green 5 stripe JLC #4876 back in 2005. To me $1189 seems about right. Thinking about getting two. The Tuscan 4913 and old rivets 4800.
